Lehi:

[volgadon]

Carrying over from the early Christians and the temple thread.

J Green's replies to me.

Hi, Volgadon.

I always enjoy your responses. I'm not arguing for an exact Rechabite/Nephite match. There were a diversity of sects at the time (Kenites, Rechabites, Nabateans, Kenezites, etc.) that were all associated and had different splinter groups among themselves. Understanding all the diversities, especially from literature that is fairly late, is tough. However, I do think there are a lot of parallels here that are worth exploring.

volgadon, on 10 November 2009 - 11:22 PM, said:

Some sort of priest? I think that is another assumption.

I have to disagree fairly strongly. Lehi builds an altar and offers sacrifice. Nephi refers to the "ministry" of both his father and himself, builds a temple, and consecrates Jacob and Joseph as priests. Jacob ordains other priests and works in the temple. They claimed to live the Law of Moses, so someone was performing a priestly role. This is definitely a family with priesthood that is passed down through their lineage. Not Levitical, obviously, but still a priesthood with priests. Lehi was a priest.

volgadon, on 10 November 2009 - 11:22 PM, said:

Another way of reading 1N 5 is that Lehi was finally able to verify his genealogy, especially as his seems to have been a cadet branch, so to speak.

I previously acknowledged that there are several valid interpretations here. And if your reading is correct, it merely reinforces the fact that Lehi is not mainstream--that he is, in fact, separate. But in the end I would disagree with the interpretation: if Lehi has a priestly background (and I think it evident--see above) then his lineage should already have been verified.

volgadon, on 10 November 2009 - 11:22 PM, said:

My suspicion is that Lehi's ancestors moved to Judah during the reign of Asa, when the religious, political and social climate was more congenial, but that of course is an assumption on my part. They seem to have mixed with and identified themselves with Benjamin and Judah, entering into the covenant with them to serve the Lord (now there is an interesting case of historical deja vu!), so I would not be surprised if after a century or two, memories were a bit blurred as to who was who originally.

I don't think that memories would have blurred so much in a priestly family that they would have forgotten that they descended from Joseph. This seems to be stretching it pretty far, don't you think?

volgadon, on 10 November 2009 - 11:22 PM, said:

Jeremiah lived near Jerusalem too, but he wasn't a Rechabite.

Non sequitur. I don't recall making the argument that Lehi is of Rechabite descent because he lived near Jerusalem.

volgadon, on 10 November 2009 - 11:22 PM, said:

But remained a somewhat distinct group, whereas Lehi says that his descent is from Joseph. I don't see that they intermarried, only that they joined themselves to certain groups.

The Midianites/Kenites/Rechabites both intermarried and preserved a separateness. Richard Gabriel is fairly representative of the scholarly opinion:

[J Green]

Hi, Volgadon.

Let's break it down by subject:

Lehi/Nephi as Scribes

I've noticed a number of indicators over the years. Separately there is nothing conclusive, but taken all together I think that a scribal background for Lehi/Nephi seems to fit best of all. A few of the indicators as follows:

1. Product. Nephi's record speaks for itself as a product of someone with extensive literary and scriptural training.

2. Language. Nephi and Lehi are trained in Hebrew and Egyptian, which would have been the main languages of the scribes at the time. Scribal training was done within families, and it functioned just like any other clan or guild. Nephi is trained in the learning of his father, and this trade is passed down through others (to include Mosiah's sons, etc.). This would indicate that Nephi received his training from Lehi, who wrote his own record.

3. Short hand. The whole 'Reformed Egyptian' product sounds very much like the transformation in Ancient Egypt to hieratic and demotic by priestly scribes. These are scribes changing the language to make it suit their purpose. Anciently this is a scribal practice and 'reformed Egyptian' sounds typical for this milieu.

4. Similarity to Scribal Training Texts. In his BoM class, Nibley draws parallels from Nephi's story-telling to famous Egyptian biographies, like the story of Sinuhe (see Teachings of the Book of Mormon, introduction: Nephi's heritage). These biographies were exactly what the Egyptian scribes cut their teeth on. This was how they learned to write and compose literature.

