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A Place Called Mormon


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I came across this interesting article and referenced it to some scriptures:

Mosiah 18:4-5, 8, 12, 14-16

4 And it came to pass that as many as did believe him did go forth to a aplace which was called Mormon, having received its name from the king, being in the bborders of the land having been infested, by times or at seasons, by wild beasts. 5 Now, there was in Mormon a fountain of pure water, and Alma resorted thither, there being near the water a thicket of small trees, where he did hide himself in the daytime from the searches of the king.

8 And it came to pass that he said unto them: Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are adesirous to come into the b of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another

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I came across this interesting article and referenced it to some scriptures:

Mosiah 18:4-5, 8, 12, 14-16

4 And it came to pass that as many as did believe him did go forth to a aplace which was called Mormon, having received its name from the king, being in the bborders of the land having been infested, by times or at seasons, by wild beasts. 5 Now, there was in Mormon a fountain of pure water, and Alma resorted thither, there being near the water a thicket of small trees, where he did hide himself in the daytime from the searches of the king.

8 And it came to pass that he said unto them: Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are adesirous to come into the b of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another

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  • 5 weeks later...

The waters of Mormon kind of could be almost anywhere going solely on the description in the text. But good find! Big waters -- many waters, it's just as good a connection as you'll find in many old LDS books that mention parallels with this and that place. We're just putting possibilities out there, that's all we can do at this point.

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I don't have the time or inclination for a detailed discussion at this point, but I just can't remain silent again.

This is a frequent problem for LGT in Mesoamerica. Defenders of LGT in Mesoamerica simultaneously insist that BoM polities had no detectable influence on the cultural evolution of Mesoamerica because they were insignificant and minor polities, and then turn around and posit the most powerful polities in the region as possible candidates for BoM polities.

Palenque was an incredibly powerful polity. So were other polities that other LGTists have suggested for BoM polities, like Kaminaljuyu. If Palenque or Kaminaljuyu were actually Judeo-Christian, then we would see the influence of Judeo-Christianity on the evolution of the entire region.

The reason LGTists keep choosing the most powerful polities is because of the social complexity described in the BoM. The social complexity described in the BoM only fits the social complexity of the most powerful polities of Mesoamerica. IOW

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Beastie, haven't seen you around in a while.

Are the normal anti site hangouts getting boring?

As a believing member of the Church, I can see some merit in some of your arguments against the LGT folks, however, you are off base. The BoM is indeed epic, and contains several groups, dissenters, tribes, etc, that spread out across ancient America. Trying to limit it's scope to fit your anti agenda serves no purpose.

And no, to be "consistent with past prophets and stick with the Great Lakes region" is a fantasy on your part. Yes they taught a New York setting as the final destruction site, but certainly not the whole of it's civilization. I suspect that if you actually read what the past prophets have said, you might learn more than geography.

Cheers.

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Beastie, haven't seen you around in a while.

Are the normal anti site hangouts getting boring?

As a believing member of the Church, I can see some merit in some of your arguments against the LGT folks, however, you are off base. The BoM is indeed epic, and contains several groups, dissenters, tribes, etc, that spread out across ancient America. Trying to limit it's scope to fit your anti agenda serves no purpose.

And no, to be "consistent with past prophets and stick with the Great Lakes region" is a fantasy on your part. Yes they taught a New York setting as the final destruction site, but certainly not the whole of it's civilization. I suspect that if you actually read what the past prophets have said, you might learn more than geography.

Cheers.

I bolded your assertion that is music to the ears of critics.

You adhere to the hemispheric model, eh? Wow. That's brave. And ill-informed, as many of your fellow believers would probably inform you. Or, to quote John Clark, "you're toast".

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I bolded your assertion that is music to the ears of critics.

You adhere to the hemispheric model, eh? Wow. That's brave. And ill-informed, as many of your fellow believers would probably inform you. Or, to quote John Clark, "you're toast".

Brave has nothing to do with it. I trust the words of the prophets over some modern scholars. I may be in the minority for this site, but there are many faithful members of the church who don't see the geography as such a hinder as you apparently do.

The testimony of Christ trumps all, and we come here together by faith, not by fear or frustration in trying to figure out specific geography from a mostly spiritual record, as opposed to the historical one which we don't have.

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Brave has nothing to do with it. I trust the words of the prophets over some modern scholars. I may be in the minority for this site, but there are many faithful members of the church who don't see the geography as such a hinder as you apparently do.

The testimony of Christ trumps all, and we come here together by faith, not by fear or frustration in trying to figure out specific geography from a mostly spiritual record, as opposed to the historical one which we don't have.

But you have figured out a specific geography, just as much as the LGT have.

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Brave has nothing to do with it. I trust the words of the prophets over some modern scholars. I may be in the minority for this site, but there are many faithful members of the church who don't see the geography as such a hinder as you apparently do.

