Article about "Mormon Scholars Testify"

[Daniel Peterson]

That will mean logging him off of PAF for a few hours, and I might need backup to make that happen. But I'll give it a shot.

Tell him that if he doesn't comply, we'll ship him off to Riyadh.

No. Wait a minute. That might not work.

Incidentally, Zeezrom is now explaining, over at The Great and Spacious Trailer Park, that "only TBM's will find ['Mormon Scholars Testify'] fascinating."

I guess, in that light, that the e-mails I've received from "non-members" (as they've identified themselves) have been forgeries?

Where does Zeezrom come up with the evidence to support these assertions of his? Oh. Wait a minute. He's never cited any evidence. He just asserts things.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Tell him that if he doesn't comply, we'll ship him off to Riyadh.

No. Wait a minute. That might not work.

Incidentally, Zeezrom is now explaining, over at The Great and Spacious Trailer Park, that "only TBM's will find ['Mormon Scholars Testify'] fascinating."

I guess, in that light, that the e-mails I've received from "non-members" (as they've identified themselves) have been forgeries?

Where does Zeezrom come up with the evidence to support these assertions of his? Oh. Wait a minute. He's never cited any evidence. He just asserts things.

Indeed. (Scratches head).

[Somebodyz]

Tell him that if he doesn't comply, we'll ship him off to Riyadh.

No. Wait a minute. That might not work.

Incidentally, Zeezrom is now explaining, over at The Great and Spacious Trailer Park

[Mortal Man]

J Green: Now just talk to you-know-who and get him to contribute.

Dan, you've got to stop this. My inbox is jammed and I've been forced to unplug my phone. Oh, and tell Elder Packer enough already with the "I just happened to be in the neighborhood" routine; he's not fooling anyone. I told you, I'm far too swamped at the moment to submit my testimony. Please call off your dogs until I return from Stockholm.

[zeezrom]

Incidentally, Zeezrom is now explaining, over at The Great and Spacious Trailer Park

[Daniel Peterson]

I used the word Questioners not "non-members"

And does that make a substantial difference?

I would guess that questioners wouldn't find the site as fascinating as TBMs. I could be wrong but that is my guess.

So you acknowledge that it's just a guess. And it's based on . . . what?

[zeezrom]

And does that make a substantial difference?

So you acknowledge that it's just a guess. And it's based on . . . what?

I think it does make a difference.

Stand by and I'll post feedback from a non-member friend of mine.... I just sent him the link.

I have some friends and family members that are also questioning. I know what they have been searching for: evidence.

We (as active members) hear testimonies all the time. We know the drill. What we have not yet heard are the different ways to look at the evidence. We have not read all the FAIR pages but we have read quite a few. I have read some books. I'm getting ready to read RSR. That is what I'm looking forward to.

Not a truckload of testimonials.

[ttribe]

I think it does make a difference.

Stand by and I'll post feedback from a non-member friend of mine.... I just sent him the link.

I have some friends and family members that are also questioning. I know what they have been searching for: evidence.

We (as active members) hear testimonies all the time. We know the drill. What we have not yet heard are the different ways to look at the evidence. We have not read all the FAIR pages but we have read quite a few. I have read some books. I'm getting ready to read RSR. That is what I'm looking forward to.

Not a truckload of testimonials.

And again, the natural follow-on question - do you think you are representative of the population of all "Questioners"?

[LifeOnaPlate]

well, if you consider 50 regular readers a success than MST is a success.

? I was talking about my blog getting that many visits. I don't know how many people visit MST and imagine it is as much if not more than my blog's daily average.

You are right, MST is dissemination. But isn't it dissemination of the same thing over and over? That is why I mentioned the analogy of global warming debate. How many testimonials of global warming do you want to read? Boring.

This is mostly a matter of personal taste. However, it should be noted that websites need to have a consistent theme in order to maintain some sort of order and purpose for existing. I like the theme of MST. Further, I have found interesting and sometimes surprising differences in the testimonies on MST. Different perspectives and different personal stories and different reasons for faith. I think it is great, and more diverse than you give it credit for. Although I wish there were more women on the site. I understand some of the problem, though. I am struggling to find women to participate in my blog's "My Faves" series right now.

[zeezrom]

And again, the natural follow-on question - do you think you are representative of the population of all "Questioners"?

Who is? Has someone developed a questionnaire and sent it around to questioners to find this out?

I'm looking at those I see around me and getting the impression that they would not make use of this site, including me.

