The Red Sea vs. The Sea of Reeds

[zerinus]

It is worth noting though that 'dry land', yabasha, does not denote that everything was dry and there was no mud, but is an antonym for sea. I imagine the Israelites were very muddy and that it took a while to cross, the chariots got stuck because thousands of feet (human and animal) churned up the ground into an impassable morass.

If it was like that, chances are that the Israelites wouldn't have been able to cross it either. According to the figures given in the Bible, the Israelites were around two million strong when they left Egypt. If you include their cattle too, that becomes a huge crowd. If they all had to wade through three feet of mud (especially their kids), I don't think they would have been able to cross at all. Riverbeds and seabeds, however, need not be "muddy". They are just as likely to be rocky. Furthermore, we are talking miracles and divine intervention here. If God was powerful enough to part the water, and perform all the other miracles that He did, He was equally empowered to ensure they crossed on genuinely "dry" ground, either by arranging them to pass through a rocky spot of the sea, or by miraculously drying the ground so they could pass through dry-shod. And in any case, the Bible says:

Exodus 14

:

24 And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the Lord looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and

troubled the host of the Egyptians,

25 And

took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily:

so that the Egyptians said, Let us flee from the face of Israel; for the LORD fighteth for them against the Egyptians.

That is what the Bible says. It all boils down I suppose to whether one believes in the Bible or not.

[volgadon]

If it was like that, chances are that the Israelites wouldn't have been able to cross it either. According to the figures given in the Bible, the Israelites were around two million strong when they left Egypt. If you include their cattle too, that becomes a huge crowd. If they all had to wade through three feet of mud (especially their kids), I don't think they would have been able to cross at all.

Who says it was easy or enjoyable?

And as for being 2 million strong, that is an exaggeration, as found in all ancient texts.

Riverbeds and seabeds, however, need not be "muddy". They are just as likely to be rocky.

The Jordan's bed certainly is muddy. I spent many hours of my childhood playing there.

Furthermore, we are talking miracles and divine intervention here. If God was powerful enough to part the water, and perform all the other miracles that He did, He was equally empowered to ensure they crossed on genuinely "dry" ground, either by arranging them to pass through a rocky spot of the sea, or by miraculously drying the ground so they could pass through dry-shod.

Not prerequisite.

And in any case, the Bible says:

Exodus 14

:

24 And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the Lord looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and

troubled the host of the Egyptians,

25 And

took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily:

so that the Egyptians said, Let us flee from the face of Israel; for the LORD fighteth for them against the Egyptians.

That is what the Bible says. It all boils down I suppose to whether one believes in the Bible or not.

I'm reminded of a story attributed to the Baal Shem-Tov.

A naturalist traveled a great distance to see him and said that in the course of his investigations he discovered that the sea had to divide exactly when the Israelites crossed it, so what really was miraculous about the story?

The Baal Shem Tov answered with a question. Who created nature? God did. That is the miracle, that he created the sea to part just when the Israelites had to cross.

So, in your judgement, if something is not as hollywoodish as possible, is it not a miracle? Does God have to send Seraphs and Cherubs with flaming screwdrivers to take off the wheels of the Egyptian chariots, or can he use natural circumstances?

[mfbukowski]

Cool.

I kinda like the flaming screwdrivers myself.

[volgadon]

A fun flourish, I thought.

[thesometimesaint]

I guess with enough Vodka even a screwdriver would be OK, but it would have an off putting metallic taste.

[zerinus]

Who says it was easy or enjoyable?

Well, it had to be possible! Remember that there were old and frail men and women among them, as well as very small children.

And as for being 2 million strong, that is an exaggeration, as found in all ancient texts.

Not according to my reckoning. In the Book of Numbers, all the able-bodied men of Israel (20 years old and upwards) that were conscripted into the army were numbered to be

[consiglieri]

Did Manna coming down from heaven for 40 years nature?

I am sure you don't want me to go into the details of tree excretions or bug-poop (the latter of which apparently bears a striking resemblance to the way manna is described in Exodus, though I can't vouch for the taste), both of which are proposed theories for the manna from heaven.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[zerinus]

I am sure you don't want me to go into the details of tree excretions or bug-poop (the latter of which apparently bears a striking resemblance to the way manna is described in Exodus, though I can't vouch for the taste), both of which are proposed theories for the manna from heaven.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Theories maybe; but do they make sense? Can you feed and drink a wondering population two million strong in the desert for 40 years on that kind of "theory"?

[consiglieri]

Theories maybe; but do they make sense? Can you feed and drink a wondering population two million strong in the desert for 40 years on that kind of "theory"?

I don't know.

