The Israelite Temple and the Early Christians

[volgadon]

Or it serves to show how and why he is Lehi's true son unlike his brothers who don't keep his father's commands AND Nephi shows respect and honour to his father by that title AND shows what respect is due a father.

My point is that there is nothing uniquely Rechabite about this.

[J Green]

That's interesting. Have you written these links up?

Hi, David.

I've always planned to. I have some notes on the subject, but I've never really consolidated them. Scribal patterns, metal-working abilities, and priestly functions were always clan- or guild-like family trades. But it's odd that we see elements of all three in one family or person like Nephi/Lehi. A Rechabite origin would be one of the few documented explanations for a group that had all three in common. I'm not sure it fits entirely, but it may be something similar that we see at work here with Nephi's family.

I like your train of thought on abi. I truly believe there is something like this at work in Nephi's writings.

Regards

[David Bokovoy]

Or it serves to show how and why he is Lehi's true son unlike his brothers who don't keep his father's commands AND Nephi shows respect and honour to his father by that title AND shows what respect is due a father.

My point is that there is nothing uniquely Rechabite about this.

I don't believe that Nephi's emphasis upon his father is either or. I believe that you're absolutely correct to interpret the repetition as a sign that Nephi is Lehi's true son, and an heir to his father's prophetic status.

[David Bokovoy]

Hi, David.

I've always planned to. I have some notes on the subject, but I've never really consolidated them. Scribal patterns, metal-working abilities, and priestly functions were always clan- or guild-like family trades. But it's odd that we see elements of all three in one family or person like Nephi/Lehi. A Rechabite origin would be one of the few documented explanations for a group that had all three in common. I'm not sure it fits entirely, but it may be something similar that we see at work here with Nephi's family.

I like your train of thought on abi. I truly believe there is something like this at work in Nephi's writings.

Regards

I love this insight and it makes perfect sense. I've always wondered how/why Nephi could possess such strong scribal skills and an ability to work with metal in a highly illiterate society. Nephi was clearly extremely well-educated for the time, which has always made me wonder how in the world he could have ever picked up an additional trade beyond that of scribe. I'm very interested in your observation. Keep us posted if you ever write up your notes.

best,

--DB

[mfbukowski]

I love this insight and it makes perfect sense. I've always wondered how/why Nephi could possess such strong scribal skills and an ability to work with metal in a highly illiterate society. Nephi was clearly extremely well-educated for the time, which has always made me wonder how in the world he could have ever picked up an additional trade beyond that of scribe. I'm very interested in your observation. Keep us posted if you ever write up your notes.

best,

--DB

One of the questions I have had about the Book of Mormon is where Lehi's priesthood came from. This would explain it, I think. He would have the same Melchizadek priesthood Jethro had.

Right? Another piece of the puzzle?

Edit:

Eisenman makes a big deal of the Rechabite origins of James and John, and the parallels he draws have always made me wonder about Lehi's family. Nephi's focus on 'keeping the commandments of my father' (see the Rechabites in Jer 35), scribal abilities, metal-working knowledge, and priestly functions outside a Zadokite lineage all point to something that sounds very Rechabite-ish. The Rechabites were metal workers and scribes who had intermarried with the Israelites. They were the old Kennites like Jethro, who had the Mel. priesthood (D&C 84 territory).

There it is right there. Sorry- I need to read more carefully.

To me personally, this is a major piece of putting it all together. Thanks guys, this is amazing, another testimony of how the gospel puts all those little fragmented details together.

Fascinating stuff.

[volgadon]

How do we rconcile Rechabite origin with descent from Manasseh?

[J Green]

How do we rconcile Rechabite origin with descent from Manasseh?

I realize you can interpret 1 Ne 5:14 several ways, but if you read it in the sense that Lehi is only then discovering the specifics of his Israelite ancestry, one wonders why. He lived near Jerusalem, was some sort of priest, yet didn't know his lineage? This seems odd, even if his priesthood is "without father, without mother, without descent" (see Heb 7:3).

As for the Rechabites, we know that the Kenites intermarried with various Israelite tribes during stages. They are mentioned occasionally in different contexts:

1 Chronicles 2:55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.

We don't have the complete northern record, but presumably the Kenites would have married into northern tribes as well. By the time we reach Rabbinic literature, Eusebius quoting Hegessipus, etc., there seems to be additional inter-marrying between sons and daughters of Rechabites and sons and daughters of the High Priests. The Mandeans of southern Iraq called John the Baptist as-Sabi ibn Yusufus (the Baptizer, son of Joseph; see Eisenman, The New Testament Code [London: Watkins Publishing, 2006] p. 101). The Savior himself (a cousin of John's) is also referred to as a "son of Joseph" (see John 1:45; 6:42). Then we get to the Qumran use of "Ephraim," which is both ubiquitous and complex.

