Spalding's handwriting found in BoM manuscript?

[rodheadlee]

i only found the reference to the mag. Moody Mag. does not have archived volumes that I could find.

all in all though, i find it suprising that anyone would attribute the "unknown scribe" to Spaulding.

I agree.

If the alleged shooting occured between 5 am and 8pm there should have been many witnesses as the freeways here have been jammed during this time period for decades.

[USU78]

News Flash: Motorist on the 91 Freeway cuts off Angelino . . . bullets fired . . . none hurt.

USU "When you hear hoofbeats . . ." 78

[avmanart]

Dear Selek, or whatever your name is,

Is this the best you can do? Slanderous comments? We had "ample motive - both monetary and ideological"? Oh, this is just too juicy. Please, dear sir, show me the proof of your claims. What a petty little self-absorbed person you are. You want proof about the crime? Go to the Torrance, California Police Department and check it out for yourself. It was also in Moody Monthly at that time. You can't make it go away so all that is left for you is pathetic ridicule and slander. People have been sued for much less. You think it was contrived? Well then, prove it - or keep your thoughts to yourself.

Penchant for stretching the truth? Show me where. You made the statement, so now back it up with facts. Credibility issues? Give some facts and not innuendo. But then, that's all you have, isn't it? And please, don't try to bring up the Oliver Cowdery/Wayne Cowdrey ancestry thing because neither Wayne, nor Howard, nor Don had any say in the claims made in the book about Wayne being a direct descendant. That was all done by the publisher and Walter Martin, not the guys. Wayne was publicly asked if he was Oliver's descendant and he publicly said no - over 30 years ago.

Mormons are always to quick to play the victim and demand respect and courtesy from "gentiles", but seem to forget that the street goes both ways. You want respect and courtesy, well then, give it first and then we'll talk.

Conspiracy sells, eh? Show me even one major newspaper article that carried any news about the bullet that lodged itself in Howard's car.

I had the notion that somehow if I posted some legitimate comments about the scribe pages and events surrounding the experts' testimonies that I would get some rational discussion. Pretty much without exception, the only decent commentary has come from Dale. It doesn't both me at all that he disagrees with me. It may even be that his findings are correct. At this point in time, however, I don't yet agree but I'll keep an open mind about it. No matter how one slices it, it still seems to me that the church leadership went to an awful lot of trouble to discredit what they believed to be nonsensical findings about the unidentified scribe pages.

As far as the threats and violence, you have made the same mistake that so many other shoot from the hip types have made - namely that I accused the Mormons fo the violence. Show me where the accusation was made? All that I said was that the violence happened in such a way as to think there was a connection. Do I think any Mormon in his right mind would do such a thing? Hardly, but as we all know, there are a lot of religious nuts in the world, and they have committed some terrible crimes in the name of some religion or another. I tend to lean toward the polygamous group end of things, and at one time it was suggested that perhaps someone associated with the Colonia LeBaron may have had something to do with it.

It would seem to me that intelligent and objective discussion is not the goal at this forum. Rather, your opinion is the only one that is permitted. So be it. You're certainly not worth the effort of further comment.

For those from the area who were wondering when it occurred, it was at night, around 9 pm, I think. Definitely after dark. It was on the 405 freeway in the South Bay bend, I think, not too far from Crenshaw Blvd. Only one or two shots were fired because Howard was passing a Highway Patrol car when it happened. The whole thing is a matter of public record, and there was a bullet pulled out of the car.

AV

It needs to be pointed out that Vanark and his co-conspirators...all of whom now appear to have had serious credibility issues...had ample motive- both monetary and ideological- to fake threats and incidents of intimidation.

"If it bleeds it leads" is axiomatic in the press, and controversy and conspiracy sell. The tin foil hat crowd loves intrigue and psuedo-Danite assassination attempts merely amp up the titillation.

The accusers in this instance had every reason to hype up the drama... and really....how hard is it to put a stray round into a car, drive to a particular stretch of highway and then claim you were shot at?

Was the car disabled? Did it crash as a result of the gunfire? Was the expended round ever found?

There are too many holes and too few facts to take the story at face value.

Was the round firef by a random nutter and the accuser- whether from foaming at the mouth paranoia or foaming at the mouth opportunism, simply taking advantage?

As has been demonstrated, the alleged victims of the "threats" flatly denied it. Was the "shooting" a desperate attempt to revive a dying scam? That way lies Hoffman...so there IS precedent.

There are too many unknown variables- not the least of which are the accuser's known penchant for stretching the truth.

[USU78]

For those from the area who were wondering when it occurred, it was at night, around 9 pm, I think. Definitely after dark. It was on the 405 freeway in the South Bay bend, I think, not too far from Crenshaw Blvd. Only one or two shots were fired because Howard was passing a Highway Patrol car when it happened. The whole thing is a matter of public record, and there was a bullet pulled out of the car.

