Idolatry / Adultery - Denying the Faith

[katherine the great]

However, I would caution against comparing the relstionship between Christ and the Church and a married human couple.

You may want to let the Lord know that because that is exactly what He did; numerous times.

[mfbukowski]

Real quick:

The train of thought in this thread is why I have to give the talk.

What is happening in the church? Where is this going to go?

[Facsimile 3]

Do you really believe that the only thing wrong with adultery is the fact that the adulterer has not yet filed for divorce? As the child of a divorce, I will say loud and clear the DIVORCE SUCKS FOR THE CHILDREN!!!!" It is ten times harder for the children than it ever is for the parents. Of course in cases of ongoing or severe abuse, or intentional non support (financial and emotional) it may be the best thing for the children. In the case of "sexless or unhappy marriage", that is no excuse to put the children through a divorce. It screws up everything for the children--their stability, their self esteem, holidays. It shatters their entire world. Unless the divorce is completely amicable and both partners make the children their absolute #1 priority, divorce is a terrible price for children to have to pay so that their mom or dad can enjoy "good sex." I have only seen a handful of amicable and "child friendly" divorces. Most divorces I see are absolutely horrific for the children. In the case of a couple with no children, I think divorce can be a viable option to "irreconcilable differences" but I still firmly believe that most differences are not irreconcilable if both parties try their best to make their marriage work.

I agree with you Katherine. I was one of the lucky ones who had a pretty good situation come out of my parent's divorce although it would have been far better however, if the one parent who wanted out would have loved the Lord and us more than material possessions and the praises of man. The Lord could have not only helped him stay, but change his heart to be happy to stay. There are some seriously bad situations however, that can be even worse where divorce does not occur i.e. abuse or where a father persistently (for a decade) cheats on the spouse and the spouse feels like it is all part of the whole for better or for worse thing. I know people from these situations and divorce would have been crucial in helping them form a more healthy picture of what marriage should be and they would have had much less baggage that way. One such child from this kind of marriage is now a lesbian and thinks of heterosexual marriage as her parents marriage. Sometimes saying to your children, "this was a really bad example of marriage and it could be a million times better", gives them a better example than a perceived eternal hell. Essentially I think as parents they are selling their values to their children by their examples and that swings both ways.

If couples BOTH strive to live according to the ideals of selflessness that Jesus taught then adultery rates would plummet (in and outside the Church).

It's very simple, but the truth!

[Fiannan]

You may want to let the Lord know that because that is exactly what He did; numerous times.

My point is that Christ was perfect while we will all fall short. Christ got nailed to a cross to attone for our sins, what person would take their husband/wife's place if he/she were convicted of a crime they actually did commit and were sentenced to death? That's what Christ did for us.

And Facsimile, great points!

As for psychological abuse, which I have seen my share of even in LDS couples, maybe we should take a lesson from the French:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=122362876&ps=cprs I know they are putting most of the blame on men in this article but I have seen just as many women who psychologically abuse their husbands and children.

[katherine the great]

maybe we should take a lesson from the French:

Maybe we shouldn't! The only thing I'll ever take from a moronic government that would make it illegal to call my spouse an idiot when he's being an idiot is the unfortunate French blood in my veins. What's next? Making it illegal to" think" a mean thought about my spouse?

[O-Brother]

This is true, there are a variety of reasons people cheat on their wives or husbands. Some are:

1) Punishment. Some people will cheat due to abuse by their spouse (probably most often psychological).

2) Someone showing interest in them while their spouse refuses to bring themselves to share life in a meaningful way.

3) Imbalance. This can be due, for instance, a wife becoming extremely athletic while her husband packs on the pounds without regard for his health.

4) Sub conscious desire to reprodiuce. Many males and females start having affairs when they reach the number of children their spouse desires. Many males do the whole "midlife crisis" thing when their wife hits menopause.

5) Thrill seeking.

The list goes on and on.

Now contrary to popular belief adultery usually does not lead to divorce -- well, not sure about LDS situations where some women feel they are justified for divorcing their husbands because he might look at porn once in a while. Yeah, no better way to bring up children than in a fractured family. In the general population if divorce does take place, and adultery is given as a reason, it is often just one reason of many already existing.

I suppose one thing LDS people should think about before cheating is that maybe if one endures to the end they will get blessed with a better husband in the next life or a man might get blessed with several superior wives. Yet if one cheats they jeopardize that happening perhaps.

There is a lot of truth in what you stated above. Adultery is NOT justified, though because it does betray trust and it is a serious sin but so is a neglected relationship or a wrong relationship to begin with. I am witnessing a case right now where a mistake is being made from the start and it's just a matter of time before this one marriage falls apart. I think the reason why Christ was quick to forgive the adulteress is probably because He knew her heart and who knows what she might be going through at a time when adultery was punishable by death - in some middle eastern countries it still is - She took a lot of chances to do what she did.