Maybe the developers of this site have done more research into what questioners typically need?

[ttribe]

Who is? Has someone developed a questionnaire and sent it around to questioners to find this out?

No one has done such a thing as far as I know; which is why I am wondering why your default position would be that you are representative of the population.

I'm looking at those I see around me and getting the impression that they would not make use of this site, including me.

I suppose it may also have something to do with the source(s) of one's questions as well.

Maybe the developers of this site have done more research into what questioners typically need?

Don't know, since I'm not one of the developers.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I think it does make a difference.

Stand by and I'll post feedback from a non-member friend of mine.... I just sent him the link.

I have some friends and family members that are also questioning. I know what they have been searching for: evidence.

We (as active members) hear testimonies all the time. We know the drill. What we have not yet heard are the different ways to look at the evidence. We have not read all the FAIR pages but we have read quite a few. I have read some books. I'm getting ready to read RSR. That is what I'm looking forward to.

Not a truckload of testimonials.

What converts someone to the gospel? Is it archeology or science? Is it scholoary concensus?

Is it group think?

Why do we share testimonies?

[zeezrom]

What converts someone to the gospel? Is it archeology or science? Is it scholoary concensus?

Is it group think?

Why do we share testimonies?

I understand. But I have a BIL that began questioning and now is back to TBM mode. As I recall, he told me he did a lot of reading to help him come back. The reading he mentioned was not books full of testimonies but words of historians. I'm not sure if it was RSR but I think it may have been. I have another friend that found some philosophical documents from a BYU professor to help him.

It is going to be the way we feel in our hearts that does it - not the way someone else feels in their heart.

[ttribe]

I understand. But I have a BIL that began questioning and now is back to TBM mode. As I recall, he told me he did a lot of reading to help him come back. The reading he mentioned was not books full of testimonies but words of historians. I'm not sure if it was RSR but I think it may have been. I have another friend that found some philosophical documents from a BYU professor to help him.

It is going to be the way we feel in our hearts that does it - not the way someone else feels in their heart.

Okay. So it doesn't work for you. Perhaps it is helpful to others?

[zeezrom]

Okay. So it doesn't work for you. Perhaps it is helpful to others?

Nobody has been able to answer that question yet (regarding questioners). The site is geared toward questioners, yes?

[Vance]

I thought that site, this thread and the Maxwell Institute would to be dead by now.

They are like the energizer bunny.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Nobody has been able to answer that question yet (regarding questioners). The site is geared toward questioners, yes?

I am not the owner of the site. Is it one of the missions or main mission of that site to help questioners?

I know it it not set up to delve in to archaeology or historical questions/issues/topics.

I suggest that you ask DCP and see what he says.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Time will tell. I guess we need to wait and see how it succeeds.

What is your rubric of success? According to my personal rubric, it has succeeded already.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I understand. But I have a BIL that began questioning and now is back to TBM mode. As I recall, he told me he did a lot of reading to help him come back. The reading he mentioned was not books full of testimonies but words of historians. I'm not sure if it was RSR but I think it may have been. I have another friend that found some philosophical documents from a BYU professor to help him.

It is going to be the way we feel in our hearts that does it - not the way someone else feels in their heart.

I truly hope that you do understand.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I'm sure people are interested. I'm just wondering how many and whether it will remain interesting in the future. It may or it may not.

I'd give an awful lot to see a similar collection from Mormon intellectuals of times past all in one handy site. I'm sure there are some fascinating Mormon academics from times past whose names I don't even know. Throw those together with people like Hugh Nibley, Hugh B. Brown, Janne M. Sj

[LifeOnaPlate]

Real time witnesses are usually much better - like during F&TM. Some are great and some are utterly boring. It depends. Some are hard to listen to because my kids are fighting over paper airplanes or something.

If a loved one were to send me a written testimonial, I would love to read it.

I may find Hugh Nibley's testimony interesting and plan to go to MST someday and read it.

I can't put my finger on it. I've got this bug in me saying there must be a way to spice up MST! I'm sorry if my criticism is offending in any way. I may be the only one that thinks it's kind of boring (doughboy for one, agrees with me I think).

Maybe adding video/podcasted testimonies. I think testimonies, however, are more often shared live or in writing. Also the cost of maintaining the site and the time in editing, etc. would rise considerably.

[zeezrom]

Maybe adding video/podcasted testimonies. I think testimonies, however, are more often shared live or in writing. Also the cost of maintaining the site and the time in editing, etc. would rise considerably.

video is an interesting idea actually. Or interviews? -- now that might be something!

