Problem with the LDS solution to the Problem of Evil?

[Luigi]

I would be very interested if you could perhaps better explain what God "making the rules" means.

Edit: Do you think all God has to do is come up with any rules he wants and then make them valid with the Priesthood?

Can or cannot God control the outcome regardless of what has occured before?

[mfbukowski]

An omnipotent God could give immortality and eternal life to men without agency and/or in spite of their agency.

Did I say he couldn't? Of course he could- he gives it by grace anyway. But what would that accomplish?

But it is his plan that we "qualify" as much as we can. He is TEACHING us and does not just give away A's, though he would have the power to do so.

[mfbukowski]

Can or cannot God control the outcome regardless of what has occured before?

Give me a break

This is what we are talking about. It is just a variation on making a rock so big he can't lift it.

[Jason]

An omnipotent God could give immortality and eternal life to men without agency and/or in spite of their agency.

Immortality yes - in fact He has done this. Eternal life (or exaltation): no. It cannot be enjoyed without agency.

[Facsimile 3]

Can or cannot God control the outcome regardless of what has occured before?

That would be a no. God's rules come from His experience with what works.

If we were to build an airplane we would look to previous attempts of others and then see "what works best" from our experience of testing those ideas; what works might be called "rules."

When God is implementing a plan to give His children immortality and eternal life it is no different. He is limited to "what works."

He is not a blue genie who can decide that gravity will be opposite today and everyone's' airplanes (no matter how they are made) can just fall into the sky.

[Luigi]

Give me a break

This is what we are talking about. It is just a variation on making a rock so big he can't lift it.

Really? How? He can determine the outcome and that requires no creation of contradicting abilities like the rock example.

[Luigi]

That would be a no. God's rules come from His experience with what works.

If we were to build an airplane we would look to previous attempts of others and then see "what works best" from our experience of testing those ideas; what works might be called "rules."

When God is implementing a plan to give His children immortality and eternal life it is no different. He is limited to "what works."

He is not a blue genie who can decide that gravity will be opposite today and everyone's' airplanes (no matter how they are made) can just fall into the sky.

Then He is not omnipotent. If he is constrained by some eternal laws beyond His control that require him to do things in a certain way then He is not omnipotent.

[Luigi]

Immortality yes - in fact He has done this. Eternal life (or exaltation): no. It cannot be enjoyed without agency.

If it cannot be enjoyed without agency than that is a law that God cannot change OR he chose that law in which case he prefers evil to the absence of agency.

[Facsimile 3]

Then He is not omnipotent. If he is constrained by some eternal laws beyond His control that require him to do things in a certain way then He is not omnipotent.

By your above definition provided I would agree with you. The very fact that you have agency proves that God is not as defined above, omnipotent; He can't override your choices and for Him to do that would imply having Lucifer's plan in action instead of the Father's.

Lucifer's plan, by the way, didn't pan out because it went against "what works."

[danieljbelk]

As a test.

You know- the purpose of life? Primary stuff- Why did we come to earth? "To get a body and be tested"...

Then God is not omniscient?

I would be very interested if you could perhaps better explain what God "making the rules" means.

Edit: Do you think all God has to do is come up with any rules he wants and then make them valid with the Priesthood?

Isn't that the point to being God?

Can or cannot God control the outcome regardless of what has occured before?

Did God make dinosaurs to look like they've existed for millions of years, but just really create them out of nothing 7000 years ago? It's possible (however unlikely). God could certainly screw with our heads to make us think that the past that we've experienced isn't really the past.

[Facsimile 3]

Isn't that the point to being God?

It is if you only watch animated Disney movies as your source of theology .

[danieljbelk]

It is if you only watch animated Disney movies as your source of theology .

Sorry, I didn't get the joke.

[Facsimile 3]

Sorry, I didn't get the joke.

Then I guess as Genie from Aladdin might say,"the joke is on you" .

[danieljbelk]

Then I guess as Genie from Aladdin might say,"the joke is on you" .

... okay.

If God doesn't make the rules, then why call him God? He has to be "god" over some rules, in order to be God. Granted, God be as much of a god to us, as we are to ants. Perhaps that fits LDS thought better? (eg. He has to abide by the rules already set into place but is just that much more powerful - something like that could reasonably be called a "god" but maybe not "God".)

[Facsimile 3]

... okay.

If God doesn't make the rules, then why call him God? He has to be "god" over some rules, in order to be God. Granted, God be as much of a god to us, as we are to ants. Perhaps that fits LDS thought better? (eg. He has to abide by the rules already set into place but is just that much more powerful - something like that could reasonably be called a "god" but maybe not "God".)

God's rules come from His experience with what works.

If we were to build an airplane we would look to previous attempts of others and then see "what works best" from our experience of testing those ideas; what works might be called "rules."

When God is implementing a plan to give His children immortality and eternal life it is no different. He is limited to "what works."

He is not a blue genie who can decide that gravity will be opposite today and everyone's' airplanes (no matter how they are made) can just fall into the sky.

Heavenly Father is a glorified human man; "Man of Holiness". God is a Priesthood title for an office. Think of the Priesthood as what "is already set in place." A little deacon has a itty bitty, incy wincy, ittsy bittsy part of that Priesthood, and so it goes up from there from Bishop, Stake President....Prophet, Christ, Heavenly Father. Each level in the Priesthood has a stewardship involved. It is not about having more power to do cool things for yourself, but to be able to do really cool things for others.