Short answer: I don't know, but I don't think we've explored this enough to really know for sure.

[J Green]

I love this insight and it makes perfect sense. I've always wondered how/why Nephi could possess such strong scribal skills and an ability to work with metal in a highly illiterate society. Nephi was clearly extremely well-educated for the time, which has always made me wonder how in the world he could have ever picked up an additional trade beyond that of scribe. I'm very interested in your observation. Keep us posted if you ever write up your notes.

best,

--DB

Agreed. You read the literature on scribes, and you realize that the literacy of even the most advanced and "literate" societies approached 5%. Maybe. Even in Ancient Egypt, there are scribes that could basically just read and sign their name. To have someone compose what we have in the small plates to me advances the debate beyond a Lehi-as-Merchant theory. We have to look at some kind of scribal background. And where do scribes, metal-workers and priests combine? In the temple. All the metal work--especially the gold that covered everything in the temple--was beaten down by priestly (probably Kenite) metal-workers into thin sheets of gold, then used as a covering for the temple objects. The name of Yahweh on the High Priests forehead was a thin sheet of gold with writing engraved on it. Notice how Nephi seems to know metalworking yet uses Laban's sword as a template to craft other weapons (as if he hasn't done swords before), but he doesn't mention using a model when he beats gold into thin sheets to create two sets of plates to engrave on them. It could all simply go back to the temple.

Regards

[J Green]

To me personally, this is a major piece of putting it all together. Thanks guys, this is amazing, another testimony of how the gospel puts all those little fragmented details together.

Fascinating stuff.

I'm not convinced it's the final answer, but I do think it deserves some major poking around. It certainly ties some things together, but as Volgadon keeps pointing out, there's really not enough in the record to draw definitive conclusions.

Regards

[mfbukowski]

I'm not convinced it's the final answer, but I do think it deserves some major poking around. It certainly ties some things together, but as Volgadon keeps pointing out, there's really not enough in the record to draw definitive conclusions.

Regards

Well we all have patriarchal blessings too, don't we? With possible differences in "descent" between brothers and sisters?

To me it goes without saying that none of this is going to totally come together considering we are dealing with information that is thousands of years old and "translated" by revelation. (In the case of Lehi)

What is amazing to me, frankly, is that any of these nuances make any sense at all. But perhaps I have a different view of the nature of myth, history and revelation than most.

[volgadon]

I realize you can interpret 1 Ne 5:14 several ways, but if you read it in the sense that Lehi is only then discovering the specifics of his Israelite ancestry, one wonders why. He lived near Jerusalem, was some sort of priest, yet didn't know his lineage? This seems odd, even if his priesthood is "without father, without mother, without descent" (see Heb 7:3).

Some sort of priest? I think that is another assumption.

Another way of reading 1N 5 is that Lehi was finally able to verify his genealogy, especially as his seems to have been a cadet branch, so to speak.

My suspicion is that Lehi's ancestors moved to Judah during the reign of Asa, when the religious, political and social climate was more congenial, but that of course is an assumption on my part. They seem to have mixed with and identified themselves with Benjamin and Judah, entering into the covenant with them to serve the Lord (now there is an interesting case of historical deja vu!), so I would not be surprised if after a century or two, memories were a bit blurred as to who was who originally.

Jeremiah lived near Jerusalem too, but he wasn't a Rechabite.

As for the Rechabites, we know that the Kenites intermarried with various Israelite tribes during stages. They are mentioned occasionally in different contexts:

1 Chronicles 2:55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.

But remained a somewhat distinct group, whereas Lehi says that his descent is from Joseph. I don't see that they intermarried, only that they joined themselves to certain groups.

Also, not all Rechabites were scribes. It appears to me that the aforementioned families had split from the Rechabites (or vice-versa).

We don't have the complete northern record, but presumably the Kenites would have married into northern tribes as well. By the time we reach Rabbinic literature, Eusebius quoting Hegessipus, etc., there seems to be additional inter-marrying between sons and daughters of Rechabites and sons and daughters of the High Priests. The Mandeans of southern Iraq called John the Baptist as-Sabi ibn Yusufus (the Baptizer, son of Joseph; see Eisenman, The New Testament Code [London: Watkins Publishing, 2006] p. 101). The Savior himself (a cousin of John's) is also referred to as a "son of Joseph" (see John 1:45; 6:42). Then we get to the Qumran use of "Ephraim," which is both ubiquitous and complex.

