How would you answer this question?

[consiglieri]

The scriptural creation account always had a connection to the temple, and shouldn't be removed from that context.

I think this is an exellent point, and one I fully intend on using in Sunday School when we get to the construction of the tabernacle in the wilderness.

Unless too many students report me to the bishop and I am released before then.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[katherine the great]

"I don't mean to throw a monkey wrench into everything, but don't you think you are overly intellectualizing all of this? I mean, isn't the only important thing that we believe that God created the world?"

How would you answer this question?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

You are absolutely right Brother fifty something. God created everything... Well, that covers everything. We have about thirty minutes left. What are your thoughts on Favre and Romo?

[cdowis]

I love these threads about Consig's lessons. He sounds like an awesome teacher to me, but its just hilarious to watch the pharisees of the board get so bent out of shape with how he teaches. Someone ought to go complain to the bishop? Puh-lease!

Anyone who knows me from this forum knows that I am no pharasee, and I find your comments and crude noises and gestures insulting. I find it interesting how you mock those who disagree with you, not only with names but with crude gestures.

In any case, there is a time and place for such topics and discussions. Talk about ex nihlo, Adam God, Calling and Election made sure, polygamy all you want, but in the appropriate venue. I mentioned the SS pres and bishop, not to dispense punishment, but to give **counsel** on how to teach appropriately.

For example, the teach may want to read the manual "No Greater Calling" where the guidelines for teaching are set out.

Finally, regarding your attitude towards me and members of the church ==>> if you think we are a church of pharasees, then may I humbly suggest that you take yourself and your crude noises and start another church where you can teach anything you want.

Best of luck.

[volgadon]

Your Xmas bonus consists entirely of the additional blessings you receive through being my spokesman, said blessings to be delivered to you courtesy of opening the windows of heaven, a phrase I mentioned to my class we consider poetic but which the ancient Hebrews took quite literally.

Which is just another scripture (Malachi 3 which Mormons tend to quote a lot) that is illuminated by our understanding of the culture from which it came.

I also had the class read the account of the flood in Genesis 7, and they got to understand what the author meant by saying the floods of the great deep were broken up and the windows of heaven were opened.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

And that Malachi verse, BTW, is one of the ways we know that the firmament was what you said it was in ancient Hebrew cosmology.

The town I grew up in consisted mostly of North African and Yemenite Jews, and they took the windows of heaven saying literally, so I grew up with that understanding.

Rain (and dew) were a way of teaching ancient Israel who God was in relationship to them. If we don't get the right rain at the right times, nothing grows.

If nothing grows, you die.

Rain was also tied up with the concept which we in the church would call priesthood keys!

At any rate, I knew I should have read the fine print. Xmas bonus indeed, a bunch of snow. =)

[Zakuska]

I know it's hard to believe I actually had class members read the scriptures in my class, but there you have it.

But dontcha know Consig. If they read anything outside the proscribed scriptures for the particular lesson being taught, Cdowis will have you reported to the bishop and an iquisition will ensue.

You're lucky they don't fry you at the stake house.

[consiglieri]

In any case, there is a time and place for such topics and discussions.

Actually, it seems the LDS Church has done everything it can to make sure there is no time or place for such topics or discussions.

The motto of the Pharisee appears to be that all truth can be circumscribed into one tiny circle.

The important thing for the Pharisee is not to seek further light and knowledge, but to teach the orthodox religion.

Or so I'm told.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

its just hilarious to watch the pharisees of the board get so bent out of shape with how he teaches.

If I were an outsider looking in, I would agree it is hilarious.

From the inside, it's pretty funny anyway, but mixed with concern at how far we have come from the religion Joseph Smith founded, in which he reveled in the freedom to believe more and more, and in which it felt so good to him to "not be trammeled."

I hope you do not take offense, BlackMo, but after a year, I changed my signature from your quote to one from Joseph Smith that I think reflects my teaching style.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Zakuska]

It is pretty cool. For me, I now find the tabernacle connection the best way for me to remember the order. Just visualize the tabernacle, and move from the Holy of Holies outwards:

Day 1: Light = Holy of Holies

Day 2: Firmament/Separation of Heaven and Earth = The Veil

Day 3: Plant Life = Table of Shewbread

Day 4: Sun, Moon, Stars = The 7-branched Lampstand

Day 5: Sea creatures and Fowl from the seas = The Laver of water

Day 6a: Land Creatures = Altar of Burnt Offering

Day 6b: Man = The High Priest

Lets take this a step further... Visualize you own body.