5. Narrative patterns. Nephi seems to follow scribal literary devices in a number of ways. For example, his narratives are structured similar to Kings and Chronicles in the way that there are two sets of narratives that refer to each other. Charles David Isbell, among others, has noted a formula in Kings and Chronicles that crafts the history as a morality study on society and its spiritual conduct; but they frequently refer to a more secular history that had been written earlier that gives a different look at the kings and wars of the nation. (See his essay "'History' and 'Writing'.") Of course, this is exactly what Nephi does when he crafts two sets of plates for different purposes: secular and spiritual. He even seems to realize that basic devices (e.g. a genealogy list) should normally go in certain places:

And now I, Nephi, do not give the genealogy of my fathers in this part of my record; neither at any time shall I give it after upon these plates which I am writing; for it is given in the record which has been kept by my father; wherefore, I do not write it in this work. (1 Nephi 6:1)

6. Textual mastery. Nephi provides so many citations to so many textual records that it argues for a scribal training.

7. Textual commentary. Nephi provides more than citations. He spends a considerable amount of time providing commentaries (or pesherim, if you will) on everything he draws on. From ancient Israel to Qumran, this is the trademark of a scribe.

8. Textual/Narrative structure. A number of LDS scholars have noticed that Nephi seems to puposefully construct his narrative to mimic that of the Exodus narrative. There are other patterns at work as well. This is the hallmark of a professionally-trained scribe who has constructed and deconstructed these texts as part of long training.

9. Literacy. This can get into minimalist-maximalist territory pretty quickly. However, even within this m-m debate, literacy rates for a highly literate society like Ancient Egypt range from 1% to 10%. And the term literacy used in these circles usually excludes complex writings. Merchants that came from the upper ranges of society were literate in the sense that they could usually read contracts in several languages, sign their names. They were functional but not really literary in any sense. To have a work like Nephi's demonstrates a quality of literary construction, textual knowledge, and high-level literacy in several languages that really begs for a scribal background.

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head.

Comments?

[notHagoth7]

Let's break it down by subject:

Lehi/Nephi as Scribes

I've noticed a number of indicators over the years. Separately there is nothing conclusive, but taken all together I think that a scribal background for Lehi/Nephi seems to fit best of all. A few of the indicators as follows:

...Comments?

Very good stuff.

[mfbukowski]

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head.

Comments?

Is that the best you can do? Just nine convincing points?

Bump!

Really cool thread!

I am beginning to think that Occam's razor is a great ally here in the scribal-priesthood-metalworking background of Nephi.

He would need all those things, and I can't see anywhere else he could have found them all together in one place. Also, he would have had to learn it all at a relatively young age, almost as if he was trained in all three areas, none of which would one just "pick up" randomly by dumb luck. But learning all three at an early age seems to speak directly to the idea that he was specifically trained to do pretty much exactly what he did.

[Zakuska]

2. Language. Nephi and Lehi are trained in Hebrew and Egyptian, which would have been the main languages of the scribes at the time. Scribal training was done within families, and it functioned just like any other clan or guild. Nephi is trained in the learning of his father, and this trade is passed down through others (to include Mosiah's sons, etc.). This would indicate that Nephi received his training from Lehi, who wrote his own record.

Joseph in Egypt comes to mind. The "scribe" of the family of whom all his brothers were jealous and mad that he turned pages rather than working in the feilds with the sheep.

[J Green]

Joseph in Egypt comes to mind. The "scribe" of the family of whom all his brothers were jealous and mad that he turned pages rather than working in the feilds with the sheep.

Nice observation, Zak.

[J Green]

Next Subject:

Lehi/Nephi as Metalworkers

The data we have concerns Nephi, not Lehi. However, trades in the Ancient Near East were passed from father to son in a guild/clan context. It would be unusual to know Nephi

[Zakuska]

I once heard it claimed by an Anti-Mormon that Nephi's use of the bellows was anachronistic.

"Ancient bellows consist of a leather bag with a wooden frame with a long mouth piece of reed tipped with metal"

http://www.bible-his...catname=Bellows

[mfbukowski]

I once heard it claimed by an Anti-Mormon that Nephi's use of the bellows was anachronistic.

Absurd. If you have ever made a fire without matches and fire-starter you know that you have to blow on the tinder. And because you need a third hand as you cup the smoldering tinder, and try to add to it, all the while keeping the lips busy as well, you immediately think: "Gee, wouldn't it be nice if I had someone/something to blow for me?"

Bellows are as old as human cheeks and fire making.

I did smite two stones together that I might make fire. (1 Ne 17:11)

And have you ever knocked two rocks together to make a fire? Good luck.

Of course it can be done, but one must KNOW and find the right two rocks. In other words, one must know about geology, or ore and metals which are IN the rocks.

[mfbukowski]

Next Subject:

Lehi/Nephi as Metalworkers

The data we have concerns Nephi, not Lehi. However, trades in the Ancient Near East were passed from father to son in a guild/clan context. It would be unusual to know Nephi

[J Green]

So that could include the metalworking AND the Priesthood, and scribal practice.

