BoM Racism & Polygamy

[WalkerW]

Yes, another thread on racism in the Book of Mormon and polygamy.

I have made this because I don't want Ship's other thread to go off topic and not have his OP answered.

So, here are some things brought up. Monogamy is evil:

[Shipthebooks]

Monogamy is evil:

He also says that 2 Nephi 5 is really racist.

Thoughts.

I completely agree.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I completely agree.

You do, you think monogamy is evil?

[Shipthebooks]

You do, you think monogamy is evil?

Monogamy is so evil! It is not only bad for individuals, leading them to commit evil, but it destroys families and whole nations. I mean, the Lord's servants have always practiced polygamy except when the evil Roman robbers came in and couldn't get enough women for themselves, that's when monogamy came about (just ask a historian). People who chain themselves down to monogamy ought to be ashamed of themselves. I also think there is a physical difference in the appearance of people who have multiple wives, they always look more young and sprightly to me, whereas monogamists are all whithery and dried up looking. This monogamy that Christian churches teach has been a fruitful source of prostitution and whoredom. I mean come on, monogamy has always proved to be a curse to people, it is a lure to temptation after all. It denegrates the human family. You don't want to denegrate the human family, do you? Monogamy destroys nations! The shortest lived nations on earth have been monogamic. Plus, we all know that polygamy is the only form of marriage in heaven, and that it is essential to exaltation.

[tsubotsubo]

Personally, I don't think monogamy is evil. Sure, there are disadvantages to it, but we could also list some disadvantages to polygamy.

As long as everybody in the marriage is not being abused, consenting, happy, knows about everybody else involved, legal, etc. I think it's fine, whether it be monogamy or polygamy.

[WalkerW]

Plus, we all know that polygamy is the only form of marriage in heaven, and that it is essential to exaltation.

http://en.fairmormon..._for_exaltation

http://en.fairmormon...tation_Question

http://en.fairmormon...shable_by_death

http://www.fairlds.o..._of_Mormon.html

These have been provided thus far. But I don't know if Ship has taken the time to read them.

[Shipthebooks]

http://en.fairmormon..._for_exaltation

http://en.fairmormon...tation_Question

http://en.fairmormon...shable_by_death

http://www.fairlds.o..._of_Mormon.html

These have been provided thus far. But I don't know if Ship has taken the time to read them.

I can't click on anything from FAIR until the Q15 makes an official declaration stating that FAIR is official doctrine, then I'll consider it. I'd suggest you read Approaching Mormon Doctrine so as not to misrepresent the doctrines of the church.

[Redefined]

I can't click on anything from FAIR until the Q15 makes an official declaration stating that FAIR is official doctrine, then I'll consider it. I'd suggest you read Approaching Mormon Doctrine so as not to misrepresent the doctrines of the church.

I think that is a fair approach to FAIR. . .tee hee hee. Only because I've been told before in this forum, members say that they don't live and die by FAIR. . . so I say that it can't be taken as a valid source, if they sometimes don't even agree with it as a source.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I can't click on anything from FAIR until the Q15 makes an official declaration stating that FAIR is official doctrine, then I'll consider it. I'd suggest you read Approaching Mormon Doctrine so as not to misrepresent the doctrines of the church.

Sounds good but if you are consistant you will look at the JoD with the same eye? You do realize they are not offical. Oh snap, there goes your argument.

I am currious why every one of your quotes comes from none offical sources?

[selek]

I can't click on anything from FAIR until the Q15 makes an official declaration stating that FAIR is official doctrine, then I'll consider it. I'd suggest you read Approaching Mormon Doctrine so as not to misrepresent the doctrines of the church.

Were that the case- and it's not- you would have no argument, for none of the cherry-picked quotes you vomited up (and Walker quoted in the OP) come from doctrinal sources.

Of course, being free from the restraints of intellectual honesty as you are, the simple logic of the situation might escape you.

Still and all, you DO seem rather desperate to avoid any source which might help you achieve your stated goal of "staying in the Church".

[Vance]

This monogamy that Christian churches teach has been a fruitful source of prostitution and whoredom.

You are unaware of this?

http://www.christianpolygamy.com/

Edited to add: Oh wait that is a Christian site, BUT is it official?

