Polygamy question

[Let_Us_Reason]

How is this any different from personal revelation?

It's not. Look at it this way.

Charismatic prophet teaching a new, grand way.

The followers hear and listen to him, but don't really seek out the revelation themselves. They just believe the prophet because he seems so strong and convincing.

God commands prophet to practive polygamy. Prophet reveals God's will

The followers initially freak out. What? How can our good prophet reveal something like plural marriage. I just believed before, but I need to pray and know now. I'm not going to stop praying until God gives me an answer.

This is what I believe MaidServant is saying.

After the followers received this amazing and hard new commandment, it forced them to become prophets, i.e. receive revelation, get a testimony, etc. God wanted "prophets" among his people. People so sure of the commandment and their testimonies that they wouldn't fall away later when harder times were coming.

It wasn't that God wanted prophets to propagate their DNA so that the children would automatically have stronger faith just because they had the prophet's DNA.

Does that make sense?

(More importantly, does MaidServant agree with my summation of her belief?)

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

Another conjecture is that the people were few in number and that the Church, desiring greater numbers, permitted the practice so that a phenomenal increase in population could be attained. This is not defensible, since there was no surplus of women.

This never occurred to me, even though I knew there weren't more women than men but it is, in fact, obvious that polygamy does not result in more progeny because it doesn't change the number of fertile women. That also means, however, that the reason for polygamy given in the BoM - to raise up seed unto God - is faulty.

After clearing up all common misunderstandings, Widtsoe is left with only one explanation:

The simple truth and the only acceptable explanation, is that the principle of plural marriage came as a revelation from the Lord to the Prophet Joseph Smith for the Church.

While this is an explanation, it does not provide a reason why God might have commanded it.

What if there were a surplus of WORTHY men over women and "to raise up seed unto God" is not just to raise up more seed amongst Mormons, but specifically more seed born under the covenant.

[zeezrom]

Quality over Quantity? To raise up prophets? Raise more kids steeped in Mormonism? Because God wanted it? Are you serious?

Polygamy is defended simply because if you don't defend it the church looks bad.

[selek]

Polygamy is defended simply because if you don't defend it the church looks bad.

Says the apostate who's last three dozen posts were made only to make the Church look bad.

Did you get tired of bad-mouthing the Church and high-fiving with the other Sons of Perdition, JudasZeezrom?

[zeezrom]

Says the apostate who's last three dozen posts were made only to make the Church look bad.

Did you get tired of bad-mouthing the Church and high-fiving with the other Sons of Perdition, JudasZeezrom?

I didn't bad mouth the Church I just spoke out against a little tiny practice that has long since been forgotten.

Your sons of perdition comment reminded me - TBMs really do think someone who decides Joseph Smith is not a prophet will never be forgiven. What a wild belief. Have fun with that.

[selek]

I didn't bad mouth the Church I just spoke out against a little tiny practice that has long since been forgotten.

Your sons of perdition comment reminded me - TBMs really do think someone who decides Joseph Smith is not a prophet will never be forgiven. What a wild belief. Have fun with that.

Incorrect.

We believe that those who knowingly war against Christ's Church will have a very difficult time being forgiven.

I look forward to hearing your self-justifications and watching your self-mortification.

I daresay you will likewise enjoy my turn at the wheel.

[rodheadlee]

Would the Church have been persecuted so, if it were not for polygamy? Would the Saints have gathered and moved to Utah to grow and to sit out the Civil War, without polygamy?

[USU78]

Would the Church have been persecuted so, if it were not for polygamy? Would the Saints have gathered and moved to Utah to grow and to sit out the Civil War, without polygamy?

Mayhap.

Yet there was nary a hint of polygyny in the motivations for the "old settlers" in Missouri in either 1833 or 1837/38. And some pretty awful stuff went on.

It was Missouri's fury over the petitions for redress that led them to push Illinois in the 1840s for extradition of JSJr.

It was Illinois fury over JSJr's successful efforts in avoiding extradition that led to Mormon assassinations, predations and, ultimately, expulsion.

Given this history, it seems later open polygyny is rather an excuse and a pretext.

