The Israelite Temple and the Early Christians

[MormonMason]

I thought someone would use 1 N 4:9. All it says is that the hilt was of finely crafted gold and the blade was of very precious steel. Doesn't take a metallurgist to tell that! I think the lack of technical jargon or detailed descriptions is telling. You'd expect a smith or a smelter to talk about things a little deeper. Nephi's description is pretty superficial. Anyway, his reaction reminds me of my visit to the Wallace Collection in London. I could appreciate the fine worksmanship on the oriental swords, many of which had finely worked gold hilts and blades of precious steel, without being a metallurgist. You'd have to be blind not to appreciate the craftsmanship.

I find Nephi's description something a 15 year old would say about a fancy sports car. Most 15 year olds would be very appreciative of the worksmanship of an Alpha Romero, but it doesn't make them auto mechanics.

Nephi looked for ore to make tools in order to leave the Old World. This was after the Lord showed him how to build a ship. Even I know that you can't build so much as a house, let alone a ship, without tools.

He taught people how to make metal objects after he had learned how.

It doesn't seem to have taken much hold among his descendants.

My point is that there is no indication that Nephi had any metallurgical knowledge before the Lord instructed him on how to build a ship.

Then, how did he know the quality and type of metal in the blade, if he knew nothing? Wild guess? He knew how to extract metal from ore. He already had the knowledge. All he wanted to know was where to find the ore in the location where they were, not how to make tools from molten metal extracted from ore. One does not have the knowledge on how to extract metal from ore unless one had some degree of metallurgical knowledge.

[MormonMason]

Except, UD, Spalding did not write the Book of Mormon. People imagine that he did but he didn't.

[Uncle Dale]

Except, UD, Spalding did not write the Book of Mormon.

People imagine that he did but he didn't.

Well the recent computerized textual study out of Stanford University

agrees with you on that point -- (in part at least).

Solomon Spalding certainly did not write the entire Book of Mormon.

But, we are straying far from "Replying to The Israelite Temple and

the Early Christians" -- let's get back to that interesting topic.

UD

[notHagoth7]

I also see precious little evdience of Nephi having been a metalworker.

Here's some.

Here's more.

[MormonMason]

Well the recent computerized textual study out of Stanford University

agrees with you on that point -- (in part at least).

Solomon Spalding certainly did not write the entire Book of Mormon.

But, we are straying far from "Replying to The Israelite Temple and

the Early Christians" -- let's get back to that interesting topic.

UD

Spalding didn't write any of it--imaginaries aside...

Yes, let's all get back to the subject at hand. On that point, there are other interesting rituals I have read about that have parallels to LDS temple ritual, such as one particular service wherein three knocks are given by the hammerblow to gain entrance... Oh, wait, Freemasonry has such a thing, too, except it is with the hand!

[notHagoth7]

My point is that there is no indication that Nephi had any metallurgical knowledge before the Lord instructed him on how to build a ship.

Ah. That's one way to read it.

He taught people how to make metal objects after he had learned how.

It doesn't seem to have taken much hold among his descendants.

Here's an initial one that suggests otherwise.

[notHagoth7]

Here's an initial one that suggests otherwise.

And here's another.

Hmm, I've never noticed the "machinery" before. Kewl.

[Uncle Dale]

...

I have read about that have parallels to LDS temple ritual

...

May interest you -- as for me, I believe Nathan was right in the

first advice he gave to King David. All that came thereafter

was apostasy.

Then again, Jesus seems to have found it possible to have a

"House of Prayer" even within the heathen Herod's spacious

construction project. Perhaps he was praying for the day that

the complex would be destroyed, so much so that not one stone

would stand upon another (in Herod's work).

"Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

UD

[volgadon]

Then, how did he know the quality and type of metal in the blade, if he knew nothing? Wild guess? He knew how to extract metal from ore. He already had the knowledge. All he wanted to know was where to find the ore in the location where they were, not how to make tools from molten metal extracted from ore. One does not have the knowledge on how to extract metal from ore unless one had some degree of metallurgical knowledge.

Were I to look at a finely-made sword, I wouldn't assume that the steel was anything but precious. I don't for one second imagine that the blade was crudely made. Quality shows. Nephi's statement tells us very little about the blade. We have no idea what kind of steel, or what grade, etc. All we have is a statement that it was of the most precious steel. I think that refers to the finished product as much as anything.

