Temple complex Artifacts at "Khor Rohri"

[handys003]

Don't need to know him personally.

guess what, I'm from the Middle-East. I know people from Yemen and people who've lived in Arabia. I've read a lot about it as well. As I've said before, if he had to walk any part of his trail as opposed to driving a range rover with a/c, he would reach rather different conclusions about it.

I gathered from your knowledge of Hebrew and other discussions that you were from the area. I wasn't sure of locality I was thinking more Israel. My assertion is that you do not discount a man based on little knowledge of their history. He has some viable observation which discounts Khor Kharfot.

Add to note that Khor Rori natural harbor had many stalls dating back to 600 BCE that were loaded with frankincense waiting to be unloaded into ships by local villagers. The inhabitants lived many centuries before Nephi arrived and were trading among Africa and India. Nephi and his family would have needed maritime knowledge to succeed on his voyage and mariners from that are would have been ideal tutors. Also after viewing Khor Kharfot photos and speaking as one of the few who worked on and help build a Hawaiian voyaging canoe and as a navigator that there is no suitable places to build and launch a ship of such notable size at Khor Kharfot. A small canoe but not a large ship. Khor Rori provides a perfect sheltered harbor for such an endeavor. That is why Khor Rori is populated through it's history with a sea faring mariners and Khor Kharfot does not.

[shrff]

Archeology, among a number of humanities disciplines, as been among the most aggressive in sounding out great swelling words of certitude regarding various subjects within its purview. Given such pronouncements and their history, Archeology as a discipline probably should have closed its doors at least half a century ago, if not before, as we had already discovered all their is to know about anything.

This is a mis-characterization of the current state of archaeology as a discipline, at least Americanist archaeology. I agree that these sort of attitudes have been present at various times and degrees in the history of our discipline, however, the Processual revolution in the late 1970s and 1980s largely mitigated this kind of research.

I know hundreds of archaeologists, and only a very small percentage of them make these kinds of statements, and these individuals are typically not taken seriously.

[handys003]

This is a mis-characterization of the current state of archeology as a discipline, at least Americanist archeology. I agree that these sort of attitudes have been present at various times and degrees in the history of our discipline, however, the Processual revolution in the late 1970s and 1980s largely mitigated this kind of research.

I know hundreds of archaeologists, and only a very small percentage of them make these kinds of statements, and these individuals are typically not taken seriously.

Therefore Dr. Zahi Hawass Director of Egyptian Pyramids and Chief inspector of Egyptian Antiquities not to be taken seriously? He asserts that astronomers, and geologists are wrong in dating the Sphinx older than 2500 BCE. Two disciplines countering his discipline.

[volgadon]

Therefore Dr. Zahi Hawass Director of Egyptian Pyramids and Chief inspector of Egyptian Antiquities not to be taken seriously?

Zahi Hawass is Zahi Hawass, his nationalistic agenda gets in the way of his scholarship.

[volgadon]

I gathered from your knowledge of Hebrew and other discussions that you were from the area. I wasn't sure of locality I was thinking more Israel. My assertion is that you do not discount a man based on little knowledge of their history. He has some viable observation which discounts Khor Kharfot.

I'm discounting him purely on his theories, which I have read.

I believe it has been shown here that he is mistaken on certain aspects of Khor Kharfot.

Add to note that Khor Rori natural harbor had many stalls dating back to 600 BCE that were loaded with frankincense waiting to be unloaded into ships by local villagers. The inhabitants lived many centuries before Nephi arrived and were trading among Africa and India. Nephi and his family would have needed maritime knowledge to succeed on his voyage and mariners from that are would have been ideal tutors. Also after viewing Khor Kharfot photos and speaking as one of the few who worked on and help build a Hawaiian voyaging canoe and as a navigator that there is no suitable places to build and launch a ship of such notable size at Khor Kharfot. A small canoe but not a large ship. Khor Rori provides a perfect sheltered harbor for such an endeavor. That is why Khor Rori is populated through it's history with a sea faring mariners and Khor Kharfot does not.

That the site was populated is telling, since the text seems to indicate that such was not the case.

The strongest evidence for contact with local Arabs is the phrasing the place called Nahom, whereas with Bountiful it is the place which 'we called Bountiful'. Since Nahom was already the place's name, they did not give it one of their own.

Nobody would let you simply waltz in and start eating their fruit. The rules of hospitality only really apply to travelers, anything longer than a few days and you have to pay or work your debt off. No indication of any of this. What is more, they had nothing to offer but labour.

Such a mendicant existence could hardly be termed Bountiful.