So a glorified being who can cover our spirits in a tabernacle of flesh and who can overcome sin and death in His plan, do I think I am an ant compared to Him and His Son? You bet I do!

[danieljbelk]

Heavenly Father is a glorified human man; "Man of Holiness". God is a Priesthood title for an office. Think of the Priesthood as what "is already set in place." A little deacon has a itty bitty, incy wincy, ittsy bittsy part of that Priesthood, and so it goes up from there from Bishop, Stake President....Prophet, Christ, Heavenly Father. Each level in the Priesthood has a stewardship involved. It is not about having more power to do cool things for yourself, but to be able to do really cool things for others.

So a glorified being who can cover our spirits in a tabernacle of flesh and who can overcome sin and death in His plan, do I think I am an ant compared to Him and His Son? You bet I do!

Fair enough.

[cdowis]

Then God is not omniscient?

He is omniscient. If there are things he does not know, then the Plan of Salvation is not absolute, His covenants are not eternal, because "something" may change, or cause it all to collapse.

God knows what needs to be done and has the absolute power to do it (the priesthood). That makes him God and, in that sense, omnipotent.

Hope that clarifies things.

[mfbukowski]

Can or cannot God control the outcome regardless of what has occured before?

Really? How? He can determine the outcome and that requires no creation of contradicting abilities like the rock example.

Of course it does.

One of the "laws" of the universe is causal regularity, so that in say chemistry, two parts of x plus three parts of y produce by reaction 5 parts of z. (say)

The contradiction would be:

1- The universe is causally regular

2- The universe is not causally regular.

Both of those would have to be true for God to change the outcome of events

[mfbukowski]

That would be a no. God's rules come from His experience with what works.

If we were to build an airplane we would look to previous attempts of others and then see "what works best" from our experience of testing those ideas; what works might be called "rules."

When God is implementing a plan to give His children immortality and eternal life it is no different. He is limited to "what works."

He is not a blue genie who can decide that gravity will be opposite today and everyone's' airplanes (no matter how they are made) can just fall into the sky.

It seems that you are saying that "what works" is what DEFINES the rules, yet it could be the rules God made which defines "what works".

We can't know the truth of either, so why bother with it?

But it makes me feel better to know he is not a Blue Genie. He would sound too much like Robin Williams if he was.

[mfbukowski]

Then God is not omniscient?

Huh?

Isn't that the point to being God?

No.

Did God make dinosaurs to look like they've existed for millions of years, but just really create them out of nothing 7000 years ago? It's possible (however unlikely). God could certainly screw with our heads to make us think that the past that we've experienced isn't really the past.

How would we know if it was or wasn't and how is any of this relevant to anything?

[Facsimile 3]

It seems that you are saying that "what works" is what DEFINES the rules, yet it could be the rules God made which defines "what works".

We can't know the truth of either, so why bother with it?

Oh you, assuming I'm trying to make a case whether God came before the Universe or if God came from the Universe.

Besides, way back when, didn't God have to gain knowledge as to what would be good rules from His experience with what works? That is, if He ever was human .

[Luigi]

Of course it does.

One of the "laws" of the universe is causal regularity, so that in say chemistry, two parts of x plus three parts of y produce by reaction 5 parts of z. (say)

The contradiction would be:

1- The universe is causally regular

2- The universe is not causally regular.

Both of those would have to be true for God to change the outcome of events

I suppose that it depends on what must remain 'causally regular' and whether God made these laws that He is constrained by. If He made the laws again He is responsible for evil since He could have easily created laws which eliminated evil. If, on the other hand God is stuck with the precedent of eternal laws he is not omnipotent. That is not a contradiction like the rock example because we are not examining if God can do both 1 and 2 but rather whether He can eliminate evil. If God must maintain a causally regular universe He is not omnipotent and therefore evil exists because he is constrained by precedent which He cannot break.

[Luigi]

By your above definition provided I would agree with you. The very fact that you have agency proves that God is not as defined above, omnipotent; He can't override your choices and for Him to do that would imply having Lucifer's plan in action instead of the Father's.

Lucifer's plan, by the way, didn't pan out because it went against "what works."

I agree that this seems consistent with LDS theology. I suppose it's some consolation to some that according to this concept of God evil isn't really God's 'fault'-he's just doing the best he can with the eternal laws that were handed to him.

[CV75]

I agree that this seems consistent with LDS theology. I suppose it's some consolation to some that according to this concept of God evil isn't really God's 'fault'-he's just doing the best he can with the eternal laws that were handed to him.

I would rephrase this to say, "God is doing what someone who is eternal law does." Omnipotence is the perfect management and application of eternal law (eternal law if Self). This allows others to mismanage and misapply laws, or themselves, (evil) without affecting the operations of an omnipotent being.

[Mansquatch]

One thing that is bugging me is that God did create evil, but it is so easily thrown out there that he did not and never would or even could. God created evil in two easy steps:

1. Give a creation a free choice

2. Tell the creation what you want it to choose, or which choice is defined as good.

Voila, there you have evil.