Jump to content

The Israelite Temple and the Early Christians


livy111us

Recommended Posts

Matthew Browns lecture from last years FAIRs conference has just been posted on the FAIR website. For those of you who were there, he made some amazing comparisons between early Christianity/Israelite Rituals, particularly using the book of Revelations. It was an amazing lecture and should answer many questions regarding the authenticity of the endowment.

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2008_The_Israelite_Temple_and_the_Early_Christians.html

In one comparison, Matthew Brown discusses rites from Greek Orthodox Monks.

Finally, let me read you a short summary of the initiation rites of Greek Orthodox monks from a book published by Yale University Press. See if you detect any connection between what is said here and the information that has already been presented.

"Stage 1: The initiate is brought into the church building and given "a new name" and is invested with a tunic and a headdress.

Stage 2: The service is symbolic of three things: (#1) a second baptism or washing, (#2) the return of the prodigal son, and (#3) marriage. The initiate goes to the Royal Doors and altar [i.e., the iconostasis/veil] where the abbot (who represents the father from the prodigal son parable) meets him. There is an exchange of questions and answers between them which begins with the abbot inquiring why the initiate has come there and the initiate responds by announcing his intent. The questions and answers that follow incorporate the taking of "formal vows" of obedience, chastity, and living a monastic lifestyle. The abbot reminds the initiate that "invisible angels are present recording [his] vow." The initiate is then invested with ecclesiastical clothing, a girdle, and a headdress. At the end of the ceremony the initiate and the initiator embrace one another.

Stage 3: The initiate is invested with the Great Schema or full religious dress which includes "an elaborately embroidered apron." This apron includes a symbol of Adam and also the acronymn for Paradise. The clothing given to the initiate in this stage of his progression is never to be taken off

Link to comment

Matthew Browns lecture from last years FAIRs conference has just been posted on the FAIR website....

You know what?

If you really want to get serious about this topic, you should look into

the tradition of James the Just (brother of Jesus) being the High priest

in the Jerusalem Temple, just before it fell to the Romans.

A "Christian" Jewish High Priest?

If so, then not a Zadokite of the lineage of Levi -- but perhaps something

more like a melchizedekian High Priest (which did not have to be of

the tribe of Levi). The Hasmonean priest-kings a few generations earlier

were also non-Zadokite, and may have claimed melchizedekian High Priesthood.

Psalm 110 (the Melchizedek psalm) was evidently composed during the

Hasmonean rule, and might have been preserved due to James' position.

Food for thought.

UD

.

Link to comment

But wait a minute!

All this stuff came from the Masons, right??

:P

Link to comment

You know what?

If you really want to get serious about this topic, you should look into

the tradition of James the Just (brother of Jesus) being the High priest

in the Jerusalem Temple, just before it fell to the Romans.

A "Christian" Jewish High Priest?

If so, then not a Zadokite of the lineage of Levi -- but perhaps something

more like a melchizedekian High Priest (which did not have to be of

the tribe of Levi). The Hasmonean priest-kings a few generations earlier

were also non-Zadokite, and may have claimed melchizedekian High Priesthood.

Psalm 110 (the Melchizedek psalm) was evidently composed during the

Hasmonean rule, and might have been preserved due to James' position.

Food for thought.

UD

.

Fascinating stuff.

Can you recommend sources for the James the Just material? I have not heard of this.

Link to comment

Fascinating stuff.

Can you recommend sources for the James the Just material? I have not heard of this.

You might start with Robert Eisenman's James the Brother of Jesus,

which is widely available. Then move from that to responses in the

scholarly literature (for which you'll need a University library).

In the critical apparatus of the more recent responses to Eisenman

you'll find all that you might ever want in the way of citations.

Of course just before the Romans took Jerusalem was a time of such chaos

that a donkey could have probably served as high priest on some days.

It was a mess...

UD

.

Link to comment

You might try the Washings and Anointings of Cyril of Jerusalem too.

http://www.templestu...and-anointings/

http://www.experienc...ting/id/2013327

http://washings-anoi...-post_2582.html

Cyril of Jerusalem details how ointment or oil was "symbolically applied to thy forehead, and thy other organs of sense" and that the "ears, nostrils, and breast were each to be anointed." Cyril states that the "ointment is the seal of the covenants" of baptism and God
Link to comment

You know what?

If you really want to get serious about this topic, you should look into

the tradition of James the Just (brother of Jesus) being the High priest

in the Jerusalem Temple, just before it fell to the Romans.

A "Christian" Jewish High Priest?

If so, then not a Zadokite of the lineage of Levi -- but perhaps something

more like a melchizedekian High Priest (which did not have to be of

the tribe of Levi). The Hasmonean priest-kings a few generations earlier

were also non-Zadokite, and may have claimed melchizedekian High Priesthood.