No mention of fish or bread, signs of habitation, only of fruit and honey.

Pitching one's tents by the sea would not have been feasible if this were a maritime centre, as that land would be controlled. You could pay to squat, or agree to work for them, but again, no indication of this.

Building a boat would not have been feasible either, as the timber would be controlled and local monopolies protected.

Why did Nephi have to build a boat and enlist his brothers, if they could have used local mariners and shipwrights?

I've noot personally seen the harbour, but we don't know the size or the make of the boat, and who says it was easy anyway?

[Zakuska]

That the site was populated is telling, since the text seems to indicate that such was not the case.

They gave the name of their Camp as Bountiful true. However... there are indications that there were people there.

The strongest evidence for contact with local Arabs is the phrasing the place called Nahom, whereas with Bountiful it is the place which 'we called Bountiful'. Since Nahom was already the place's name, they did not give it one of their own.

Nobody would let you simply waltz in and start eating their fruit. The rules of hospitality only really apply to travelers, anything longer than a few days and you have to pay or work your debt off. No indication of any of this. What is more, they had nothing to offer but labour.

Such a mendicant existence could hardly be termed Bountiful.

No mention of fish or bread, signs of habitation, only of fruit and honey.

Pitching one's tents by the sea would not have been feasible if this were a maritime centre, as that land would be controlled. You could pay to squat, or agree to work for them, but again, no indication of this.

Building a boat would not have been feasible either, as the timber would be controlled and local monopolies protected.

Why did Nephi have to build a boat and enlist his brothers, if they could have used local mariners and shipwrights?

I've noot personally seen the harbour, but we don't know the size or the make of the boat, and who says it was easy anyway?

And yet how was Nephi able to compare his boat to know that he wasn't constructing it the way other men were constructing theirs?

[volgadon]

And yet how was Nephi able to compare his boat to know that he wasn't constructing it the way other men were constructing theirs?

Perhaps because the Lord instructed him how?

[Zakuska]

Perhaps because the Lord instructed him how?

Theres no question the Lord drew up the plans. But Nephi would have had to be able to see other boats to be able to make the observation.

Its not like the coast line was unpopulated during the time.

[handys003]

I'm discounting him purely on his theories, which I have read.

I believe it has been shown here that he is mistaken on certain aspects of Khor Kharfot.

That the site was populated is telling, since the text seems to indicate that such was not the case.

The strongest evidence for contact with local Arabs is the phrasing the place called Nahom, whereas with Bountiful it is the place which 'we called Bountiful'. Since Nahom was already the place's name, they did not give it one of their own.

Nobody would let you simply waltz in and start eating their fruit. The rules of hospitality only really apply to travelers, anything longer than a few days and you have to pay or work your debt off. No indication of any of this. What is more, they had nothing to offer but labor.

Such a mendicant existence could hardly be termed Bountiful.

No mention of fish or bread, signs of habitation, only of fruit and honey.

Pitching one's tents by the sea would not have been feasible if this were a maritime centre, as that land would be controlled. You could pay to squat, or agree to work for them, but again, no indication of this.

Building a boat would not have been feasible either, as the timber would be controlled and local monopolies protected.

Why did Nephi have to build a boat and enlist his brothers, if they could have used local mariners and shipwrights?

I've noot personally seen the harbor, but we don't know the size or the make of the boat, and who says it was easy anyway?

In potters DVD's he address the protocol of paying Emirs of that time for safe passage. He explains halts, water wells, agricultural communities, etc... He also address how Lehi's family were apparently well educated and could have traded their skills in tutoring to pay off the debts. Also the metal working skills of Nephi as the indication of the ziff. Tents by the sea could be appropriate for the time as well.

Building a boat is not by any means easy. However the logistics needed to carry the size of the family, the amount of food and water, the sea worthiness of having to carry extra material for repair, the strength of the hull and mast for sailing would require a much larger ship. We could say he built a voyaging canoe similar to the Polynesian style, but not the case. It was large as the following scripture indicates:

1 Nephi 18:5,6

5 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord came unto my father, that we should arise and go down into the ship.

6 And it came to pass that on the morrow, after we had prepared all things, much fruits and ^ameat from the wilderness, and honey in abundance, and provisions according to that which the Lord had commanded us, we did go down into the ship, with all our loading and our ^bseeds, and whatsoever thing we had brought with us, every one according to his age; wherefore, we did all go down into the ^cship, with our wives and our children.