You are assuming that he already knew how to smelt. The Lord instructed him in building a ship, does that limit the instruction only to how to put the beams together?

I'm not saying that Nephi had no metallurgical knowledge (though personally I doubt it) just that we have precious little evidence that he did.

[MormonMason]

Were I to look at a finely-made sword, I wouldn't assume that the steel was anything but precious. I don't for one second imagine that the blade was crudely made. Quality shows. Nephi's statement tells us very little about the blade. We have no idea what kind of steel, or what grade, etc. All we have is a statement that it was of the most precious steel. I think that refers to the finished product as much as anything.

You are assuming that he already knew how to smelt. The Lord instructed him in building a ship, does that limit the instruction only to how to put the beams together?

I'm not saying that Nephi had no metallurgical knowledge (though personally I doubt it) just that we have precious little evidence that he did.

I am just trying to wrap my head around this claim that there is "precious little evidence" when there are a number of references in the Book of Mormon that he did have knowledge. Do I believe that he was a metalworker by trade? No. I believe that he was doing what dutiful children of tradesmen did, learned and apprenticed at the family business.

But, that Nephi knew how to extract metals from ore means, to me at least, that he knew something of the trade. For instance, one also can know the quality of the steel from its overall appearance. Anyway, there is nothing in the text of the Book of Mormon that would show that Nephi did not know how to extract metal from ore and asked the Lord how to do it. He is made to appear from the text already to know how to extract metal from ore to make tools. He just had to ask where it might be found in his new location.

In my view the evidence that Nephi had metallurgical knowledge in even the smallest degree is pretty ubiquitous from the text itself. Nephi was not afraid of stating what kinds of instruction came from the Lord. On the other hand, he never says anything about the Lord teaching him how to extract metals from ore as he did about the ship.

[volgadon]

I am just trying to wrap my head around this claim that there is "precious little evidence" when there are a number of references in the Book of Mormon that he did have knowledge. Do I believe that he was a metalworker by trade? No. I believe that he was doing what dutiful children of tradesmen did, learned and apprenticed at the family business.

It is this assumption that I am attacking, that Lehi and family were metal workers.

Certainly it is possible to reach such a conclusion, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation, but the evidence that he was is sparse and hardly strong. Assumption builds on assumption.

Is there any indication of metallurgical knowledge from any of the other brothers or from Lehi himself?

But, that Nephi knew how to extract metals from ore means, to me at least, that he knew something of the trade.

You are assuming that he knew before his conversation with the Lord. It is not at all clear that such is the case.

For instance, one also can know the quality of the steel from its overall appearance.

And one does not have to be a metallurgist in order to see that it is expensive.

Anyway, there is nothing in the text of the Book of Mormon that would show that Nephi did not know how to extract metal from ore and asked the Lord how to do it. He is made to appear from the text already to know how to extract metal from ore to make tools. He just had to ask where it might be found in his new location.

Which is one way of reading the text, that is all.

One could also argue that were he a metal worker he'd know what kind of rocks contain ore.

In my view the evidence that Nephi had metallurgical knowledge in even the smallest degree is pretty ubiquitous from the text itself. Nephi was not afraid of stating what kinds of instruction came from the Lord. On the other hand, he never says anything about the Lord teaching him how to extract metals from ore as he did about the ship.

you are assuming that it wasn't part of the instruction on how to build a ship.

[Zakuska]

And here's another.

Hmm, I've never noticed the "machinery" before. Kewl.

I don't see swords listed among the weapons of war...

"yea, the sharp pointed arrow, and the quiver, and the dart, and the javelin, and all preparations for war. "

But all that is listed was used by Indians on the American Continent.

[volgadon]

It is interesting that steel isn't mentioned after 2 N.

[volgadon]

Another thought I had is that we don't know know how much trial and error went into Nephi's smelting, how many times he had to do it, etc.

[Zakuska]

Did you forget the verse I partially quoted?

1. Jarom 1: 8 8 And we multiplied exceedingly, and spread upon the face of the land, and became exceedingly rich in gold, and in silver, and in precious things, and in fine workmanship of wood, in buildings, and in machinery, and also in iron and copper, and brass and steel, making all manner of tools of every kind to till the ground, and weapons of war

[Uncle Dale]

...

brass and steel

...