The Kenites of the OT don't seem to have intermarried with other tribes. In general, during that time the custom was to marry only within one's tribal framework, and the closer related the branches, the better. In rabbinic times, the high priestly families were very reluctant to marry those with no wealth or no illustrious family history.

Short answer: I don't know, but I don't think we've explored this enough to really know for sure.

I don't know either, but I don't think Nephi gives us enough to work with. Any number of guesses is possible.

That being said, it does seem like Lehi and Nephi were impressed by the Rechabites. And my father dwelt in a tent could be accentuating Lehi's piety.

There are some issues though which raise questions.

The focus of the Rechabites was on the commandments of their father, not their direct, biological father, but their most prominent and respected leader, who had passed away many, many years before.

Why is Jonadab the son of Rechab never mentioned in the BoM, one would think, given the prominence of his instructions among the Rechabites, that he would be mentioned, at least once.

Also, Lehi appears to have dwelt in a house, perhaps in Jerusalem, perhaps outside it, whereas the Rechabites were specifically instructed to dwell in tents and build no house nor work any land. None of this though is an insurmountable obstacle if you wish to believe in the Rechabite theory.

Agreed. You read the literature on scribes, and you realize that the literacy of even the most advanced and "literate" societies approached 5%. Maybe. Even in Ancient Egypt, there are scribes that could basically just read and sign their name.

Some of those in ancient Israel and Judah weren't that shabby.

To have someone compose what we have in the small plates to me advances the debate beyond a Lehi-as-Merchant theory. We have to look at some kind of scribal background.

I dunno, when you look at the examples of Egyptian-Hebrew texts from the Negev and what they were used for, Lehi-as-Merchant makes sense.

I don't think the ability to compose literature (I use the term broadly) was limited to the scribes. The Middle-Eastern peoples had (and still have) a genius for oral composition, some of it highly ornate and complex.

Off-hand, I can think of several bilical individuals who werent scribes yet produced some striking stuuff. I won't use Moses, because who knows, maybe that was part of his education in the Egyptian court, which does bring up the interesting issue of what script he used, but that is another discussion entirely.

Deborah, Jotham, Samson, Hana, David, Elijah, Amos and Jeremiah. The list is far from comprehensive.

And where do scribes, metal-workers and priests combine? In the temple. All the metal work--especially the gold that covered everything in the temple--was beaten down by priestly (probably Kenite) metal-workers into thin sheets of gold, then used as a covering for the temple objects.

That bit about the Kenites is extremely speculative. Anyway, besides Jethro, we really don't see the Kenites in a priestly context, now do we?

The name of Yahweh on the High Priests forehead was a thin sheet of gold with writing engraved on it.

Naturally. Imagine carrying it otherwise!!

Notice how Nephi seems to know metalworking yet uses Laban's sword as a template to craft other weapons (as if he hasn't done swords before), but he doesn't mention using a model when he beats gold into thin sheets to create two sets of plates to engrave on them.

Something as tricky as swords deifnitely requires a template or mould. I personally am not sure Nephi was a master smith by then.

A template really isn't needed in order to hammer flat sheets of metal.

One wonders why he never attempted scrolls, such as the ones from the Hinom area in Jerusalem.

never mind, it is a silly question, plates are easier for a large amount of text.

It could all simply go back to the temple.

Or to the plates of brass.

[mfbukowski]

Some sort of priest? I think that is another assumption.

Well I can't pretend to be able to keep up my end of the conversation with you guys from my background in the OT, but doctrinally, Lehi must have had the priesthood but certainly, he wasn't a Levite. And the priesthood got over to the Americas somehow, and it was also certainly not the Levitical priesthood.

It has been my understanding that the priesthood held by Nephi and others in the BOM was the Melchizedek Priesthood officiating in certain Aaronic Priesthood ordinances.

That bit about the Kenites is extremely speculative. Anyway, besides Jethro, we really don't see the Kenites in a priestly context, now do we?

But that is a very important "besides". Where else does the Melchizedek Priesthood appear (after Abraham and Melchizedek himself)in the entire OT, except in what we know of Jethro?

I think it is reasonable to conclude doctrinally that since Lehi apparently had it, the priesthood lineage quite probably did come through Jethro somehow.

Am I wrong?

[Zakuska]

Jeremiah lived near Jerusalem too, but he wasn't a Rechabite.

True, but he didn't write on Metal either.

[volgadon]

But that is a very important "besides". Where else does the Melchizedek Priesthood appear (after Abraham and Melchizedek himself)in the entire OT, except in what we know of Jethro?