As we can see they went down and "into" the ship indicating a lower deck requiring more size than just a small canoe. In verse six we also see the same "into", but point out they had gathered much fruit and meats. Also "whatsoever things we brought with us". That means tools, tents, animals, etc... Logistically this would mean a very large and heavy supply for the amount of passengers.

1 Nephi 18:8

8 And it came to pass after we had all gone down into the ship, and had taken with us our provisions and things which had been commanded us, we did put forth into the ^asea and were driven forth before the wind towards the ^promised land.

This verse demonstrate sailing as they were "driven forth before the wind". This indicates more sail and mast for such a sizable ship demonstrated by the logistics above. They would have carried extra cloth for sail, and extra timber for mast and rudder, along with hull repair. All of the above shows complete need for a ship of several decks with great length.

1 Nephi 18:22

22 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did guide the ship, that we sailed again towards the promised land

Nephi "did guide the ship" thus demonstrating maritime skills to which he must have learned. He did not have these skill when he left Jerusalem. He learned it from someone else which to me did not specify the Lord. It must have come from the mariners at Khor Rori, but that is supposition as no scripture reference for such. However that is my opinion as that would be logical to connect.

[volgadon]

"go down into"

Were I speaking in Hebrew, I would say the same thing about a kayak!

That verb usage is no indication of size.

[handys003]

"go down into"

Were I speaking in Hebrew, I would say the same thing about a kayak!

That verb usage is no indication of size.

Pulling the old Hebrew out huh? Anyhow the logistics of such supplies and the size of mast, and sail for such a heavy load of supplies and people, demand either more decks with a deeper draft or a much longer and wider deck. Both in essence a larger ship.

[Droopy]

Therefore Dr. Zahi Hawass Director of Egyptian Pyramids and Chief inspector of Egyptian Antiquities not to be taken seriously? He asserts that astronomers, and geologists are wrong in dating the Sphinx older than 2500 BCE. Two disciplines countering his discipline.

Hawass is a creature of the Egyptian state and a relentless media hound. The History Channel and Discovery Channel can't get rid of him. You'd think he was the only Egyptologist in the Middle East. He was caught red handed perpetrating a fraud about ten years ago as I recall (a tomb he was going to open and explore on live TV, which as it turned out, had already be opened and explored...by Hawass himself.

[Droopy]

This is a mis-characterization of the current state of archaeology as a discipline, at least Americanist archaeology. I agree that these sort of attitudes have been present at various times and degrees in the history of our discipline, however, the Processual revolution in the late 1970s and 1980s largely mitigated this kind of research.

I know hundreds of archaeologists, and only a very small percentage of them make these kinds of statements, and these individuals are typically not taken seriously.

That's good to hear if true. My impression has long been that the relentless intellectual turf protecting against diffusionism by much of mainstream archeology isn't primarily rational or evidential. I'm a big fan of archeology, but don't have a great deal of time to pursue this particular field. The best I'm able to do is BAR now and then.

[volgadon]

Pulling the old Hebrew out huh?

it comes in handy.

Anyhow the logistics of such supplies and the size of mast, and sail for such a heavy load of supplies and people, demand either more decks with a deeper draft or a much longer and wider deck. Both in essence a larger ship.

Those are valid arguments. Things like 'go down into' aren't.

[Zakuska]

Those are valid arguments. Things like 'go down into' aren't.

Why not? We make that same Argument for Imersion Baptism...?

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

[volgadon]

Why not? We make that same Argument for Imersion Baptism...?

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Perhaps becuase I was speaking of a specific argument, upon which these verses have no bearing?

[Glenn101]

Do you know him personally to make such an assertion? Have you also seen his six-part DVD on the The Trail of Lehi or his DVD on the people of Lehi in Dedan? He has spent a great deal of time in the Middle East and contrary glenn there at Khor Rori is a National Park which is very tropical and looks very similar to Waipio Valley of the Big island of Hawaii plus it also has a natural harbor.

I do not know him personally. I only know what I have read. His description of Khor Kharfot (Wadi Sayq) does not indicate a knowledge of the existence of large sycamore trees in that valley. Others who have been there have noted such trees. Sycamore is a hardwood, has excellent bending properties, can be cut in either direction, and has been used in ship building, notably Egyptian.

Glenn

[cksalmon]

Hi ASE:

You said:

I don't understand. Why do you think that this is evidence for the Book of Mormon?

Asked and already answered by Zak:

Seems to depict Temple gard being used around the 3rd C. AD. in the area Nephi Built his ship.

Don't get it, yet?

Well, historically, events happened at locations. Thus, there is archeological evidence for BoM at Khor Rohri.

TEMPLE!

I wouldn't expect the discussion to go much deeper than this.