Psalm 110 (the Melchizedek psalm) was evidently composed during the

Hasmonean rule, and might have been preserved due to James' position.

Food for thought.

UD

.

Sounds like you have been supping at the table of Robert Eisenman.

Oooops, didn't read further...

Link to comment

You might start with Robert Eisenman's James the Brother of Jesus,

which is widely available. Then move from that to responses in the

scholarly literature (for which you'll need a University library).

In the critical apparatus of the more recent responses to Eisenman

you'll find all that you might ever want in the way of citations.

Of course just before the Romans took Jerusalem was a time of such chaos

that a donkey could have probably served as high priest on some days.

It was a mess...

UD

.

Dr. Eisenman was an old teacher of mine and if you can you should find his earlier work, Maccabees, Zadokites, Christians and Qumran: A New Hypothesis of Qumran Origins E. J. Brill, Leiden (1984). It is shorter and more concise.

Link to comment

This is intresting!

Hopi Indian anointing...

Of course, what amazed us were the parallels between Mormon rituals and those of the Hopi. In addition to those Hugh showed us were others called to our attention by Robert C. Bennion, an emeritus BYU professor of psychology, who accompanied us. Bob had served his mission among the Hopi and Navajo, and is a long-time friend of the Nibley family. He told us about witnessing the initiation ritual of a young woman in which the Hopi priest touched each of her sense organs with a feather dipped in corn meal, blessing them that they would function properly. Parallels appear between the language of the Mormon temple ceremony and the Hopi myth of origin in Frank Water
Link to comment

Matthew Browns lecture from last years FAIRs conference has just been posted on the FAIR website.

This is kind of a nitpicky thing but I noticed that the Swedish scholar Geo Widengren is mistakenly referred to as "George Widengren." You might want to fix that.

Link to comment

...

Oooops, didn't read further...

I don't swallow the notion that James was the Qumran Teacher of Righteousness --

but I'd bet shiblons to doughnuts that both James and his cousin John the Baptizer

knew that particular Zadokite teacher, in his old age.

UD

Link to comment

I don't swallow the notion that James was the Qumran Teacher of Righteousness --

but I'd bet shiblons to doughnuts that both James and his cousin John the Baptizer

knew that particular Zadokite teacher, in his old age.

UD

I doubt it. the evidence of the materials amongst the scrolls, some only newly published within the last few years suggests that he was martyred during the Pharisee persecution of the Essenes many years before.

Link to comment

You might start with Robert Eisenman's James the Brother of Jesus,

which is widely available. Then move from that to responses in the

scholarly literature (for which you'll need a University library).

Thanks for the reference.

I came across this a few years back; this is only the beginning of a series of annointings of various portions of the body practiced today in the Coptic Orthodox Church; I find the website totally fascinating.

THE ANOINTMENTS

The priest places his right thumb on top of the opening of the Myron bottle, and turns it downwards to wet his finger with the Myron. He then anoints the baptized as follows :

The first four anointments (eight crosses) are on the senses

Firstly, the top of the head, the nostrils, the mouth, and the right ear

Then, the right eye, the left eye, an finally the left ear

Whilst anointing, the priest says,

Link to comment

I doubt it. the evidence of the materials amongst the scrolls, some only newly published within the last few years suggests that he was martyred during the Pharisee persecution of the Essenes many years before.

OK you get my shiblons (all I have, really!)

And I'll do without doughnuts for yet another day.

This pastry fast is killing me!

My kingdom for a Krispy Kreme, (even a DCP crumb!)

UD

Link to comment

Eisenman makes a big deal of the Rechabite origins of James and John, and the parallels he draws have always made me wonder about Lehi's family. Nephi's focus on 'keeping the commandments of my father' (see the Rechabites in Jer 35), scribal abilities, metal-working knowledge, and priestly functions outside a Zadokite lineage all point to something that sounds very Rechabite-ish. The Rechabites were metal workers and scribes who had intermarried with the Israelites. They were the old Kennites like Jethro, who had the Mel. priesthood (D&C 84 territory).

Link to comment

Except that there is nothing unique about the focus on the commandments of his father, that is in fact the traditional social framework of the Middle East.

I also see precious little evdience of Nephi having been a metalworker.

Link to comment

...

I also see precious little evdience of Nephi having been a metalworker.

I thought that FARMS scholars had conclusively demonstrated that he was a

Kenite smith, well experienced "moultening" ore out of Arabian sandstone.

I'm more curious as to how Nephi launched his ship. Must have taken a lot of

heavy lifting; some grunting; and perhaps even a little groaning. Those old

Lehite ocean-crossing vessels were heavy things!