A few lines from the Encylopaedia Judaica about Kenite priestly metalworkers:

Nonetheless, the important role of the Kenites in early Israelite worship has been emphasized by the discovery of an Israelite sanctuary at Arad. This explains the note of Judges 1:16 about the Kenite family related to Moses (according to the Septuagint descendants, this venerated family served as priests in the sanctuary). They entered the region from the

[Glenn101]

A few lines from the Encylopaedia Judaica about Kenite priestly metalworkers:

However Lehi's lineage was through the tribe of Manassah, not Levi and he therefore was not eligible for the Levirate priesthood.

It is my understanding that the prophets such as Elijah, Elisha, Samual, Nathan held the Melchizadek priesthood. Although the priesthood had been taken from the Israelites in general and the lesser priesthood endowed upon the Levites in particular, the Melchizadek priesthood was not necessarily taken from the earth entirely.

Glenn

[J Green]

Hi, Glenn.

Since this thread is a carryover from another one, the background probably isn't very clear. We aren't discussing Lehi or Kenites in the context of the Levitical priesthood. The thought process goes something like this:

Lehi and Nephi exhibit behavior that is consistent with trained priests (of whatever lineage), trained scribes, and trained metalworkers. Since most ancient Israelites only worked in one of these professions (if any) at a time, how do we reconcile all three professions so closely tied to one family? One answer could lie in Lehi being descended from Kenite/Rechabites who married into the tribe of Manassah. (Recall that in the invasion of Canaan, Gad and Manassah took their lands together, along with Kenites.) The Kenites/Rechabites were metalworking craftsmen and scribes who intermarried with various tribes of the House of Israel. Jeremiah tells the Rechabites in the temple that they will always have someone to stand/serve the Lord, which is a priestly phrase, meaning that there were Rechabite priests at that time (whatever lineage). We see Rechabites listed among certain priesthood holders when they return from the exile as well. In later Rabbinic and Patristic literature we see further intermarrying between the Rechabites and the families of the High Priests. It's possible that Lehi has only partial descent from the House of Israel, which is why he is eager to discover his Israelite lineage when he obtains the Brass Plates. It could be that he holds the Melchizedek priesthood through his Kenite ancestry (like Jethro, father-in-law of Moses; see D&C 84).

As you can guess, it's all rather speculative. But it's fun nonetheless.

Cheers!

[bjw]

It could be that he holds the Melchizedek priesthood through his Kenite ancestry (like Jethro, father-in-law of Moses; see D&C 84).

As you can guess, it's all rather speculative. But it's fun nonetheless.

Cheers!

Could Kenites hold priesthood?

I've heard the Kenites used a lot by conspiracy theorists now-in-days to justify the belief in the "serpent seed" doctrine. In fact, ex-mormon A. True Ott (Alma Ott) claims that the leadership families of the LDS church are the decendants of the Kenites in the Bible. I think Arnold Murray from TSC believes a variation of this as well. If Kenites were of Canaan could they hold priesthood, or am I misunderstanding something?

This topic made me think of a good point from the paper I posted a link to in my topic from a few nights ago:

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/46229-cains-decendants-and-war-of-water-and-fire-spirits/page__p__1208750699entry1208750699

Whether you agree with the paper or not, or the historicity of some of the stories, or not, this may be something to consider. The Lord needed a temple in the new world. He had a priesthood class that could administer the ordinances. The opposing class is able to do metal working and construction, skills necessary to build a temple. Therefore, it is necessary for the two classes to come together for the work to be accomplished. It was the same case with Solomon's temple in the Old Testament when Hiram King of Tyre and Hiram Abiff were brought in to do work on the temple. If you see the section called "The Molten Sea" in the paper it mentions how the fire and water groups come together to cause the molten to form metal. (The font on the back of 12 oxen.) While we know this is just an allegory and you can't take it literally, I think it pertains to what we are discussing here. Somehow Lehi's group consisted of a "coming together" of these two classes, for the sake of the work being accomplished.

[notHagoth7]

...claims that the leadership families of the LDS church are the decendants of the Kenites in the Bible. I think Arnold Murray from TSC believes a variation of this as well.

Interesting. What's the basis for their assertion?

[J Green]

I haven't heard any of the modern conspiracy theories either.