If find it interesting that we know nothing about the man she was with. There are some situations out there that practically force people to betray their spouses, abuse is one of them. However, it would be better to divoce and re-marry than divoce because of betrayal. So, there is a right and a wrong way to go about things if one is to maintain their status in the Church and their spirituality. Your observations are more in line with what happens in the real world. If you look at the simplicity of how people decide to marry for time and all eternity and the complexity of living with a wrong decision about a marriage partner, you can see why a percentage of marriages fall apart. There are some real interesting stories out there where both men and women jump the fence. I know a few cases where people actually found their true love after marriage. I also know of one particular case where tragedy hit after sin.

[notHagoth7]

The only thing I'll ever take from a moronic government that would make it illegal to call my spouse an idiot when he's being an idiot is the unfortunate French blood in my veins. What's next? Making it illegal to" think" a mean thought about my spouse?

No. You're a few steps too far ahead. What's next is to make it illegal to call that gov't moronic.

[O-Brother]

Wow. I see so much wrong with your statement, I'm not sure where to begin. First of all, are you married and do you have children? If not then I will write off your comments as inexperience. Do you really believe that the only thing wrong with adultery is the fact that the adulterer has not yet filed for divorce? As the child of a divorce, I will say loud and clear the DIVORCE SUCKS FOR THE CHILDREN!!!!" It is ten times harder for the children than it ever is for the parents. Of course in cases of ongoing or severe abuse, or intentional non support (financial and emotional) it may be the best thing for the children. In the case of "sexless or unhappy marriage", that is no excuse to put the children through a divorce. It screws up everything for the children--their stability, their self esteem, holidays. It shatters their entire world. Unless the divorce is completely amicable and both partners make the children their absolute #1 priority, divorce is a terrible price for children to have to pay so that their mom or dad can enjoy "good sex." I have only seen a handful of amicable and "child friendly" divorces. Most divorces I see are absolutely horrific for the children. In the case of a couple with no children, I think divorce can be a viable option to "irreconcilable differences" but I still firmly believe that most differences are not irreconcilable if both parties try their best to make their marriage work.

As to the adultress in the scriptures, I think you are missing the point of the story. Absolutely no where does Jesus imply that adultery is no big deal. He does not condemn the woman and tells her to not do it again. If a person does fall into temptation because of their bad marriage or weaknesses of the flesh, they can and should be forgiven and they should go back to their spouse and quit cheating. It in no way implies that the woman should go divorce her husband and marry someone who is better in the sack.

No. I am married and I have children and I am experienced and my wife agrees with me. What's wrong with adultery is that a person should "divorce" his or her spouse before falling into the arms of someone else to commit sin. In other words, if the relationship isn't working out, people should divorce before they make a tragic mistake that affects them spiritually, i.e., the act of adultery. As far as the children are concerned, they're not better off with an adulterous parent if the love is gone. It does them harm just as much as when one of the parents is gone. For example, I know one couple where the guy just didn't love his first wife anymore. They had children. He found the person that really made him happy, got divorced and he's very happy in his new realtionship while still maintaining a relationship with his ex-wife and full access to his children. His words to me: "It simply didn't work out..." I also know of another case where the wife found her true love in life, same situation, divorce and a happier relationship. The fact is that people do make wrong and right choices for marriage and that's partly why there are so many divorces. When a couple is truly made for each other, divorce and betrayal rarely happens, especially in a conservative religious setting. When people are marrying at 19 and 21, there is a margin for error. I know another case where the man has been married 3 times. The first wife wanted him to provide a lifestyle he couldn't afford. So she went look for someone else with more money. The second wife wanted him to be more assertive and more in charge. The marriage lated 1 year. The third wife, the one he's happy with is the match he should have married to begin with. How many people do you know who have divorced 2-3 times? That means that they are/were looking for the right match. Some people hit it right first time, others take 1-2 divorces before they find the person they're very happy with. What I am stating is that committing adultery is wrong but it's highly overrated. There are many reasons that drive people to betray their partner and it's not always the fault of the adulterer. I have seen relationships where one partner is practically driving the other into insanity and yes, in cases like that, one should move on but do it the right way: divorce. No where does Jesus imply that it IS a big deal either, Katherine because each situation is different and He forgives the adulterer(ess) depending on the circumstances. I used to think that anyone who committed adultery was just a a cheat, cheap person until I started seeing what some people go through in a marriage relationship then I began to understand why some jump the fence. Not all cases involve innocence. There is physical and emotional abuse, neglect, drug addictions, betrayal of the faith and many other factors. Go to some other forums and you will read about cases where one of the partners simply decided to ditch the Church altogether while his poor wife feels like everything she hoped for and dreamed about went out the window. And vice-versa. In other cases, one of the partners begins to smoke, drink, hang out with buddies, etc. and neglects the wife/husband and children. As you can see, it's not all black and white as people are different. Some people marry for the wrong reasons, prestige, money, emotional support, etc. and then when things fall apart, they get going. I am no longer quick to judge people who commit adultery because now I've seen what some of them had to put up with in their relationships. I just wish that they would not commit adultery but rather worked out their problem through counseling, prayer, etc. and got divorced if they knew that the relationship was going south. I agree that they should go back and quit cheating or get out of the relationship altogether. Staying married because of the children only is debatable.