[ttribe]

Monogamy is so evil! It is not only bad for individuals, leading them to commit evil, but it destroys families and whole nations. I mean, the Lord's servants have always practiced polygamy except when the evil Roman robbers came in and couldn't get enough women for themselves, that's when monogamy came about (just ask a historian). People who chain themselves down to monogamy ought to be ashamed of themselves. I also think there is a physical difference in the appearance of people who have multiple wives, they always look more young and sprightly to me, whereas monogamists are all whithery and dried up looking. This monogamy that Christian churches teach has been a fruitful source of prostitution and whoredom. I mean come on, monogamy has always proved to be a curse to people, it is a lure to temptation after all. It denegrates the human family. You don't want to denegrate the human family, do you? Monogamy destroys nations! The shortest lived nations on earth have been monogamic. Plus, we all know that polygamy is the only form of marriage in heaven, and that it is essential to exaltation.

Is this a joke?

[Shipthebooks]

Sounds good but if you are consistant you will look at the JoD with the same eye? You do realize they are not offical. Oh snap, there goes your argument.

I am currious why every one of your quotes comes from none offical sources?

You're honestly comparing statements made by Prophets, and printed by the church in JoD, with stuff on FAIRwiki? That's my whole point, you put current apologetic opinion above statements made by prophets. You will ignore stuff because it is JoD (even though the church uses it all the time for things like manuals, including the JS manual currently used for MP/RS) and give credibility to things because they are on FAIRwiki. I won't let someone try to use an appeal to authority against me when the authority they are appealing to isn't even related to the church. FAIR has no more authority to state what doctrine is than MormonThink. I was quoting original source material. You just can't fire right back with a FAIRwiki link and expect me to even care. I could just as well link you to an anti-mormon page.

If the church wants to clear up the discrepancy between past doctrines and current ones, they should speak up. I'd be happy to read anything published by the church or any statement by a prophet you have to the contrary.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Still and all, you DO seem rather desperate to avoid any source which might help you achieve your stated goal of "staying in the Church".

Normally I reserve my judgment on a poster to see more of a pattern, but I think you have a point to this poster. He can't look at FAIR because it is not offical yet he wants a reason to stay in the church. Something here is not adding up.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You're honestly comparing statements made by Prophets, and printed by the church in JoD, with stuff on FAIRwiki?

Hey, I am not the one with the problem. You are, and you want to play this game. It wont work. The JoD is not offical no matter how much you wish it were. You have no case. FAIR is set up (I feel) to deal with mostly non doctrinal issues. You can't force this issue because the fact is that the JoD is not offical.

I got news for you, you do not get to decide what is offical and what is not offical for the LDS. The church has stated that the JoD is not offical. Sorry you loose.

BTW this is the same mentality you would find at CARM. That is one line, I have seen much form them, "that FAIR is not offical so we can't use it". To bad for you. Your colors are showing.

[Shipthebooks]

Monogamy is so evil! It is not only bad for individuals, leading them to commit evil, but it destroys families and whole nations. I mean, the Lord's servants have always practiced polygamy except when the evil Roman robbers came in and couldn't get enough women for themselves, that's when monogamy came about (just ask a historian). People who chain themselves down to monogamy ought to be ashamed of themselves. I also think there is a physical difference in the appearance of people who have multiple wives, they always look more young and sprightly to me, whereas monogamists are all whithery and dried up looking. This monogamy that Christian churches teach has been a fruitful source of prostitution and whoredom. I mean come on, monogamy has always proved to be a curse to people, it is a lure to temptation after all. It denegrates the human family. You don't want to denegrate the human family, do you? Monogamy destroys nations! The shortest lived nations on earth have been monogamic. Plus, we all know that polygamy is the only form of marriage in heaven, and that it is essential to exaltation.

Is this a joke?

I wouldn't call the Lord's will a joke. The above is supported by the prophets and scriptures, so yes, monogamy is evil. Everything I said is supported by statements from modern apostles and prophets speaking in official capacity, published by the church, over the course of many years, and supported by scripture. My religion is not a joke.

[ttribe]

Were that the case- and it's not- you would have no argument, for none of the cherry-picked quotes you vomited up (and Walker quoted in the OP) come from doctrinal sources.

Of course, being free from the restraints of intellectual honesty as you are, the simple logic of the situation might escape you.

Still and all, you DO seem rather desperate to avoid any source which might help you achieve your stated goal of "staying in the Church".

Sock puppet?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I wouldn't call the Lord's will a joke. The above is supported by the prophets and scriptures, so yes, monogamy is evil. Everything I said is supported by statements from modern apostles and prophets speaking in official capacity, published by the church, over the course of many years, and supported by scripture. My religion is not a joke.