But you keep thinking the Biblical account of the Israelite population was not exaggerated, in spite of the fact you have been advised it almost certainly was.

Think smaller.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[mfbukowski]

I guess with enough Vodka even a screwdriver would be OK, but it would have an off putting metallic taste.

Yeah but that would explain why it's flaming.

[zerinus]

I don't know.

But you keep thinking the Biblical account of the Israelite population was not exaggerated, in spite of the fact you have been advised it almost certainly was.

Think smaller.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

"Advised" by whom? On what authority? By what evidence? The evidence of unbelief? Is that the kind of evidence that impresses you the most?

[Ron Beron]

I'm reminded of a story attributed to the Baal Shem-Tov.

A naturalist traveled a great distance to see him and said that in the course of his investigations he discovered that the sea had to divide exactly when the Israelites crossed it, so what really was miraculous about the story?

The Baal Shem Tov answered with a question. Who created nature? God did. That is the miracle, that he created the sea to part just when the Israelites had to cross.

So, in your judgement, if something is not as hollywoodish as possible, is it not a miracle? Does God have to send Seraphs and Cherubs with flaming screwdrivers to take off the wheels of the Egyptian chariots, or can he use natural circumstances?

Great story. I just love Jewish wisdom stories. Almost as good as great Jewish athletes.

[Joseph Antley]

That is what the Bible says. It all boils down I suppose to whether one believes in the Bible or not.

No Latter-day Saint believes everything in the Bible. Don't be so self-righteous.

[zerinus]

No Latter-day Saint believes everything in the Bible. Don't be so self-righteous.

Mormonism accepts everything in the Bible unless it is revealed otherwise.

[blackstrap]

I have read that the 600,000 number was an exaggeration before but cannot remember why it was. Either a misinterpretation of a number

or a typical stretching of the truth. So.. CFR on the actual number. I will accept the bible's number until shown a plausible alternative. 2 million people plus animals etc would occupy an area of about 5 square miles .Or the width of an Interstate Highway over 50 miles long.

[Joseph Antley]

Mormonism accepts everything in the Bible unless it is revealed otherwise.

Are we to assume then that the Lord has revealed everything pertaining to the Bible? CFR.

[volgadon]

I have read that the 600,000 number was an exaggeration before but cannot remember why it was. Either a misinterpretation of a number

or a typical stretching of the truth. So.. CFR on the actual number. I will accept the bible's number until shown a plausible alternative. 2 million people plus animals etc would occupy an area of about 5 square miles .Or the width of an Interstate Highway over 50 miles long.

Nobody knows the exact number. I can't think of any ancient source that doesn't exaggerate large numbers.

The Bible is full of such examples. 15000 horses (at a bare minimum) owned by Solomon my foot.

[volgadon]

Well, it had to be possible! Remember that there were old and frail men and women among them, as well as very small children.

Still not impossible. Strenuous, but what about a desert trek wasn't?

Not according to my reckoning. In the Book of Numbers, all the able-bodied men of Israel (20 years old and upwards) that were conscripted into the army were numbered to be

[blackstrap]

Just for fun I rewatched the videos of Ron Wyatt's finds in the Gulf of Acaba on the Anchor Stone website. There are 6 video clips of the area and what was found. He claims to have found the crossing place,Mt.Sinai, altars etc.

[Ron Beron]

Mormonism accepts everything in the Bible unless it is revealed otherwise.

If all religions are an abomination and they base their religious dogma on sola scriptura then what does that say about the bible. I kinda like the words of BY on the subject of whether the Bible is the word of God...

When I first commenced to preach to the people, nearly forty years ago, to believe the Bible was the great requisite. I have heard some make the broad assertion that every word within the lids of the Bible was the word of God. I have said to them, "You have never read the Bible, have you?" "O, yes, and I believe every word in it is the word of God." Well, I believe that the Bible contains the word of God, and the words of good men and the words of bad men; the words of good angels and the words of bad angels and words of the devil; and also the words uttered by the *** when he rebuked the prophet in his madness. I believe the words of the Bible are just what they are; but aside from that I believe the doctrines concerning salvation contained in that book are true, and that their observance will elevate any people, nation or family that dwells on the face of the earth. The doctrines contained in the Bible will lift to a superior condition all who observe them; they will impart to them knowledge, wisdom, charity, fill them with compassion and cause them to feel after the wants of those who are in distress, or in painful or degraded circumstances. They who observe the precepts contained in the Scriptures will be just and true, and virtuous and peaceable at home and abroad. Follow out the doctrines of the Bible and men will make splendid husbands, women excellent wives, and children will be obedient; they will make families happy and the nations wealthy and happy and lifted up above the things of this life. Can any see any harm in all this? "Oh, but you Mormons are such a strange people.