Some baser part of me really wants livy to broadcast this sort of "research" to a worldwide, breath-bated Youtube audience.

Best.

cks

[All-Seeing Eye]

Hi ASE:

You said:

Asked and already answered by Zak:

Don't get it, yet?

Well, historically, events happened at locations. Thus, there is archeological evidence for BoM at Khor Rohri.

TEMPLE!

I wouldn't expect the discussion to go much deeper than this.

Some baser part of me really wants livy to broadcast this sort of "research" to a worldwide, breath-bated Youtube audience.

Best.

cks

(1) Doesn't look like temple garb to me. What, every dude wearing a robe is dressed in temple clothing?

(2) I see no reason to assume that Nephite worship practices were anything like modern day temple practices.

[cksalmon]

(1) Doesn't look like temple garb to me. What, every dude wearing a robe is dressed in temple clothing?

(2) I see no reason to assume that Nephite worship practices were anything like modern day temple practices.

(1) Well, it's more than just that, per Zak: "Seems to depict Temple gard being used around the 3rd C. AD. in the area Nephi Built his ship." That is, this seems to him specifically like 3rd C AD, locationally-informed temple [garb].

(2) I don't think Zak has even begun the process of beginning to process your potential objection at this point.

Best.

cks

[Glenn101]

In all honesty... there are quite a few "ports" along the coast between Khor Kharfot and Khor Rori any one of which could have possibly been used. (Try a google earth and take a look for your self.) They both are on the same ocean plain one at either end. Khor Kharfot is a little of center IIRC. The whole area qualifies as the Land Bountiful. Now we are just splitting hairs.

I did not say exactly "splitting hairs", but I did say that the most important fact is that there exists several viable candidates for Bountiful in the right area, a narrow area geographically speaking.

One thing I think people miss is that Nephi said they did work "timbers" that seem to have been imported and previously "worked".

1 Ne. 18: 1-2

1 And it came to pass that they did worship the Lord, and did go forth with me; and we did work timbers of curious workmanship. And the Lord did show me from time to time after what manner I should work the timbers of the ship.

2 Now I, Nephi, did not work the timbers after the manner which was learned by men, neither did I build the ship after the manner of men; but I did build it after the manner which the Lord had shown unto me; wherefore, it was not after the manner of men.

Also finding a temple complex at Khor Rori releases the " lacking a nearby mountain" Critique.

That can be interpreted a couple of ways. It could be saying that they worked timbers in a manner not seen before.

Also in

Nephi 17: 8 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto me, saying: Thou shalt construct a ship, after the manner which I shall show thee, that I may carry thy people across these waters.

9 And I said: Lord, whither shall I go that I may find ore to molten, that I may make tools to construct the ship after the manner which thou hast shown unto me?

10 And it came to pass that the Lord told me whither I should go to find ore, that I might make tools.

11 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did make a bellows wherewith to blow the fire, of the skins of beasts; and after I had made a bellows, that I might have wherewith to blow the fire, I did smite two stones together that I might make fire.

If there was a shipbuilding industry already extant, why did Nephi have to make the tools. Also note that Nephi made the ship after the manner the Lord had showed him, and not after the normal manner of the day. This also is an argument against having trained ship builders to help build the ship.

16 And it came to pass that I did make tools of the ore which I did molten out of the rock.

17 And when my brethren saw that I was about to build a ship, they began to murmur against me, saying: Our brother is a fool, for he thinketh that he can build a ship; yea, and he also thinketh that he can cross these great waters.

18 And thus my brethren did complain against me, and were desirous that they might not labor, for they did not believe that I could build a ship; neither would they believe that I was instructed of the Lord.

Why would Nephi need untrained Laman and Lemuel to help if he had trained shipbuilders available?

Also, where would Nephi obtain the payola to hire people to help build a ship and to buy the timbers? Potter has suggested that Lehi may have sold his camels to finance the ship building, but unless he had a lot of camels, he would have come up woefully short of the funds to finance such an undertaking. Remember that Laban had confiscated all of the treasures that Nephi and company had tried to buy the brass plates with.

Glenn

[volgadon]

Potter has suggested that Lehi may have sold his camels to finance the ship building, but unless he had a lot of camels, he would have come up woefully short of the funds to finance such an undertaking.

It isn't even clear that he had any camels, let alone many.

[Glenn101]

Potter has suggested that Lehi may have sold his camels to finance the ship building, but unless he had a lot of camels, he would have come up woefully short of the funds to finance such an undertaking.

It isn't even clear that he had any camels, let alone many.