Well then, Nephi's teachings did not go to waste in later years,

it seems. That's comforting.

The alloying of bronze or brass takes a bit more work than just

refining the big chunks of foreign matter out of gold, silver,

copper, iron, etc.

I wonder where the remnants of those bronze, brass and steel works

might be located? Any suggestions on where to begin excavations?

UD

[J Green]

Except that there is nothing unique about the focus on the commandments of his father, that is in fact the traditional social framework of the Middle East.

Well, yes and no. There certainly is the traditional framework you speak of. I have spent most of my life in the Middle East and understand this. However, the Rechabites were a little more inisistant on their adherance and how they vocalized it. Very Nazerite-ish. It's the reason Jeremiah singles them out--because they are adhering to the expected social framework in a more 'zealous' fashion than anyone else at the time. And I see a thread running through Nephi's writings that reflect an attitude that is more comparable to a Nazerite/Rechabite zealousness than the norm. Just my opinion.

I also see precious little evdience of Nephi having been a metalworker.

I agree there isn't much to go on either way. What makes ME suspect that Nephi has a metal-working background is the fact that he characteristically admits when he doesn't know something. He doesn't know how to build a ship. He doesn't understand the vision of the tree of life. He admits it when he doesn't know it, so he can point out how it will be revealed to you. But he doesn't admit to this. He doesn't say, "I don't know how to work metal." He simply says, "Where do I go to find the ore?" And he simply tells us that he makes bellows. And so on. In other words, he doesn't tell us that it is the product of revelation, and he usually does when it is. I understand that it could be, but that doesn't seem to fit Nephi's pattern.

[Zakuska]

Well then, Nephi's teachings did not go to waste in later years,

it seems. That's comforting.

The alloying of bronze or brass takes a bit more work than just

refining the big chunks of foreign matter out of gold, silver,

copper, iron, etc.

I wonder where the remnants of those bronze, brass and steel works

might be located? Any suggestions on where to begin excavations?

UD

Whos to say they havent already been dug up?

Jaredite tools and weapons where already rusting away to nothing when the nephites came across them.

[Zakuska]

Post moved.

[Uncle Dale]

...rusting away to nothing...

I thought that brass held up pretty well to long-term corrosion.

There should just be a thin layer of oxidation on the surface,

rather like corrosion on ancient silver items -- no?

UD

[Zakuska]

UD,

There should just be a thin layer of oxidation on the surface,

rather like corrosion on ancient silver items -- no?

Looks that way to me...

Moved from other thread...

These Copper Culture tools from Northern Wisconsin were made between 4,000 B.C. and 1,200 B.C.

http://tinyurl.com/y9a7fll

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Copper tools whose wood hafting remains have been preserved due to anti-bacterial protection by copper oxides have been radiocarbon dated to 6800 BP at South Fowl Lake, Minnesota, site 21CK1. This date for a completed copper tool and inferred technology indicates that the people who inhabited the Lake Superior basin from 7000 to perhaps as early as 8000 years BP were utilizing amygdaloidal native copper or native copper float deposited by the glacial retreat 10000-12000 BP. They mined the amygdaloidal native copper, as evidenced by thousands of man made pits found in Minnesota, Wisconsin, Ontario, Isle Royale and the Upper Peninsula of Michigan.

http://csasi.org/200...l_poundings.htm

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://csasi.org/200...l_poundings.htm

So copper weapons and tools where being made by Native American peoples well before Book of Mormon times!

[MormonMason]

It is this assumption that I am attacking, that Lehi and family were metal workers.

Certainly it is possible to reach such a conclusion, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation, but the evidence that he was is sparse and hardly strong. Assumption builds on assumption.

Is there any indication of metallurgical knowledge from any of the other brothers or from Lehi himself?

Not so far as I am aware but then the book does not tell us everything about all of them as it focuses on Nephi and on abridging his father's record. Maybe if we had the Book of Lehi still, we might have known more about the family and their doings. Nephi abridged the record of his father in his own second set of plates, which became the Book of Mormon.

You will note, however, that the brothers did not poke fun at him for thinking to make tools out of metal or of how to extract metal from ore, like they did for the building of the ship. From what we have, that was assumed knowledge. They laughed about the shipbuilding business, not his skill at metalworking.