The testimony of Christ trumps all, and we come here together by faith, not by fear or frustration in trying to figure out specific geography from a mostly spiritual record, as opposed to the historical one which we don't have.

It's refreshing to hear someone state that they will follow the prophet regardless of the contrary scientific evidence. I'm sympathetic to that position since I too couldn't perform the mental gymnastics necessary to make the two mesh.

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But you have figured out a specific geography, just as much as the LGT have.

Sure, I see the words of the prophets backed up by the text, it makes sense to me.

Others here read obstacles into it, which I don't see as a problem. There are definitely different camps within the believing community.

Bottom line, putting the textual clues aside, it's like I said in the other thread... some take the prophets words with a grain of salt. Others take it with a grain of mustard seed.

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It's refreshing to hear someone state that they will follow the prophet regardless of the contrary scientific evidence. I'm sympathetic to that position since I too couldn't perform the mental gymnastics necessary to make the two mesh.

That's an interesting claim to make, seeing how one could say the entire bible and the teachings of the Savior are "contrary to scientific evidence".

For me, the mental gymnastics are trying to find which mortal with limited understanding of the ways of God should I trust more than God? It's a no brainer, even with my mental gymnastic skewered brain.

Cheers

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Sure, I see the words of the prophets backed up by the text, it makes sense to me.

Others here read obstacles into it, which I don't see as a problem. There are definitely different camps within the believing community.

Bottom line, putting the textual clues aside, it's like I said in the other thread... some take the prophets words with a grain of salt. Others take it with a grain of mustard seed.

In behalf of LGTists, may I just say: Ouch!

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Sure it was, we have fun zinging each other here.

But don't try to take sides from a faithless point of view. That's completely contrary to the whole foundation of the Gospel, to which we all belong here.

I'm leaving for the afternoon, zing away.

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How come we don't just stick with the "We don't know" angle?

It seems, every time we venture a guess, we end up with our face in the mud.

I don't get it!

I don't find that there are many who say that we know. Most that I know of are simply presenting what they consider as evidence. It may be convincing to some and not to others. The only ones it really seems to bother is the anti crowd. To the rest of us it is an interesting pasttime. We are focused on the message of the Book of Mormon and not on its geography. Focusing on the geography is like passing up a diamond for a piece of glass.

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Sure, I see the words of the prophets backed up by the text, it makes sense to me.

Are not the words of the text the words of Prophets? I ask you who knew the geography better the prophets that lived there or the Prophets today?

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Are not the words of the text the words of Prophets? I ask you who knew the geography better the prophets that lived there or the Prophets today?

Indeed. Of course there's only a problem if one thinks the words of the text and the words of the prophets don't mesh. I don't have any problems with that. The text can be interpreted a variety of ways, thus all the different camps.

Joseph had many visitations by the ancient prophets, and visions of the Nephite peoples. I will take his word, and those of his associates he spoke to about these things, above anyone at FARMS, FAIR or otherwise.

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Sevenbak 23 January 2010 - 06:14 PM

Indeed. Of course there's only a problem if one thinks the words of the text and the words of the prophets don't mesh.

WE agree here I think they mesh.

The text can be interpreted a variety of ways, thus all the different camps.
Yup
Joseph had many visitations by the ancient prophets, and visions of the Nephite peoples.
But those ancient visitors (those from the BoM) still knew much more of the geography than Joseph did. I am not sure that those visitors even taught him about the geography, I think they stuck more to spiritual matters. Geography isn't specifically mentioned as ever being discussed by these visitors so it is speculation on our part.

I will take his word, and those of his associates he spoke to about these things
Do you think everything he spoke with to his associates regarding this matter was revelatory? I do not. IMO there is revelation and then there is the afterglow of, wow, what did we just experience? And the many wonderful conversations that followed albeit those conversations all were not revelatory.
, above anyone at FARMS, FAIR or otherwise
. See that's the rub, I do not believe that FARMS, or FAIR contradict any of the revelation by any of the church leaders. I do believe as they (those like Sorenson, Peterson, Brown, and others) have specialized in areas such as anthropology, archeology, languages, history etc. And since vast breakthroughs in those fields of study, such as the translation of Mayan glyphs etc. I believe that these brothers (and sisters) perhaps were called to live in these times perhaps in a small way to strengthen our testimonies of the Book of Mormon through their gifts. They may contradict some early leaders speculation but that is not a sin. Even the leaders past and present have had different theories on geography than their peers.
D&C 88: 78

Teach ye diligently and my grace shall attend you, that you may be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel, in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient for you to understand;

My brother Sevenbak, God bless you and your family.

I enjoy our banter but never ever mean to insult or condem.

Sincerely Anijen

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