Really, CFR that the scriptures call manogamy evil.

[ttribe]

I wouldn't call the Lord's will a joke. The above is supported by the prophets and scriptures, so yes, monogamy is evil. Everything I said is supported by statements from modern apostles and prophets speaking in official capacity, published by the church, over the course of many years, and supported by scripture. My religion is not a joke.

Something isn't adding up here...at all. If you do actually believe in the scriptures and doctrines of the Church, how do you reconcile your statements with Jacob 2 and OD 1?

[Vance]

Sock puppet?

The stench of sock puppet is being noticed.

[Doctor Steuss]

I wouldn't call the Lord's will a joke. The above is supported by the prophets and scriptures, so yes, monogamy is evil. Everything I said is supported by statements from modern apostles and prophets speaking in official capacity, published by the church, over the course of many years, and supported by scripture. My religion is not a joke.

I love uber-Mormon shticks.

(Do you take requests? Can you hook up a Boyd K. Packer with a hint of Bruce R. McConkie?)

[Shipthebooks]

Hey, I am not the one with the problem. You are ant you want to play this game. It wont work. The JoD is not offical no matter how much you wish it were. You have no case. FAIR is set up (I feel) to deal with mostly non doctrinal issues. You can't force this issue because the fact is that the JoD is not offical.

I got news for you, you do not get to decide what is offical and what is not offical for the LDS. The church has stated that the JoD is not offical. Sorry you loose.

BTW this is the same mentalisty you would find at CARM. That is one line I have seen much form them, that FAIR is not offical so we can't use it. To bad for you. Your colors are showing.

I have no idea what CARM is, I'm assuming you think I'm part of some evil anti-mormon conspiracy. Frankly a little silly that you think I'm some satan controlled anti-mormon zombie.

I "loose?" Was I tied up or something? If you mean lose, this isn't a debate, I'm not trying to win anything, I'm just trying to get a feel for how you all approach this issue. But I won't act all humbled when someone refutes a direct, contextual quote from BY with a link to some website like FAIR. If relying on FAIR is how you maintain your belief, fine, but don't point to FAIR as trumping actual statements of a prophet, even if the church has abandoned the doctrine (because that's my point, they teach one thing, then leave it behind). I don't care if the church repudiates the JoD(even though they use it in their teach materials all the time) you can't get away from the simple historical fact that these doctrines were taught as official doctrine for decades. You can't get past that without engaging in 1984-esque doublethink that thinks the current teaching has always been the teaching.

[selek]

Sock puppet?

Yes and no.

Walker quoted the cherry-picked crap Ship vomited up in the "Change Your Mind Thread".

Walker is on the level.

Ship, however, is definitely a sock puppet, tho- I personally suspect it's one of Athanasius's minions scurrying after the spanking she got earlier.

[Shipthebooks]

Something isn't adding up here...at all. If you do actually believe in the scriptures and doctrines of the Church, how do you reconcile your statements with Jacob 2 and OD 1?

If you can reconcile D&C 132 with Jacob 2 then I don't see why I can't do the same thing. See how easy it is? Monogamy is evil.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I have no idea what CARM is, I'm assuming you think I'm part of some evil anti-mormon conspiracy. Frankly a little silly that you think I'm some satan controlled anti-mormon zombie.

Who said anything about being "some satan controlled anti-mormon zombie". Please don't put words into my mouth.

I "loose?" Was I tied up or something? If you mean lose, this isn't a debate, I'm not trying to win anything, I'm just trying to get a feel for how you all approach this issue. But I won't act all humbled when someone refutes a direct, contextual quote from BY with a link to some website like FAIR. If relying on FAIR is how you maintain your belief, fine, but don't point to FAIR as trumping actual statements of a prophet, even if the church has abandoned the doctrine (because that's my point, they teach one thing, then leave it behind). I don't care if the church repudiates the JoD(even though they use it in their teach materials all the time) you can't get away from the simple historical fact that these doctrines were taught as official doctrine for decades. You can't get past that without engaging in 1984-esque doublethink that thinks the current teaching has always been the teaching.

Yes, you lost the argument the second you said " FAIR is not offical", if that is the game you are going to play then you must realise that the "JoD", "The Seer", The Melenial Star", and "Deseret News" are not offical sources for doctrine. FAIR is not "trupming" what past prophets and apostles have said. Were on earth did you get that idea? CFR "the simple historical fact that these doctrines were taught as official doctrine for decades." Just because BY said something does not make it offical. You loose again.