The Geocentric Model of Abraham 3

[volgadon]

Ok, does this make you happy?

It looks to me like Abraham is seeing a view as if flying around, either among these great stars or looking into the region where they are.

My question still stands.

[cinepro]

Ok, does this make you happy?

My question still stands.

I think what he is saying is that Abraham's perspective is from outside the universe, so he can see the stars in relation to each other and Earth, like this:

But I suppose it's possible he saw it from an Earthly perspective, like this, but then he really wouldn't need a U&T:

[Woody]

I suppose the theory would be that even with knowledge of the size and scale of the stars, Abraham may still have assumed they were orbiting the Earth?

I don't think he mentions this assumption. I'll guess the question just didn't come up, "what makes these orbs just hang there without falling down?" But Mormon and/or Helaman understood the rotation of the earth (Helaman 12:15) and there is various other evidence the ancients knew the earth was round. In Abraham 3 we see that the spin rate of a planet shows its level in the grand scheme of things, including the earth; this implies that Abraham understood that the earth rotates. Then there's this:

...this is one of the governing planets also ... the governing power, which governs fifteen other fixed planets or stars, as also Floeese or the Moon, the Earth and the Sun in their annual revolutions. (Book of Abraham Facsimile 2, Explanation for fig. 5)

Did you know that the sun has "annual revolutions"? In Newtonian physics, an object does not just orbit another object. They both orbit their common center of gravity. This is how we have detected the existence of well over a hundred extrasolar planets - the stars they orbit wobble. As the earth orbits the sun, the sun swings around a little in opposition. Also, the moon and the earth can be said to orbit each other, or they can be said to both be orbiting the sun, sharing an orbit; so the moon too has "annual revolutions". Something that correct doesn't fit with a paradigm of concentric crystalline shells.

God knows about physics: The earth rolls upon her wings, and the sun giveth his light by day, and the moon giveth her light by night, and the stars also give their light, as they roll upon their wings in their glory, in the midst of the power of God. (DC 88:45)

In relativistic physics, a star or planet warps space in the region around it, with a shape that resembles wings on some aircraft. Also, there is usually a magnetic field around them, with a graceful shape to it.

After all, it's all relative in the end.

Well, yes. Every person sees themself as the center of the universe.

Wood

[Woody]

Quote____________It looks to me like Abraham is seeing a view as if flying around, either among these great stars or looking into the region where they are.------------------

My question still stands.

How do I get that from the text. Well, it reads like this:

And I, Abraham, had the Urim and Thummim, ... and I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it...

Abraham saw the stars, somehow using the Urim and Thummim. He saw their size or mass or greatness in some way. He understood something about the spatial relationships among them. How would you determine spatial relationships? I'd do it by looking. Even if all I had was a readout of distances, I'd probably try to construct a diagram or a model of some kind. There just isn't any better way to understand something that's in 3D than to see it in 3D and be able to look around. Abraham's language seems to say to me that he was seeing this, as if he was either "flying around" among these stars, or seeing them in 3D somehow.

We see many stars in our sky which appear right next to each other, but they aren't - they are at vastly different distances. Our eyes being a few cm apart, we can't determine far distances unless we can move around a bit. A lot of astronomical puzzles could be answered if we had a 3D view of some of these things, for instance if we built a space telescope and sent it out of the solar system, like the Voyager spacecraft(s), to give a 3D view in conjunction with the view from here on earth.

I suppose this might hint that Abraham was able to move his point of view around in order to determine spatial relationships. Or maybe he just grokked it.

Wood

P.S. I can still remember the astonishment I felt the first time I turned my telescope on the center star of Orion's sword. I think I said, "What in the hell is that?" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messier_42

[Nofear]

God knows about physics: The earth rolls upon her wings, and the sun giveth his light by day, and the moon giveth her light by night, and the stars also give their light, as they roll upon their wings in their glory, in the midst of the power of God. (DC 88:45)

In relativistic physics, a star or planet warps space in the region around it, with a shape that resembles wings on some aircraft. Also, there is usually a magnetic field around them, with a graceful shape to it.

The warping of space time from a rotating body in no way reflects a wing (even from profile it isn't an airfoil shape). The magnetosphere from the earth only adopts a tail because of the solar wind. It too isn't airfoil. A teardrop isn't a wing shape. In short, I would suggest dropping this analogy from your toolbox of discussion.

[Nofear]

And I, Abraham, had the Urim and Thummim, ... and I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it...

Abraham saw the stars, somehow using the Urim and Thummim. He saw their size or mass or greatness in some way. He understood something about the spatial relationships among them. How would you determine spatial relationships? I'd do it by looking. Even if all I had was a readout of distances, I'd probably try to construct a diagram or a model of some kind. There just isn't any better way to understand something that's in 3D than to see it in 3D and be able to look around. Abraham's language seems to say to me that he was seeing this, as if he was either "flying around" among these stars, or seeing them in 3D somehow.

He appears to have established the distance relationship from their time of revolutions. "And where these two facts exist, there shall be another fact above them, that is, there shall be another planet whose reckoning of time shall be longer still; And thus there shall be the reckoning of the time of one planet above another, until thou come nigh unto Kolob, which Kolob is after the reckoning of the Lord

[volgadon]

But his writings on the stars are strictly theological.

[Woody]

The warping of space time from a rotating body in no way reflects a wing (even from profile it isn't an airfoil shape).

That's cool, I was thinking of it as if looking at it in profile. Here is a webpage with a diagram of the sun's gravity well.

http://jila.colorado...ySituation.html

If looked at in profile, one would see the sun in the middle with a curve on each side, going steeply up then curving flatter, out farther. I can't force you to say it looks like wings, or even see the resemblance, but I think of dihedral:

http://www.centennia...y_II/TH27G8.htm

Reflect that the term wings could mean something besides airfoil. Dictionary.com includes these definitions:

6. a means or instrument of flight, travel, or progress.

8. something resembling or likened to a bird's wing, as a vane or sail of a windmill.

10. Architecture. a part of a building projecting on one side of, or subordinate to, a central or main part.

A wing could be just anything that sticks out, if someone wants to see it poetically.

The magnetosphere from the earth only adopts a tail because of the solar wind. It too isn't airfoil. A teardrop isn't a wing shape. In short, I would suggest dropping this analogy from your toolbox of discussion.

So let's see, we have something that sticks out beyond the surface and atmosphere of a planet as it moves thru space. It interacts with (solar) wind. But it can't be a wing?

Wood

[Woody]

He appears to have established the distance relationship from their time of revolutions.

I see your point, it could be that way. But I'm not sure it must be that way.

Abraham almost certainly understood the sidereal day of the earth as being less than 24 hours.

How you arrive at that?

Wood

[Zakuska]

This week we are talking about Abraham 3 in Gospel Doctrine class.

As part of the lesson, I plan on reviewing some of the findings in the paper, "And I Saw the Stars," The Book of Abraham and Ancient Geocentric Astronomy, by John Gee, William J. Hamblin, and Daniel C. Peterson.

<SNIP>

Thanks for the heads up Consig. Im subbing for the GD teacher tomorow, and I might just follow your lead.

[Zakuska]

Woody:

We're not the center of the Solar System, let alone the Milky Way Galaxy, let alone the Universe.

My wife is the center of my Universe.

[thesometimesaint]

Zakuska:

Mine too.