Day 1: Light/Holy Ghost/Blessings from on high = The heart of man were God walks and dwells, the mind and the heart

Day 2: Shoulders and lungs: Breath of life also part of the heart of man: Diaphram = Veil that separates mans Higher functions with "Earth processing" organs

Day 3: Shewbread = Nurisment "Health in the Navel"

Day 4: Veins and Arteries begin to branch here

Day 5: Kidneys and Bladder and reporductive functions (Waters of Life)

Day 6a-b: Boaz and Jochim who support the cosmic man/woman

The man is standing above th Altar (sun) and Laver of twelve oxen (Moon).

[thesometimesaint]

consiglieri:

I've been in enough Gospel Rumor classes to know that isn't true.

Are you implying that the Church is Pharisaical?

Without a basic understanding of what the Church actually teaches I don't see how teaching further light and knowledge is much of a help. Kinda like teaching calculus to a bunch of First Graders.

Or so I'm told.

[LDSToronto]

In any case, there is a time and place for such topics and discussions. Talk about ex nihlo, Adam God, Calling and Election made sure, polygamy all you want, but in the appropriate venue. I mentioned the SS pres and bishop, not to dispense punishment, but to give **counsel** on how to teach appropriately.

For example, the teach may want to read the manual "No Greater Calling" where the guidelines for teaching are set out.

I'm with you, cdowis. What consig (and teachers like him) does is interesting, but tends to contain too much speculation. For instance, I still can't see the point of the divided list that he made - while interesting, I'm not sure it really means much.

This type of thing comes up in Sunday Schools everywhere, whether the teacher is the source or whether it's a member who makes a point about something. Whenever I hear an opinion that sounds speculative, or based on worldly research, I never hesitate to raise my hand and question the it's validity and source and contrast it to what prophets, apostles, and scriptures say on the topic.

If I were in consig's class, I doubt he'd get past his first few points before I had him pinned under a mountain of questions regarding the position he takes and the sources he uses.

H.

[Zakuska]

If I were in consig's class, I doubt he'd get past his first few points before I had him pinned under a mountain of questions regarding the position he takes and the sources he uses.

H.

I wonder if you would do the same thing to Paul... When he quoted Pagan Poets?

Acts 17

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man

[LDSToronto]

I hope you do not take offense, BlackMo, but after a year, I changed my signature from your quote to one from Joseph Smith that I think reflects my teaching style.

Joseph Smith held keys, he was a prophet, and was entitled to the 'hidden mysteries' - he used revelation and guidance from the Holy Ghost and Jesus Christ Himself!

Do you see yourself as Joseph?

H.

[Zakuska]

Joseph Smith held keys, he was a prophet, and was entitled to the 'hidden mysteries' - he used revelation and guidance from the Holy Ghost and Jesus Christ Himself!

Do you see yourself as Joseph?

H.

Aren't we all?

Num. 11: 29

29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord

[consiglieri]

Do you see yourself as Joseph?

Yes, frankly, I do.

And this is what Joseph wanted for all the members of the church he founded.

There was nothing made known to these men but what will be made known to all the Saints of the last days, so soon as they are prepared to receive.

Joseph was about learning more and more, not teaching less and less.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

If I were in consig's class, I doubt he'd get past his first few points before I had him pinned under a mountain of questions regarding the position he takes and the sources he uses.

And, like Joseph, many who try to pin me find out I'm a pretty good wrestler.

[consiglieri]

Without a basic understanding of what the Church actually teaches I don't see how teaching further light and knowledge is much of a help. Kinda like teaching calculus to a bunch of First Graders.

All the members of my Gospel Doctrine class already have a basic understanding of what the Church actually teaches.

To continue keeping them in the dark is a disservice to them as well as to the limitless illuminations the Gospel affords.

Or maybe not . . .

Something about a light and a bushel keeps coming to mind, here.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Zakuska]

Yes, frankly, I do.

And this is what Joseph wanted for all the members of the church he founded.

There was nothing made known to these men but what will be made known to all the Saints of the last days, so soon as they are prepared to receive.

Joseph was about learning more and more, not teaching less and less.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

AMEN!

[thesometimesaint]

consiglieri:

You'd think that but then I've been in more than enough "Gospel Rumor" classes to think differently.

[Senator]

consiglieri:

I've been in enough Gospel Rumor classes to know that isn't true.