[zerinus]

I have read that the 600,000 number was an exaggeration before but cannot remember why it was. Either a misinterpretation of a number

or a typical stretching of the truth. So.. CFR on the actual number. I will accept the bible's number until shown a plausible alternative. 2 million people plus animals etc would occupy an area of about 5 square miles .Or the width of an Interstate Highway over 50 miles long.

The numbers were meticulously recorded:

Numbers 1

:

19 As the Lord commanded Moses, so he numbered them in the wilderness of Sinai.

20 And the children of Reuben, Israel's eldest son, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, by their polls, every male from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;

21 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Reuben, were forty and six thousand and five hundred.

22 Of the children of Simeon, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, those that were numbered of them, according to the number of the names, by their polls, every male from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;

23 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Simeon, were fifty and nine thousand and three hundred.

24 Of the children of Gad, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;

25 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Gad, were forty and five thousand six hundred and fifty.

26 Of the children of Judah, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;

27 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Judah, were threescore and fourteen thousand and six hundred.

28 Of the children of Issachar, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;

29 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Issachar, were fifty and four thousand and four hundred.

30 Of the children of Zebulun, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;

31 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Zebulun, were fifty and seven thousand and four hundred.

32 Of the children of Joseph, namely, of the children of Ephraim, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;

33 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Ephraim, were forty thousand and five hundred.

34 Of the children of Manasseh, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;

35 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Manasseh, were thirty and two thousand and two hundred.

36 Of the children of Benjamin, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;

37 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Benjamin, were thirty and five thousand and four hundred.

38 Of the children of Dan, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;

39 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Dan, were threescore and two thousand and seven hundred.

40 Of the children of Asher, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;

41 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Asher, were forty and one thousand and five hundred.

42 Of the children of Naphtali, throughout their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;

43 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Naphtali, were fifty and three thousand and four hundred.

44 These are those that were numbered, which Moses and Aaron numbered, and the princes of Israel, being twelve men: each one was for the house of his fathers.

45 So were all those that were numbered of the children of Israel, by the house of their fathers, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war in Israel;

46 Even all they that were numbered were six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty.

47 But the Levites after the tribe of their fathers were not numbered among them.

48 For the Lord had spoken unto Moses, saying,

49 Only thou shalt not number the tribe of Levi, neither take the sum of them among the children of Israel:

50 But thou shalt appoint the Levites over the tabernacle of testimony, and over all the vessels thereof, and over all things that belong to it: they shall bear the tabernacle, and all the vessels thereof; and they shall minister unto it, and shall encamp round about the tabernacle.

We have no reason to assume that this numbering was exaggerated or not correctly reported.

[zerinus]

Are we to assume then that the Lord has revealed everything pertaining to the Bible? CFR.

No; but a lot has been revealed; and in the absence of further revelation we have no way of knowing where any additional errors (if any) might be. None of this, however, makes the Bible an unreliable source of Christian doctrine.

[zerinus]

Nobody knows the exact number. I can't think of any ancient source that doesn't exaggerate large numbers.

The Bible is full of such examples. 15000 horses (at a bare minimum) owned by Solomon my foot.

How about 1,000 wives and concubines!

[zerinus]

In the Jordan? Have you been there even once?

Trust me, they are muddy, even the upper Jordan. . . .

Some riverbeds are rocky, and some are muddy. I am not commenting on Jordan.

Not one of Moses's miracles. Besides, I'm sure they died of some natural means.

So how do you tell the difference between a miracle and natural occurance?

Perhaps, but, again, not a miracle of Moses's.

God performs all miracles; but it is usually done through the faith of humans.

Absolutely. I'm pretty sure it was done by means of a sinkhole, the kind that are a very real threat in Southern Israel, Jordan, and parts of the Sinai. That it happened to open right under them at the right time means that God was in control of nature.

Do you make a distinction in your mind between a miracle and a purely natural occurrence? If so, what is that distinction?

Scripture says that Cherubs with flaming screwdrivers removed the wheels?

All scriptures say is that God removed the wheels. We don't know the agent by which he did so. The scripture does not say that God came down personally and did it, or that he sent angels to dismantle the wheels. God is in control of all the elements, why not perform such a miracle by natural means?

The scripture says that it was a miracle. It says that God caused it to happen. That means that if God hadn

[MDalby]

Does anyone have any more information on the Jewish tradition regarding Nachshon ben Aminadav?

If I remember correctly Nachshon ben Aminadav was the first to obey Moses' command and he walked into the sea until the water was up to his neck and it was at that point that the sea split.