Doctrinal Contradictions

[consiglieri]

Contradictions in doctrine are frequently hailed as the hallmark of a false religion.

How many Christian fundamentalists fight against even the most obvious contradictions in the Bible?

How many Mormons do the same with obvious contradictions in the standard works and teachings of Church leaders?

I am starting to think that, if a religion is to grow in knowledge and understanding, there must be contradictions along the way.

It seems that contradictions are what always happen historically to catapult society into new realms of comprehension and awareness.

I am not certain that religions should be any different.

My perception is that so long as religions fight against contradiction, rather than embracing it, their circle of understanding spirals in ever tighter upon itself, rather than breaking through to the stars.

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Connie]

Hmm, interesting. Reminds me of the "opposition in all things." It's definitely something to think about.

[JDave]

Do you mean "seeking to comprehend" when you say "embracing"? Or are you suggesting to see contradictions as having intrinsic goodness that should not be resolved in any way?

[Tsuzuki]

Or are you suggesting to see contradictions as having intrinsic goodness that should not be resolved in any way?

I would certainly agree with this.

[Scottie]

So, this God, who is supposedly a God of order who cannot be any other way, puts His religions in a state of constant confusion because ... it can't be any other way?

[Kevin Christensen]

Contradictions in doctrine are frequently hailed as the hallmark of a false religion.

How many Christian fundamentalists fight against even the most obvious contradictions in the Bible?

How many Mormons do the same with obvious contradictions in the standard works and teachings of Church leaders?

I am starting to think that, if a religion is to grow in knowledge and understanding, there must be contradictions along the way.

It seems that contradictions are what always happen historically to catapult society into new realms of comprehension and awareness.

I am not certain that religions should be any different.

My perception is that so long as religions fight against contradiction, rather than embracing it, their circle of understanding spirals in ever tighter upon itself, rather than breaking through to the stars.

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

William Perry might think you were moving to the eight and nineth steps of his Scheme for Cognitive and Ethical Growth:

POSITION 8. Commitments in Relativism developed continues.

The person makes several more Commitments while realizing he must find balance and establish painful priorities of energy, action and time. He starts to experience periodically serenity and well-being in the midst of complexity. He has a sense of living with trust in the midst of heightened awareness of risk. He accepts fact that order and disorder are fluctuations in experience. He searches for models of knowledgeability and courage to affirm commitment in full awareness of uncertainty. HE STILL NEEDS TO RECOGNIZE THAT EVEN THE MODEL MUST BE TRANSCENDED, AND HE SENSES HE NEEDS TO DEVELOP IRONY. The TRANSITION between Position 8 and 9 brings trauma. The person feels everything is contradictory and he just can't make sense out of life's dilemmas. But he begins to develop sense of irony and sees he must embrace viewpoints in conflict with his own, not in the old multiplistic way of "separate but equal" or "live and let live" but truly embrace them with what might as well be called "love".

POSITION 9. Commitments in Relativism further developed.

The person now has a developed sense of irony and can more easily embrace other's viewpoints. He can accept life as just that "life", just the way IT is! Now he holds the commitments he makes in a condition of "PROVISIONAL ULTIMACY", meaning that for him what he chooses to be truth IS his truth, and he acts as if it is ultimate truth, but there is still a "provision" for change. He has no illusions about having "arrived" permanently on top of some heap, he is ready and knows he will have to retrace his journey over and over, but he has hope that he will do it each time more wisely. He is aware that he is developing his IDENTITY through Commitment. He can affirm the inseparable nature of the knower and the known--meaning he knows he as knower contributes to what he calls known. He helps weld a community by sharing realization of aloneness and gains strength and intimacy through this shared vulnerability. He has discarded obedience in favor of his own agency, and he continues to select, judge, and build.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[Kevin Christensen]

So, this God, who is supposedly a God of order who cannot be any other way, puts His religions in a state of constant confusion because ... it can't be any other way?

If order was the First and Great Priority, then God would compromise all other values to accommodate the demands of order. All the Law and Prophets would be based on order, and love, if it survived, would emerge somewhere in whatever tidy niche it could not longer bring disorder. And in the ensuing harmony caused by such a priority, none of us would be lost. Or so went the sales pitch.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[emeliza]

I think things change. I think we evolve and therefore rules and answers change. I am not sure I see this as a contradiction. Maybe I am wrong. Seems we no longer (if ever) live in a world with one answer fits all.

Do you ever think there are general rules that we are to live by, but sometimes there are situations where we deviate from the general rules?

Is it a contradiction to give different advice to two people who are in extremely similar situations?

[jadams_4242]

Contradictions in doctrine are frequently hailed as the hallmark of a false religion.

How many Christian fundamentalists fight against even the most obvious contradictions in the Bible?

How many Mormons do the same with obvious contradictions in the standard works and teachings of Church leaders?