If we grant all of this, avmanart, we still have a problem: We don't know whose gun and whose finger on the trigger.

If we did, there would have been charges.

By your admission, there haven't been charges.

So what we're left with is a theory without evidence.

Why should we credit this theory rather than a "random act of not particularly unusual, alas, violence on the 405" theory?

[Jeff K.]

When can we see the black helicopters with the gold angel Moroni paintings on them?

[selek]

Dear Selek, or whatever your name is,

Is this the best you can do? Slanderous comments? We had "ample motive - both monetary and ideological"? Oh, this is just too juicy. Please, dear sir, show me the proof of your claims. What a petty little self-absorbed person you are. You want proof about the crime? Go to the Torrance, California Police Department and check it out for yourself. It was also in Moody Monthly at that time. You can't make it go away so all that is left for you is pathetic ridicule and slander. People have been sued for much less. You think it was contrived? Well then, prove it - or keep your thoughts to yourself.

Penchant for stretching the truth? Show me where. You made the statement, so now back it up with facts. Credibility issues? Give some facts and not innuendo. But then, that's all you have, isn't it? And please, don't try to bring up the Oliver Cowdery/Wayne Cowdrey ancestry thing because neither Wayne, nor Howard, nor Don had any say in the claims made in the book about Wayne being a direct descendant. That was all done by the publisher and Walter Martin, not the guys. Wayne was publicly asked if he was Oliver's descendant and he publicly said no - over 30 years ago.

Mormons are always to quick to play the victim and demand respect and courtesy from "gentiles", but seem to forget that the street goes both ways. You want respect and courtesy, well then, give it first and then we'll talk.

Conspiracy sells, eh? Show me even one major newspaper article that carried any news about the bullet that lodged itself in Howard's car.

I had the notion that somehow if I posted some legitimate comments about the scribe pages and events surrounding the experts' testimonies that I would get some rational discussion. Pretty much without exception, the only decent commentary has come from Dale. It doesn't both me at all that he disagrees with me. It may even be that his findings are correct. At this point in time, however, I don't yet agree but I'll keep an open mind about it. No matter how one slices it, it still seems to me that the church leadership went to an awful lot of trouble to discredit what they believed to be nonsensical findings about the unidentified scribe pages.

As far as the threats and violence, you have made the same mistake that so many other shoot from the hip types have made - namely that I accused the Mormons fo the violence. Show me where the accusation was made? All that I said was that the violence happened in such a way as to think there was a connection. Do I think any Mormon in his right mind would do such a thing? Hardly, but as we all know, there are a lot of religious nuts in the world, and they have committed some terrible crimes in the name of some religion or another. I tend to lean toward the polygamous group end of things, and at one time it was suggested that perhaps someone associated with the Colonia LeBaron may have had something to do with it.

It would seem to me that intelligent and objective discussion is not the goal at this forum. Rather, your opinion is the only one that is permitted. So be it. You're certainly not worth the effort of further comment.

For those from the area who were wondering when it occurred, it was at night, around 9 pm, I think. Definitely after dark. It was on the 405 freeway in the South Bay bend, I think, not too far from Crenshaw Blvd. Only one or two shots were fired because Howard was passing a Highway Patrol car when it happened. The whole thing is a matter of public record, and there was a bullet pulled out of the car.

AV

Judging by the volume of the shrieking, I think I struck a nerve.

[Darth J]

I know I came in late, but what does basketball have to do with The Book of Mormon, anyway?

[wenglund]

I know I came in late, but what does basketball have to do with The Book of Mormon, anyway?

People have theorized that the Spalding logo was plagerized from earlier statues of the Angel Moroni.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[frankenstein]

AV how are the inconsistencies in the Unknown scribe and Spaulding explained away? The inconsistencies I noted are stylized characters not found in Spaulding's writings.

[Wiki Wonka]

What when this story first broke, the Church News published a detailed article by Dean Jesse, which included photographs of the relevant handwriting from Spalding, the Book of Mormon, and the D&C scribe. (I think I still have my copy at home somewhere.) The difference from Spalding was obvious. What was not obvious was why anyone would suppose identity in the first place. The whole thing collapsed very quickly, and the "experts" quickly backpedaled.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

I have a copy of the Church News article published August 20, 1977 called "'Spalding Theory' re-examined," by Dean Jessee. I've scanned it to PDF, but haven't extracted all the text yet. Here's part of it (I've tried to correct all of the scan errors):

A. The formation of the capital letters A, C, D, E, H, I, K, L, N, P, S, T, U, W,the lower-case letters c, s, r, x, the combination "wh" and the ampersand (&). (See Exhibit D) The personal pronoun "I" is frequently written with a small "i" by the Book of Mormon writer, a peculiarity that never occurs with Spalding.