[wenglund]

While this is an explanation, it does not provide a reason why God might have commanded it. The only reason I am left with, therefore, is the one from anthropology, i.e. that a large number of wives is a tribal status symbol, a sign of power and wealth. This explanation fits very well with the fact the polygamy was mainly practised by church leaders and less so by the general membership.

I don't see the sense of looking to secular disciplines like anthropology in trying to figure out the reasoning of God--for his thoughts are not our thoughts. To do so would be to risk conforming God to the image of man, rather than vice-versa as God intends.

In fact, doing so tends to run contrary to the methods for descerning God's reasoning as he has revealed.

Besides, God has given us a general reason for most any, if not all, of his commands. That being: "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." Then, the ultimate intent behind the command as last practiced more than 100 years ago, was to enable, in whatever way, those in that day to come unto Christ and become more like him, just as his commanding us today not to practice polygamy will enable us, in whatever way, to come to Christ and be like him. No real mystery there (at least not for those with eyes to see and ears to here).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Jason]

Quality over Quantity? To raise up prophets? Raise more kids steeped in Mormonism? Because God wanted it? Are you serious?

Polygamy is defended simply because if you don't defend it the church looks bad.

Your comment could not be any more mistaken if you actively tried.

I have four polygamous ancestors, and I can verify that at least one family that obeyed the commandment to engage in plural marriage became stronger in the Church and raised up rightous seed, just as the Book of Mormon says.

[Ariarates]

Thanks for the replies everyone; I would like to respond to some of them and while this may come across as argumentative, I really want to get to the bottom of this, so please forgive my contrariness.

@Lehi: your math only works for men: more children for polygamous men, not more children on the whole. The BoM talks about raising up seed unto the Lord, not unto men.

@William James: I haven

[LeSellers]

Lehi: your math only works for men: more children for polygamous men, not more children on the whole. The BoM talks about raising up seed unto the Lord, not unto men.

You have, I believe, missed the context.

To be sure, the numbers work for men (as I stated). But the point is the leaders of the Church were largely men. And, because leaders of the Church, their seed was raised up unto the Lord. That was the whole point.

Lehi

[Maidservant]

Pardon my obtuseness, but isn't that what prayer is? You don't need fabfantastic prophet DNA in order to get a clear answer from God.

I don't think that's what she's saying.

She's not saying literal children of the prophets, but that the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy and since this commandment was so far out of their comfort zone, they had to really pray and strive to know the truth themselves, i.e. become a prophet by getting revelation.

A very interesting theory that I'd never heard before. Not sure I believe it, but definitely thought-provoking.

How is this any different from personal revelation?

It's not. Look at it this way.

Charismatic prophet teaching a new, grand way.

The followers hear and listen to him, but don't really seek out the revelation themselves. They just believe the prophet because he seems so strong and convincing.

God commands prophet to practive polygamy. Prophet reveals God's will

The followers initially freak out. What? How can our good prophet reveal something like plural marriage. I just believed before, but I need to pray and know now. I'm not going to stop praying until God gives me an answer.

This is what I believe MaidServant is saying.

After the followers received this amazing and hard new commandment, it forced them to become prophets, i.e. receive revelation, get a testimony, etc. God wanted "prophets" among his people. People so sure of the commandment and their testimonies that they wouldn't fall away later when harder times were coming.

It wasn't that God wanted prophets to propagate their DNA so that the children would automatically have stronger faith just because they had the prophet's DNA.

Does that make sense?

(More importantly, does MaidServant agree with my summation of her belief?)

Sorry, staccato, for any misunderstanding. I was not extending the raise righteous seed argument; I was going in another direction, and I think Let Us Reason said it quite well. (Although, as Jason says, I too have seen the effects of polygamy in the family history, and it is quite miraculous actually. Although that would be anecdotal, not a "reason" for me.)

By the way, the point was so that these people could have personal, direct revelation for many circumstances subsequent to the polygamy question. I have had the best personal revelation when I have had no other direction to go--either God would answer me or my life would explode (I imagined), and I have never been disappointed in being able to receive revelation under such a circumstance; and in order to learn how to receive it at other times. But that's just me.

This reconciliation that I explained, is the answer I personally received when I asked my Father in heaven about polygamy, through pondering and praying and learning. Whether it is the best answer, one of many answers, the only answer, or merely an answer he thought I could handle, I don't know. But I thought it was rather an "a ha" moment for myself.