UD

Link to comment

Except that there is nothing unique about the focus on the commandments of his father, that is in fact the traditional social framework of the Middle East.

I also see precious little evdience of Nephi having been a metalworker.

You haven't read the Book of Mormon, then? Nephi knew exactly what the sword of Laban was made of and used words that would be from one who would respect excellent craftsmanship. He also taught the people how to make objects out of metal. He looked for ore to make tools before they ever left the old world. How does this not indicate that Nephi knew a thing or two about metallurgy?

Link to comment

You haven't read the Book of Mormon, then? Nephi knew exactly what the sword of Laban was made of and used words that would be from one who would respect excellent craftsmanship. He also taught the people how to make objects out of metal. He looked for ore to make tools before they ever left the old world. How does this not indicate that Nephi knew a thing or two about metallurgy?

Huck Finn knew a thing or two about Mississippi rafts -- but I'm

still not quite convinced of his real-world rafting abilities.

But --- it's "in the book," so it must be true.

UD

Link to comment

Huck Finn knew a thing or two about Mississippi rafts -- but I'm

still not quite convinced of his real-world rafting abilities.

But --- it's "in the book," so it must be true.

UD

The difference is that Huck Finn is a known fictional character invented by Samuel Clemens, a.k.a. Mark Twain. Of course, you would retort--sans real evidence--that the Book of Mormon also is fictional, so I suppose it would be a fruitless endeavor to try to get through the thickness.

Link to comment

You haven't read the Book of Mormon, then? Nephi knew exactly what the sword of Laban was made of and used words that would be from one who would respect excellent craftsmanship. He also taught the people how to make objects out of metal. He looked for ore to make tools before they ever left the old world. How does this not indicate that Nephi knew a thing or two about metallurgy?

I thought someone would use 1 N 4:9. All it says is that the hilt was of finely crafted gold and the blade was of very precious steel. Doesn't take a metallurgist to tell that! I think the lack of technical jargon or detailed descriptions is telling. You'd expect a smith or a smelter to talk about things a little deeper. Nephi's description is pretty superficial. Anyway, his reaction reminds me of my visit to the Wallace Collection in London. I could appreciate the fine worksmanship on the oriental swords, many of which had finely worked gold hilts and blades of precious steel, without being a metallurgist. You'd have to be blind not to appreciate the craftsmanship.

I find Nephi's description something a 15 year old would say about a fancy sports car. Most 15 year olds would be very appreciative of the worksmanship of an Alpha Romero, but it doesn't make them auto mechanics.

Nephi looked for ore to make tools in order to leave the Old World. This was after the Lord showed him how to build a ship. Even I know that you can't build so much as a house, let alone a ship, without tools.

He taught people how to make metal objects after he had learned how.

It doesn't seem to have taken much hold among his descendants.

My point is that there is no indication that Nephi had any metallurgical knowledge before the Lord instructed him on how to build a ship.

Link to comment

...

you would retort--sans real evidence--that the Book of Mormon also is fictional

...

At least we can know that its writer(s) must have been real. Fictional people

do not produce real, published texts. We can also deduce that the writer of

1st Nephi had some interest in metalworking -- at least enough interest to

record several instances (fictional or otherwise) of how a skilled miner,

metallurgist, forge operator or smith might obtain and fabricate metal items.

Here, on the other hand, is a purely fictional account of such stuff:

He still continued to associate among the people & was indefatigable

in his labours to dispel their ignorance, correct their superstition

& vices to excite their industry & to defuse a more accurate knowledge

of the mechanical arts -- The manufacture of Iron in particular was

not known; this he taught a number by showing them how to build a

small furnace & to cast iron ware -- & then how to build a small forge

& refine pigs and convert them into Iron ...

The manufacturing of Iron & lead was understood but was not carried on

to that extent & perfection as in Europe. A small quantity of Iron in

proportion to the number of inhabitants served to supply them with all

the impliments which custom had made necessary for their use -- By

hamering & hardening their Iron they would convert it nearly into the

consistence of steel -- & fit it for the purpose of edge tools...

http://www.solomonspalding.com/docs/lds1886.htm

A fictional account, but also one written by an experienced metal forge

builder and operator -- so I understand why the writer would devote a

few sentences in explanation of ancient American metalworking, and how

one Promethean fellow brought metalworking skills to an entire people.

We thus account for one example of metalworking in a fictional narrative

of the ancient Americans -- predictable because the writer was a smith.

furnace5.jpg

As for the Book of Mormon's preoccupation with obtaining, refining and

working metals, I can only suppose that its writer(s) had similar interests.

Nephforg.jpg

http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/saga2/Ashtab3.htm#1811forge

Uncle Dale

Link to comment

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...