Unlike the Book of Mormon scribe, Spalding uses the ampersand (&) almost exclusively in the place of "and."

The old form "j " is used extensively by Spalding for his lower-case, single "s," a peculiarity that does not occur in the Book of Mormon. Spalding's lower-case "c" is written like an undotted "i." It has no curve to it, unlike that of the Book of Mormon writer.

B. The two manuscripts do not show the same continuity and flow in their word formation. The Book of Mormon writer's habit of lifting his pen from the paper in the formation of words occurs with more frequency and in different places than does Spalding's.

(See Exhibit D)

C. A comparison of the penmanship of the two manuscripts shows that Spalding's Dartmouth College education made him a better penman than the Book of Mormon clerk. However, if Spalding is accepted as the author of the 12 Book of Mormon pages, it is impossible to explain the deterioration of his penmanship following the writing of his earlier "Manuscript

Story."

D. Spalding shows greater skill as a penman than does the Book of Mormon scribe: Both writers misspell different words and the Book of Mormon scribe misspells more simple words. For example, the Book of Mormon scribe consistently

[rodheadlee]

For those from the area who were wondering when it occurred, it was at night, around 9 pm, I think. Definitely after dark. It was on the 405 freeway in the South Bay bend, I think, not too far from Crenshaw Blvd. Only one or two shots were fired because Howard was passing a Highway Patrol car when it happened. The whole thing is a matter of public record, and there was a bullet pulled out of the car.

AV

That would be the edge or outskirts of the shooting gallery/killing zone, even back in 1977. No freeway is exempt these days.

We had a drive by at the pharmacy I frequent last week. A young woman was seriously injured.

[Uncle Dale]

...

I've scanned it to PDF

...

If you want to make the proofread text available, I can

post it here:

http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/UT/utahmsc3.htm

Intellectual Reserve gets antsy over reproduced copyrighted

texts that are too long -- so it would be helpful to know

approximately how many words were printed in the Church News

section that week. If Jessee is less than 10%, I think we

could get away with posting the article on the web.

I no longer have the Nov. 1977 Moody Monthly article on Mr. Davis,

so I can't reproduce that for a contemporary readership ... sorry.

UD

[Cold Steel]

Watch -- and learn.

Amen. The only true "magician" is Uncle Dale, who somehow managed to end up in Hawaii while the rest of us are schlucking it out on the mainland.

[Darth J]

People have theorized that the Spalding logo was plagerized from earlier statues of the Angel Moroni.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wait a minute.....

Little gold basketball player logo on the ball.....

Gold angel Moroni.......

And someone's going to say that's just a coincidence.

[avmanart]

Judging by the volume of the shrieking, I think I struck a nerve.

Nothing that hasn't been heard before. I just considered the source and felt that some sort of answer was needed but I can see that it was a waste of time in this kangaroo court.

[Uncle Dale]

...

true "magician"

...

What is more magical, is the fact that an acknowledged Latter Day Saint can

promote the Spalding-Rigdon authorship explanation, and still be accepted in

a forum such as this one, racking up thousands upon thousands of MB postings,

and not be ostracized/marginalized by his saintly peers.

But -- such things happen now and then. The Mormon Apologetics & Discussion Board

can pat itself upon the back in such instances, (even if my buddy Art is made to

feel less than wanted).

Maybe he should try moving to Hawaii.

UD

.

[selek]

Nothing that hasn't been heard before.

No doubt. I can't be the only skeptic of your tin-foil-and-black-helicopters conspiracy mongering.

I just considered the source

And yet you admitted above that you don't know me. How can you consider a source you've never met, never analyzed in detail, and have no hope of meeting?

You're not going to make some bigoted statement about ALL Mormons now, are you?

and felt that some sort of answer was needed but I can see that it was a waste of time in this kangaroo court.

Ah. You are.

For the record...there's no court, no trial, and quite frankly....no evidence.

You've presented nothing to substantiate your charges, and nothing to validate your claims. Just innuendo and half-frenzied conspiracy theories that don't fit the facts.

And despite your mealy-mouthed denials to the contrary, you HAVE attempted to insinuate that the Church and its members were behind the alleged (and thus far unsubstantiated) acts of intimidation and violence.

My earlier post made no accusations- I simply turned your own standard of "evidence" against you and pointed out a reasonable, logical, possibility.

With the evidence mounting against your theories, your experts back-pedaling from your claims, and your hypothesis dissolving into the feverish mists from whence it arose, you had ample incentive to play the "conspiracy" and "the Mormons are trying to silence us" cards.

Your fellow-traveller Hoffman likewise got desperate when his schemes began to unravel- so why not you?