[USU78]

Quality over Quantity? To raise up prophets? Raise more kids steeped in Mormonism? Because God wanted it? Are you serious?

Wasn't it Moses who said, "[W]ould God that all the LORD's people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!"

So I ask zeezrom, why would a G-d worthy of the name not want more prophets? Why would He not want more kids growing up to become prophets? Why would He not want that each of His children should be strong, good-looking, and above average?

[wenglund]

@Wade:

[wenglund]

You have, I believe, missed the context.

To be sure, the numbers work for men (as I stated). But the point is the leaders of the Church were largely men. And, because leaders of the Church, their seed was raised up unto the Lord. That was the whole point. Lehi

In other words, numerically, there were far less male leaders of the Church than women in the Church. So the numbers do work in the way you suggested.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[zeezrom]

Wasn't it Moses who said, "[W]ould God that all the LORD's people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!"

So I ask zeezrom, why would a G-d worthy of the name not want more prophets? Why would He not want more kids growing up to become prophets? Why would He not want that each of His children should be strong, good-looking, and above average?

I'm failing to understand how polygamy can provide the world better people (that God can make use of, be it a prophet or whatever).

[Nomad]

I'm failing to understand how polygamy can provide the world better people (that God can make use of, be it a prophet or whatever).

Have you ever considered that the sole purpose of plural marriage in early Mormonism was simply to "multiply the seed" of a certain select group of men? After that purpose was fulfilled, the practice was placed in "abeyance" until such time as God decides (if ever) that he'd like to see that happen again? Just a thought. I could be wrong, and I wouldn't care if I am. But I have thought that this could be as likely an answer as any.

[Jason]

I'm failing to understand how polygamy can provide the world better people (that God can make use of, be it a prophet or whatever).

Which produces children better-suited to Church? God-fearing parents who love their kids and teach them by their actions that they are willing to do whatever the Lord commands them regardless of the sacrifice, or parents who never tell their kids anything about God, never go to church, and are as selfish in their actions as can be?

[zeezrom]

Your comment could not be any more mistaken if you actively tried.

I have four polygamous ancestors, and I can verify that at least one family that obeyed the commandment to engage in plural marriage became stronger in the Church and raised up rightous seed, just as the Book of Mormon says.

I am descended from polygamists as well, one of which helped build the St. George temple. I think highly of my ancestors but I'm sorry they had to practice polygamy. I'm not ashamed of them and I'm happy to tell anyone they were polygamists. They thought they were doing the right thing in their practice. Luckily, they are done with it now that they have left this mortal state.

[zeezrom]

Which produces children better-suited to Church? God-fearing parents who love their kids and teach them by their actions that they are willing to do whatever the Lord commands them regardless of the sacrifice, or parents who never tell their kids anything about God, never go to church, and are as selfish in their actions as can be?

Selfishness is a failing indeed.

[zeezrom]

Have you ever considered that the sole purpose of plural marriage in early Mormonism was simply to "multiply the seed" of a certain select group of men? After that purpose was fulfilled, the practice was placed in "abeyance" until such time as God decides (if ever) that he'd like to see that happen again? Just a thought. I could be wrong, and I wouldn't care if I am. But I have thought that this could be as likely an answer as any.

I have considered that. It could be as you say, or it could be that God does not take part in it all.

[Darth J]

I have four polygamous ancestors, and I can verify that at least one family that obeyed the commandment to engage in plural marriage became stronger in the Church and raised up rightous seed, just as the Book of Mormon says.

And just look at all those people in central Utah, northern Arizona, Texas, and Canada who have polygamous ancestors that obeyed the commandment to engage in plural marriage and became stronger in the Church and raised up a righteous seed.

[Darth J]

You have, I believe, missed the context.

To be sure, the numbers work for men (as I stated). But the point is the leaders of the Church were largely men. And, because leaders of the Church, their seed was raised up unto the Lord. That was the whole point.

Lehi

For instance, all of those children Joseph Smith had with his plural wives, per this particular justification of polygamy..................

[staccato]

Is it a sign of vanity or pride to believe your seed is more important or righteous than someone else?