Elijah?

[volgadon]

True, but he didn't write on Metal either.

Nor did the Rechabites, as far as is known.

[Zakuska]

I thought I read earlier on the thread that they had. Let me go back and check.

[mfbukowski]

Elijah?

OK you're right. But still that priesthood lineage came through Jethro. But I suppose it could have come to Lehi somehow through Elijah also....

[volgadon]

Or through Jeremiah.

[mfbukowski]

Certainly possible.

[J Green]

Hi, Volgadon.

I always enjoy your responses. I'm not arguing for an exact Rechabite/Nephite match. There were a diversity of sects at the time (Kenites, Rechabites, Nabateans, Kenezites, etc.) that were all associated and had different splinter groups among themselves. Understanding all the diversities, especially from literature that is fairly late, is tough. However, I do think there are a lot of parallels here that are worth exploring.

Some sort of priest? I think that is another assumption.

I have to disagree fairly strongly. Lehi builds an altar and offers sacrifice. Nephi refers to the "ministry" of both his father and himself, builds a temple, and consecrates Jacob and Joseph as priests. Jacob ordains other priests and works in the temple. They claimed to live the Law of Moses, so someone was performing a priestly role. This is definitely a family with priesthood that is passed down through their lineage. Not Levitical, obviously, but still a priesthood with priests. Lehi was a priest.

Another way of reading 1N 5 is that Lehi was finally able to verify his genealogy, especially as his seems to have been a cadet branch, so to speak.

I previously acknowledged that there are several valid interpretations here. And if your reading is correct, it merely reinforces the fact that Lehi is not mainstream--that he is, in fact, separate. But in the end I would disagree with the interpretation: if Lehi has a priestly background (and I think it evident--see above) then his lineage should already have been verified.

My suspicion is that Lehi's ancestors moved to Judah during the reign of Asa, when the religious, political and social climate was more congenial, but that of course is an assumption on my part. They seem to have mixed with and identified themselves with Benjamin and Judah, entering into the covenant with them to serve the Lord (now there is an interesting case of historical deja vu!), so I would not be surprised if after a century or two, memories were a bit blurred as to who was who originally.

I don't think that memories would have blurred so much in a priestly family that they would have forgotten that they descended from Joseph. This seems to be stretching it pretty far, don't you think?

Jeremiah lived near Jerusalem too, but he wasn't a Rechabite.

Non sequitur. I don't recall making the argument that Lehi is of Rechabite descent because he lived near Jerusalem.

But remained a somewhat distinct group, whereas Lehi says that his descent is from Joseph. I don't see that they intermarried, only that they joined themselves to certain groups.

The Midianites/Kenites/Rechabites both intermarried and preserved a separateness. Richard Gabriel is fairly representative of the scholarly opinion:

[*]Agricultural peoples, by contrast, usually treated smiths much more kindly, often settling them as permanent members of the community and encouraging intermarriage. Both Forbes and Gottwald agree that the relationship between the Sinai Kenites and the Israelites was particularly close and frendly, and

[mfbukowski]

Telling arguments! Wow what a tennis match! A comment from the peanut gallery:

I suppose as a prophet, there are any number of possible sources for Lehi's Melchizadek Priesthood, including Jeremiah, but there is a certain economy to the scribal-metalworker-priesthood connection. Certainly all three would have been essential to Nephi's background.

And it also makes sense that the complexity of steel sword technology could be lost over time, whereas the relative simplicity of writing on hammered softer metals would survive. If hammered copper exists, it is almost no stretch at all to brass or gold.

If you start another thread, would you link it here? I am super busy right now and might not have a chance to search it out.

Thanks guys!

[J Green]

If hammered copper exists, it is almost no stretch at all to brass or gold.

Sort of like the priestly/scribal Copper Scroll at Qumran? I like how Eisenman calls the Rechabites "proto-Essenes" (see James the Brother of Jesus, p. 229

or The New Testament Code, p. 173).

If you start another thread, would you link it here? I am super busy right now and might not have a chance to search it out.

Volgadon started another thread here.

Now I have to go re-string my tennis racquet.

Cheers.

[volgadon]

Sort of like the priestly/scribal Copper Scroll at Qumran? I like how Eisenman calls the Rechabites "proto-Essenes" (see James the Brother of Jesus, p. 229

or The New Testament Code, p. 173).

Proto-Essenes only really in living a life of religious separatism. The differences are as great as the similarities.

Anyway, something more relevant is the silver scrolls found at Katef Hinnom in Jerusalem. They are from 600 BC!!