More relevent to the point, how do you deal with the inescapably damning evidence that Spaulding could not have authored the texts you "analyzed" having been dead DECADES before the pieces were penned?

Your argument has been shattered as thoroughly as rock candy dropped off the top of the Eiffel Tower, and you're throwing up pseudo-outrage and fevered smokescreens about your victimhood to distract from that incontrovertible fact.

So long as you're focusing on the "conspiracy" theories and the alleged shooting, you can (attempt, at least, to) ingore the fact that your snake oil has evaporated like dew in the Sahara.

In short, you're impaled and squirming, and have little hope of getting off the pin labelled, "Anti-Mormon huckster".

Keep thrashing. It'll do you very little good.

Entymology indeed.

[Wiki Wonka]

If you want to make the proofread text available, I can

post it here:

http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/UT/utahmsc3.htm

Intellectual Reserve gets antsy over reproduced copyrighted

texts that are too long -- so it would be helpful to know

approximately how many words were printed in the Church News

section that week. If Jessee is less than 10%, I think we

could get away with posting the article on the web.

I no longer have the Nov. 1977 Moody Monthly article on Mr. Davis,

so I can't reproduce that for a contemporary readership ... sorry.

UD

I'm going to try and get the rest of it, perhaps this weekend if I have time. The entire article is three pages long (including pictures). I don't have the rest of the Church News, so I'm not sure how long the entire thing was.

WW

[cdowis]

Maybe he should try moving to Hawaii.

I understand Hawaii has a plague of very noisy frogs. I prefer the quiet chirping of crickets.

[USU78]

Maybe he should try moving to Hawaii.

Busted!

You found us all out, Unk.

We're all trolling for an invite to your place for lunch and an all-expenses-paid side trip to Hattie's!

[wenglund]

Wait a minute.....

Little gold basketball player logo on the ball.....

Gold angel Moroni.......

And someone's going to say that's just a coincidence.

Now, if you can find some parallels between what is written on the basketball and the Book of Mormon (which shouldn't be too difficult given the several hundred of pages of text), you will really be on to something.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Uncle Dale]

...

You found us all out, Unk.

...

What I've found out, is that there is often a higher principle at work among the Saints

than simple conformity. In many ways we do seem to be religious and social conformists,

but since 1830, there has always been some slender ground upon which an occasional

non-conformist might stand, be his name Orson Pratt, J. Golden Kimball, or Dale Broadhurst.

It cannot be done, however, without some support from the body itself -- and at least

some minimal benign neglect from our overseers (be they MB mods or Mission Presidents).

It isn't easy, playing the role of Yorick in this court. But friends help out, -- and the

day will come when they can say, "Alas, Horatio, we knew him -- a fellow of infinite jest."

Thank you.

Your Uncle

[frankenstein]

Uncle Dale....you are either a good advocate or I do not have enough familiarity with this issue. But what is you position on the Spaulding v unknown scribe. (was it your website that I linked in an earlier post?)

[Uncle Dale]

Uncle Dale....you are either a good advocate or I do not have enough familiarity with this issue. But what is you position on the Spaulding v unknown scribe. (was it your website that I linked in an earlier post?)

My position is to generally attempt to keep "an open mind," and have my conclusions be

evidence-formed, rather than prejudice-formed.

I'm in agreement with Dr. Jessee and others, that the text for the June 1831 D&C text,

the several page-top captions, and the run of pages in 1st Nephi, erroneously attributed

to Solomon Spalding, are all the handwriting of one person from the 1828-31 period, after

Spalding was deceased. Candidates for the "unknown scribe" range from Whitmers, Rockwells,

Knights, or any other literate Smith associates from that period. He/she probably was

not a member of the Hale family -- a member of the Harris family is possible but unlikely.

I haven't said or written much about the matter, because the handwriting in 1st Nephi is

of only marginal interest to me. Any attempted connection of Solomon Spalding to the

Book of Mormon text (in my opinion) must be based upon something more substantial than

extremely dubious (and partly retracted) "handwriting experts."

For example, we might look at the narrative content and the theological precepts

exhibited in the 1st Nephi text, erroneously attributed to Solomon Spalding -- does

that content in any way resemble what we know of Spalding's writings? There are parts

of 1st Nephi which the recent Stanford team's analysis attributes to Spalding -- but how

does that data correlate with the text supplied by the "unknown scribe?"

Those are the sorts of things I'd be interested in, if somebody ever chooses to research

them. As for my own time and energy: they are currently taken up with other interests.

UD

.

[Uncle Dale]

I'm going to try and get the rest of it, perhaps this weekend if I have time. The entire article is three pages long (including pictures). I don't have the rest of the Church News, so I'm not sure how long the entire thing was.

WW

Sounds good to me.

Let me know if it's OK for me to reproduce your transcript on-line.

UD