The record on Kenites is mixed. Most understand the root word here to be qyn, a smith. (Arabic has a similar cognate--qayna--for tinsmith or craftsman.) Since this is the same root at work in the name Cain, some have postulated that the Kenites are descendants of Cain. (And we do see Tubal-Cain working metal.) However, most scholars see the fact that Jethro/Hobab (Moses' father-in-law) is called both a Kenite (Judges 1:16) and a Midianite (Num 10:29) as indicative that Kenites are a subclan of the Midiantes, who are descendants of Abraham through his concubine Keturah (see Gen 25:1-6). In Latter-day Saint doctrine, Jethro holds the Melchizedek Priesthood through his fathers all the way back to Esaias at the time of Abraham (see Section 84:6-13). If Jethro can hold the priesthood as a Kenite, and the Kenites/Midianites are descended from Abraham, it seems unlikely that there was any prescription on Kenites holding the priesthood.

Although a minority view, H. H. Rowley has speculated that Moses' mother, Jochebed, was a Kenite (see his From Moses to Qumran [California: Association Press, 1963] 56). Many see her name as theophoric (something like "YHWH is powerful"), which sparks Rowley's famous "Kenite Theory" that the Kenites had preserved the true worship of Jehovah and transmitted it back to Israel via Jethro. He argues that this makes sense in the light of Moses finding sanctuary among Kenites/Midiantes--because they are his mother's relatives. He sees Jochebed as a name that combines Kenite and Israelite/Levite naming conventions and compares it to Egyptian-Hebrew name combinations among the temple population of Elephantine in the 6th century bce. (See also Bezalel Porten's The Elephantine papyri in English [Leiden: Brill, 1996] 85: "Egyptian names would have crept into the Jewish onomasticon through intermarriage, which took place at both ends of the social scale"). This is the same time and place we get the only attestation of Sariah (Lehi's wife) as female name (see Chadwick's study "Sariah in the Elephantine Papyri").

[bjw]

Interesting. What's the basis for their assertion?

It must be because the root word means "smith," as J Green pointed out. This would probably explain A True Ott's version of the theory anyway.

[J Green]

Third subject in the trilogy of training/profession:

Lehi/Nephi as Priests

This one seems fairly obvious, but I'll point out a few of the indicators.

1. Priestly/Prophetic Calling. Lehi is called of God and is given several visions, including a throne theophany (1 Nephi) that has been compared to prophetic investiture into the Divine Council. He testifies to Jerusalem as a prophet, just like Jeremiah and the other prophets (1 Nephi 1). Nephi has his own prophetic visions where he sees the Son of God (as do Jacob and Joseph), foretells the future, and frequently refers to his and his father's "prophesying" (e.g. 1 Ne 7:1; 2 Ne 31:1).

2. Priestly Ritual. The Nephites observe the Law of Moses (2 Ne 5:10). Lehi builds an altar and offers sacrifice (1 Ne 2:7). Lehi gives his sons patriarchal blessings and extends priesthood covenants to them (see 2 Nephi 1-4). Nephi builds a temple (2 Ne 5), where Jacob teaches (cf. Jac 1-3). Nephi consecrates Jacob and Joseph as priests (2 Ne 5:26). Nephi talks about ordinances like baptism (2 Ne 31). Both sermons of Jacob have overtones associated with the ritual of the Day of Atonement, just like we can see some of the elements of Tabernacles in King Benjamin's sermon.

3. Priestly Terminology. Much of the language used by Lehi and his sons has a priestly nuance. They use words like 'consecrate,' and 'ministry.' The priestly Leviticus includes a segment know as the holiness code because of it's frequent use of the word 'holy' and its emphasis on becoming holy. The same root underlies the word 'saint' which is at the heart of the Tree of Life terminology used by Lehi and Nephi: one becomes holy, becomes a saint, as they partake of the fruit from the tree. The most concentrated use of the word holy in the BoM is in 2 Nephi 9, where Jacob creates his own holiness code, frequently using priestly terms for God, such as "The Holy One of Israel."

4. Priestly Paradigms. A promised land, a righteous seed. A curse that creates separation for purposes of non-integration of families (very priestly). Land covenants tied to righteousness. A crossing of the ocean by the power of God that is likened to the Exodus. Etc. The whole narrative of Nephi is purposely structured in a priestly manner.

Conclusion

Lehi holds some form of priesthood that is passed down among his righteous posterity. They understand priestly rituals, including temple rituals. It's possible that Leh's prophetic calling is also the beginning of his priesthood service (perhaps a link to Jeremiah) but this is rather unlikely as the priesthood would normally have been given to him earlier in his life. Thus, odds are that the prophetic calling at the beginning of the BoM is not the beginning of Lehi's priesthood. And the kinds of priestly activity found in the BoM argue for a long priestly background and training. So if Lehi is already a priest, it begs the question of lineage and we're back to figuring out Lehi's reaction to confirming his ancestry from the Brass Plates. If Lehi holds the Melchizedek priesthood, where does it come from and who gave it to him? It seems similar to the patriarchal form of the priesthood as found in Genesis.