Unless the group were all supermen and women, it would have been physically impossible for them to carry all of the supplies necessary for desert travel in back packs. They had to utilize some type of beast of burden. Camels were the beast of choice for extended desert travel.

Glenn

[handys003]

I do not know him personally. I only know what I have read. His description of Khor Kharfot (Wadi Sayq) does not indicate a knowledge of the existence of large sycamore trees in that valley. Others who have been there have noted such trees. Sycamore is a hardwood, has excellent bending properties, can be cut in either direction, and has been used in ship building, notably Egyptian.

Glenn

I spoke to him on email yesterday. He does note the large Sycamore trees at Kharfot . He, as I corrected him myself, was given bad info by another person stating they were to knarly and knotted and not suited for timber for ship building. Khor Kharfot and Khor Rori are loaded with Sycamores. I however have looked at pics of Kharfot and based on my own conclusions from working on the Makali'i that the site is not condusive toward building a large ship and launching. There is no sheltered coves from the incoming Indian storms that would bring waves onto shore and destroy it's work. You need an area that is protected from incoming seas far from the shoreline and a waterway to float the ship out to sea with deep enough draft. Khor Rori has a perfect suitable inlet that allows such an undertaking to take place.

[handys003]

I did not say exactly "splitting hairs", but I did say that the most important fact is that there exists several viable candidates for Bountiful in the right area, a narrow area geographically speaking.

That can be interpreted a couple of ways. It could be saying that they worked timbers in a manner not seen before.

Also in

Nephi 17: 8 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto me, saying: Thou shalt construct a ship, after the manner which I shall show thee, that I may carry thy people across these waters.

9 And I said: Lord, whither shall I go that I may find ore to molten, that I may make tools to construct the ship after the manner which thou hast shown unto me?

10 And it came to pass that the Lord told me whither I should go to find ore, that I might make tools.

11 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did make a bellows wherewith to blow the fire, of the skins of beasts; and after I had made a bellows, that I might have wherewith to blow the fire, I did smite two stones together that I might make fire.

If there was a shipbuilding industry already extant, why did Nephi have to make the tools. Also note that Nephi made the ship after the manner the Lord had showed him, and not after the normal manner of the day. This also is an argument against having trained ship builders to help build the ship.

16 And it came to pass that I did make tools of the ore which I did molten out of the rock.

17 And when my brethren saw that I was about to build a ship, they began to murmur against me, saying: Our brother is a fool, for he thinketh that he can build a ship; yea, and he also thinketh that he can cross these great waters.

18 And thus my brethren did complain against me, and were desirous that they might not labor, for they did not believe that I could build a ship; neither would they believe that I was instructed of the Lord.

Why would Nephi need untrained Laman and Lemuel to help if he had trained shipbuilders available?

Also, where would Nephi obtain the payola to hire people to help build a ship and to buy the timbers? Potter has suggested that Lehi may have sold his camels to finance the ship building, but unless he had a lot of camels, he would have come up woefully short of the funds to finance such an undertaking. Remember that Laban had confiscated all of the treasures that Nephi and company had tried to buy the brass plates with.

Glenn

Barter systems were prevalent during and up through the 19th century. They did not have to come up with cash. They were well educated as we read before leaving on their exodus. They could have trade skill work for goods as an indentured servant. This had to be as they had to pay tribute to all the Emirs along the frankincense trail and do the same with no money. Also Nephi as did others had to have their own tools. Carpenters even today must have their own tools to build homes. They were highly valuable and not readily borrowed. Also if you were a local mariner, and found out of Nephi and his plans. What would you do? Drop everything you do to help him on his foolish notion? I would be laughing my okole off at him. What your gonna build a boat and sail without an inkling of such knowledge to do so? God told you? Whatevers Nephi! Your gonna get killed and I'm not gonna help you do it. Noah built his ark alone with his family. Now bugger off.

We see it all the time out here in Hawaii. Many tourists rent kayaks and say they are going to paddle to the other valley. We tell them don't do it just stay around here as the waters are safe. What happens they go off and get caught in rip currents and their kayak shows up but not the tourist. 5 to 6 a year so sad and too bad could've listened to the local. We are not gonna stop you from being foolish if you don't want to listen. Ditto with the surfers taking on wave action and not knowing the layout of the area. The bottom is not always sandy.

I'm sure Nephi got some pointers but probably more comedic laughter at his endeavor. Apparently his brothers were not keen on learning or leaving. After all why would you want to leave what seems paradise after the tortuous hell they just went through. You wonder why Nephi was almost thrown off the cliff?