I have too, which is why the subject of this discussion becomes somewhat ironic, (and comical). I would have to say that many of the SS classes that I have been in attendance in, have been chuck-o-block full of participants' personal "takes", interpretations, musings regarding prescribed topic matter that in and of itself is overtly general and vague. (so much so, that I also received and elbow to the ribs (like Connolly) after I let out a quiet chuckle to some to the comments)

To me this is ok. We have to undertake such mental exercise in order to give personal relevance to certain vague or mysterious ideas; the pre-mortal existence or creation for example.

What is ironic, is when a teacher attempts to studiously ground such vague ideas, he is then castigated for it.

[consiglieri]

What is ironic, is when a teacher attempts to studiously ground such vague ideas, he is then castigated for it.

I don't mind the castigation so much.

It's the castration that worries me.

[ERayR]

Here is the set up for the question that I would like to know how you would answer . . .

Okay, so you are the Gospel Doctrine teacher; you have spent literally hours of prep time during the week preceding class in order to help your class understand the Creation account in terms of the ancient Hebrew cosmic view; you are going through the different days, explaining what is happening in those terms, and showing the structure of how the days relate to each other.

You have talked briefly about how Moses 1 serves as a good introduction to the first line of Genesis, by explaining that "In the beginning" does not mean "in the beginning" of the universe, but simply "in the beginning" of this world alone; you have mentioned how Old Testament scholars have a solid majority stating that whatever Genesis means here, it does NOT mean creation ex nihilo, which is important for LDS because we have scriptures committing us to that position in Section 93.

As you are moving through this material, a 50-something male student raises his hand and is called on, who then asks this question:

"I don't mean to throw a monkey wrench into everything, but don't you think you are overly intellectualizing all of this? I mean, isn't the only important thing that we believe that God created the world?"

How would you answer this question?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Yes.

[thesometimesaint]

OOOH.

[Senator]

I don't mind the castigation so much.

It's the castration that worries me.

Blessed are those "that have made themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heavens sake"!

EDITED:[added quotes....to give it greater authority]

[ERayR]

I love these threads about Consig's lessons. He sounds like an awesome teacher to me, but its just hilarious to watch the pharisees of the board get so bent out of shape with how he teaches. Someone ought to go complain to the bishop? Puh-lease! If I were in Consig's class and heard that question, I would have stood up, looked at the guy, and made a Doug Hefernin fart noise with my hand.

I do not get bent with Consig's teaching style. The question was one of sufficiency and the answer is yes it is sufficient. The other is interesting but not necessary.

[Black Moclips]

Anyone who knows me from this forum knows that I am no pharasee, and I find your comments and crude noises and gestures insulting. I find it interesting how you mock those who disagree with you, not only with names but with crude gestures.

In any case, there is a time and place for such topics and discussions. Talk about ex nihlo, Adam God, Calling and Election made sure, polygamy all you want, but in the appropriate venue. I mentioned the SS pres and bishop, not to dispense punishment, but to give **counsel** on how to teach appropriately.

For example, the teach may want to read the manual "No Greater Calling" where the guidelines for teaching are set out.

Finally, regarding your attitude towards me and members of the church ==>> if you think we are a church of pharasees, then may I humbly suggest that you take yourself and your crude noises and start another church where you can teach anything you want.

Best of luck.

Easy there Tex, settle down. Such offense taken by an imaginary fart noise in an imaginary scenario? I didn't even actually do it either, but just so you can fully understand the experience, here is how to do it: Place your hand out straight, thumb extended upwards like you are going to shake someone's hand. Then bring the hand to your mouth, placing the L formed by the thumb and hand firmly across your upper lip. Then blow. Try it a few times. When ever you feel yourself starting to get way too serious, honk one out. Now you can fully understand and can be fully offended if you so choose.

Just like you are free to give you opinion, I am free to give mine. If you don't think you are pharisaical, then don't sweat it. Many of the comments here sound that way TO ME. Here is what to say, how to say it, blah blah blah. I can just imagine comments like yours coming from some old guys with beards, in robes, standing in the back of class, counting their tassels and scrutinizing every word said just to make sure it agrees with the manual and approved teaching style, or else you may need some counseling from the church leadership. Same concept as Zak's eagle.

Consig obviously studies and prepares well for his lessons, plus he has stated many times he seeks the Spirit when he teaches. That is enough for me, and in my opinion, ought be enough for everyone.