It should not be too costly to do that.

DCP - have you ever considered video?

[Daniel Peterson]

I think it does make a difference.

Stand by and I'll post feedback from a non-member friend of mine.... I just sent him the link.

Hate to say it, z, but what your non-member friend might have to say won't settle anything one way or the other. I've never suggested, and would never imagine, that "Mormon Scholars Testify" will interest all or most non-members or "questioners." I simply believe that a substantial number -- even a fraction of one percent of the world's non-members and "questioners" would be a very substantial number -- are likely to find it beneficial in some way, and I believe that it makes a statement that is important to make.

I have some friends and family members that are also questioning. I know what they have been searching for: evidence.

And you seem to imagine, for some reason, that it's an either/or.

I've been involved a bit with writing up and presenting and disseminating evidence. A lot of it, though by no means all of it, is available here:

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/

Or, more specifically (as far as I'm personally concerned) here:

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/authors/?authorID=1

And in several CDs and DVDs and in more lectures than I can count. And in various newspaper columns, including these recent items:

http://mormontimes.com/mormon_voices/guest_blog/?id=14372

http://www.mormontimes.com/mormon_voices/guest_blog/?id=13891

http://www.mormontimes.com/mormon_voices/guest_blog/?id=14153

The establishment of "Mormon Scholars Testify" doesn't represent an abandonment of that effort, or a retreat from evidence. I have plenty of plans for future publications on that topic, as do others.

We (as active members) hear testimonies all the time. We know the drill.

That you dismiss the bearing of testimonies as a mere "drill" is revealing, but it tells me little about anybody but yourself.

What we have not yet heard are the different ways to look at the evidence.

There are tens of thousands of pages out there, doing precisely that.

Have you read Gary Hadfield's testimony, posted just today on "Mormon Scholars Testify"? Can you really say that it's just more of the same old same-old? Honestly? Is it, really, just a reiteration of Lionel Walters's testimony, or of Jim McLachlan's?

We have not read all the FAIR pages but we have read quite a few. I have read some books. I'm getting ready to read RSR. That is what I'm looking forward to.

Well by all means do it! I can't see any way in which "Mormon Scholars Testify" is keeping you from reading more at FAIR, or reading more books, or reading Rough Stone Rolling. For that matter, contributing to "Mormon Scholars Testify" didn't even keep Richard Bushman from writing the book.

Not a truckload of testimonials.

Fine! So don't read them!

Why, though, do you feel such urgent need to comment on them, repeatedly and at some length? I find your response to "Mormon Scholars Testify" extremely odd.

Has someone developed a questionnaire and sent it around to questioners to find this out?

Nope.

I'm looking at those I see around me and getting the impression that they would not make use of this site, including me.

Statements such as this one remind me of the leftist Manhattan intellectual -- was it Susan Sontag? -- who was baffled by the election of Ronald Reagan, since she didn't know a single person who had voted for him. There's a certain solipsistic quality to the position.

Maybe the developers of this site have done more research into what questioners typically need?

I've simply grown up among non-Mormons, traveled very extensively on every inhabited continent (sorry, rockslider!), spoken at scores and scores of gatherings of various types, taken hundreds of questions, fielded hundreds of e-mail inquiries, served as a missionary, spent my life among academics, and the like. No social science research has been performed.

But I'm gratified by the responses I've received thus far -- including the obsessive and thoroughly predictable criticisms from certain critics. They seem to confirm my take on the situation.

And, incidentally, no, the site is not primarily aimed at what you call "questioners." As I've said in various interviews that are publicly available (this thread highlights one of them in the opening post), "Mormon Scholars Testify" has a missionary focus. Questioners are on our mind, but they are not the only audience, nor even (at least for me, and I'm the prime mover of this project) the primary one.

[zeezrom]

Hate to say it, z, but ...

Hmmm. I see.

Well, maybe I need to spend more time on MST. I have gone there from time to time but not in the last week.

I'm interested in what non-members say about it.

So it is a missionary focus? I just assumed it had an apologetic focus. So the audience is mainly non-members?

I'm interested to see what my non-member friend thinks. He is a literal Bible Christian - very devout.

Thanks for the links DCP - I will look over them tonight.

[zeezrom]

PS - DCP - have you considered making into more of a podcast site of recorded interviews or spoken testimonies? Just curious. Not saying that is better or worse just wondering.