[volgadon]

Wow, I've been busy and now there is so much to reply to. I'll start responding.

[J Green]

Wow, I've been busy and now there is so much to reply to. I'll start responding.

No worries, Volgadon. As they say in Egypt, Maaleesh!

Regards

[volgadon]

I always enjoy your responses.

And I yours. Always interesting and thought out.

I'm not arguing for an exact Rechabite/Nephite match. There were a diversity of sects at the time (Kenites, Rechabites, Nabateans, Kenezites, etc.) that were all associated and had different splinter groups among themselves. Understanding all the diversities, especially from literature that is fairly late, is tough. However, I do think there are a lot of parallels here that are worth exploring.

To be pedantic, clans rather than sects. I'm not sure the Nabateans are really related either, but that is another matter entirely.

I have to disagree fairly strongly. Lehi builds an altar and offers sacrifice. Nephi refers to the "ministry" of both his father and himself, builds a temple, and consecrates Jacob and Joseph as priests. Jacob ordains other priests and works in the temple. They claimed to live the Law of Moses, so someone was performing a priestly role. This is definitely a family with priesthood that is passed down through their lineage. Not Levitical, obviously, but still a priesthood with priests. Lehi was a priest.

Perhaps I should be a little clearer. I'm not arguing that Lehi did not become a priest, but that he wasn't one before his vision and calling.

Essentially, I'm calling for a closer examination of the chronological aspect of the biographical strand of Lehi and nephi's lives.

I previously acknowledged that there are several valid interpretations here. And if your reading is correct, it merely reinforces the fact that Lehi is not mainstream--that he is, in fact, separate. But in the end I would disagree with the interpretation: if Lehi has a priestly background (and I think it evident--see above) then his lineage should already have been verified.

I know you acknowledged that, I was showing my reading, that is all.

What isn't mainstream about cadet branches?

The priestly assumption is actually a two-edged sword- it cuts both ways.

I don't think that memories would have blurred so much in a priestly family that they would have forgotten that they descended from Joseph. This seems to be stretching it pretty far, don't you think?

Which is why it can be seen as an argument against his having been a priest.

Non sequitur. I don't recall making the argument that Lehi is of Rechabite descent because he lived near Jerusalem.

Then I must have misunderstood your point and your reference to Lehi living near Jerusalem.

The Midianites/Kenites/Rechabites both intermarried and preserved a separateness. Richard Gabriel is fairly representative of the scholarly opinion:

[volgadon]

No worries, Volgadon. As they say in Egypt, Maaleesh!

Regards

Or shwaye shwaye in Palestine.

[mfbukowski]

Perhaps I should be a little clearer. I'm not arguing that Lehi did not become a priest, but that he wasn't one before his vision and calling.

It would seem from a classic LDS pov that the priesthood would come before a prophetic calling. And if he was from a priesthood holding clan, his receiving the priesthood would probably happen at a relatively early age, wouldn't it?

[Zakuska]

PLYGKID over on CARM erroniously brought up that since Jacobs son Joseph who was sold into Egypt married an Egyptiain woman (Asenath) that according to the Book of Abraham Lehi couldn't hold the preisthood. Since Asenath would have Egyptian blood and Priesthood was not aloud in that blood line. However when one studies the History Behind Osenas lineage... and realizes that she actually was the Daughter of Dinah, Leah's Daughter and was adoped by Potipher the Priest of On. So Joseph married his Neice and Lehi's lineage and claim to priesthood is left intact.

[J Green]

Hi, Volgadon.

Appreciate the response. A few thoughts of my own:

Perhaps I should be a little clearer. I'm not arguing that Lehi did not become a priest, but that he wasn't one before his vision and calling.

Essentially, I'm calling for a closer examination of the chronological aspect of the biographical strand of Lehi and nephi's lives.

Would you agree that the scenario you're proposing would be unusual in ancient Israel? Was Isaiah already a priest at the time of his vision in the Holy of Holies (Isa 6)? Was Ezekiel already a priest at the time of his vision? What about Jeremiah at the time he is called to prophesy against the rulers of Jerusalem? Why is Lehi different? Referencing my list of priestly indicators, I would argue that there had to be training prior to his prophetic calling. He seems to be trained in ritual, terminology, etc. This priestly history can't start with 1 Nephi 1. From whom does Nephi receive the Mel priesthood? Lehi? From whom does Jacob receive the priesthood? (See 2 Ne 5.) Why would Lehi's situation be any different? Why not his own father?

The priestly assumption is actually a two-edged sword- it cuts both ways.

Agreed.

I would love to CFR the author on this statement.