I am starting to think that, if a religion is to grow in knowledge and understanding, there must be contradictions along the way.

It seems that contradictions are what always happen historically to catapult society into new realms of comprehension and awareness.

I am not certain that religions should be any different.

My perception is that so long as religions fight against contradiction, rather than embracing it, their circle of understanding spirals in ever tighter upon itself, rather than breaking through to the stars.

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Only this church does not or ever has had contradictions; when a member or authority has made personal statements that contradict the church doctrine is one thing. but an actuall doctrinal church contradiction; is another.

[Scottie]

I think things change. I think we evolve and therefore rules and answers change. I am not sure I see this as a contradiction. Maybe I am wrong. Seems we no longer (if ever) live in a world with one answer fits all.

Do you ever think there are general rules that we are to live by, but sometimes there are situations where we deviate from the general rules?

Is it a contradiction to give different advice to two people who are in extremely similar situations?

I believe it goes much deeper than this. I honestly cannot think of a single theological belief that does not have multiple contradicting verses in the Bible. Well, okay, maybe Jesus died on the cross is pretty standard across Christianity, but other than that...

For every verse that "proves" modalism, there is another that "proves" trinitarianism. For every verse that "proves" God was a man, there is one that "proves" He is a spirit. etc, etc, etc.

[Scottie]

Only this church does not or ever has had contradictions; when a member or authority has made personal statements that contradict the church doctrine is one thing. but an actuall doctrinal church contradiction; is another.

Umm... Wow. Just.... Wow.

[consiglieri]

William Perry might think you were moving to the eight and nineth steps of his Scheme for Cognitive and Ethical Growth:

Ummm, is that a good thing?

[consiglieri]

Only this church does not or ever has had contradictions; when a member or authority has made personal statements that contradict the church doctrine is one thing. but an actuall doctrinal church contradiction; is another.

I want you to know I appreciate where you are coming from jadams, so please do not take this the wrong way, but I am thinking this is the kind of every-tightening circular reasoning that is incapable by its very nature of every learning anything new.

No offense, man.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

William Perry might think you were moving to the eight and nineth steps of his Scheme for Cognitive and Ethical Growth:

I am hoping the tenth step isn't spontaneous combustion . . .

[emeliza]

I believe it goes much deeper than this. I honestly cannot think of a single theological belief that does not have multiple contradicting verses in the Bible. Well, okay, maybe Jesus died on the cross is pretty standard across Christianity, but other than that...

For every verse that "proves" modalism, there is another that "proves" trinitarianism. For every verse that "proves" God was a man, there is one that "proves" He is a spirit. etc, etc, etc.

You are right on that. I have heard people try to explain some of it away as well. I guess we all pick how we can fit it together to make it work. I think that is part of the whole so long as it is translated correctly deal. Maybe they really aren't as big of a deal as we make them out to be either and therefore God doesn't care to have them 'fixed'. Or maybe you are the right one and it is an invention of the human mind to grab onto something to believe in. Or it could be that human hands have corrupted the correct information. There are many possibilities.

Do we have many verses the prove modalism?

[Glenn101]

I want you to know I appreciate where you are coming from jadams, so please do not take this the wrong way, but I am thinking this is the kind of every-tightening circular reasoning that is incapable by its very nature of every learning anything new.

No offense, man.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

You might want to actually present some of those obvious contradictions (in another thread) rather than infer ever so gently that someone who disagrees with you is engaging in circular reasoning.

Glenn

[Eric Blob]

I don't think mormonism even has THAT many contradictions. Being frequently exposed to people attacking the religion, it seems at first as though there's many, but when we look at the ACTUAL contradictions, there's a lot fewer.

[ERMD]

You mean contradictions like this?

[O-Brother]

Only this church does not or ever has had contradictions; when a member or authority has made personal statements that contradict the church doctrine is one thing. but an actuall doctrinal church contradiction; is another.

Hmmm. Been reading much lately?

2 Nephi 5:15

And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.

2 Nephi 5:16

And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land....

[ERMD]

Hmmm. Been reading much lately?

2 Nephi 5:15

And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.

2 Nephi 5:16

And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land....

Poor example.

Precious ores and precious things are not the same.

[consiglieri]

You mean contradictions like this?

[Jeff K.]

Well said and accurate.

[Glenn101]

View PostERMD, on 29 January 2010 - 03:55 PM, said:

You mean contradictions like this?

[O-Brother]

Poor example.

Precious ores and precious things are not the same.

Ha. No kidding.

[consiglieri]

Although I have previously registered my discomfort at the LDS tendency to label the directives of God to Adam and Eve in the Garden as "conflicting commandments," thinking about this subject has caused me to revisit that subject.

What if they were in fact "conflicting"?

Is this story teaching us that growth and wisdom come about through such conflict and/or contradiction?

All the Best!

Consiglieri