You are assuming that he knew before his conversation with the Lord. It is not at all clear that such is the case.

I respectfully disagree. His comment about the quality of the steeled metal in the blade is an indicator.

And one does not have to be a metallurgist in order to see that it is expensive.

For the gold, this would be true. For the quality of the steel this would not be true. In the old Middle East, there were a number of kinds of iron used in various ways, of varying quality. Nephi would have to have known what kind of steeled metal and known the quality to make the kind of comment regarding the steel he saw in the blade.

Which is one way of reading the text, that is all.

One could also argue that were he a metal worker he'd know what kind of rocks contain ore.

He already knew what ore looked like. He did not ask what kinds of rocks he needed to look for or even what ore looked like, only where he might go to find ore. He had just reached this area and knew nothing about his surroundings at that point in time. I am sure he could have spent days looking for the stuff and digging under the soils and into the rock to find the ore in any places where he looked, but that is not what he did.

He already knew how to make tools and already knew how to use impliments to make the metal. He only asked where to find the ore. The precise instructions as to how to shape the timbers for use to build the ship came later (1 Nephi 18:1-2), after he had made the tools.

you are assuming that it wasn't part of the instruction on how to build a ship.

If it were part of the instruction to build the ship, I am certain that we would have heard about it. As explained above by another poster, Nephi mentioned whenever the Lord gave him instructions to do something. No such thing happened here in the instance of knowing that he needed tools, knowing how to make tools from extracted metal, knowing how to use flint to make fire, and knowing how to use bellows of his own construction for the extraction of metal from ore, and, later, from his teaching the people how to make a number of metals when they reached the new world.

[MormonMason]

Well then, Nephi's teachings did not go to waste in later years,

it seems. That's comforting.

The alloying of bronze or brass takes a bit more work than just

refining the big chunks of foreign matter out of gold, silver,

copper, iron, etc.

I wonder where the remnants of those bronze, brass and steel works

might be located? Any suggestions on where to begin excavations?

UD

Mexico is a good spot to look harder than they have, that is for sure. We know that the Olmec had iron mining in the years BCE. We also know that findings of metals and slags have taken place in Mexico.

In fact, one ceramic pot from 300 BCE was found to contain the remains of what appeared to be smelted copper and iron. Conical lumps of iron oxide (the kind one would expect when an iron object rusts away, not magnetite) have been found in a place in Mexico as well.

Of course, the soil there in many places is very acidic so I do not expect much in the way of preservation. But, it is worth a deeper look than it has received.

[volgadon]

Not so far as I am aware but then the book does not tell us everything about all of them as it focuses on Nephi and on abridging his father's record. Maybe if we had the Book of Lehi still, we might have known more about the family and their doings. Nephi abridged the record of his father in his own second set of plates, which became the Book of Mormon.

So like I said, assumptions.

You will note, however, that the brothers did not poke fun at him for thinking to make tools out of metal or of how to extract metal from ore, like they did for the building of the ship. From what we have, that was assumed knowledge. They laughed about the shipbuilding business, not his skill at metalworking.

There is a fundamental difference between smelting tools and building a highly technical and difficult contraption such as a ship, which could very well be a death trap. A folly at any rate. One wonders if he actually told them beforehand or did he show up in camp and say grab a tool each, we are going to build a ship.

If the family trade was metal work, why didn't he take any of his brothers with him to help?

I respectfully disagree. His comment about the quality of the steeled metal in the blade is an indicator.

He comments that it is most precious, IE very expensive. I could guess as much.

For the gold, this would be true. For the quality of the steel this would not be true. In the old Middle East, there were a number of kinds of iron used in various ways, of varying quality. Nephi would have to have known what kind of steeled metal and known the quality to make the kind of comment regarding the steel he saw in the blade.

And he picked all this up from a glance in the dark?

Are you suggesting that a sword with a gold hilt would have a cheap looking blade and that only a metal worker could pick up on the quality?

Note that Nephi says little about the steel beyond its being costly. He never says what kind it is. That is the sort of missing metallurgical detail I'm talking about.

He already knew how to make tools and already knew how to use impliments to make the metal. He only asked where to find the ore. The precise instructions as to how to shape the timbers for use to build the ship came later (1 Nephi 18:1-2), after he had made the tools.

Like I said, there is more to shipbuilding than just shaping timbers.

If it were part of the instruction to build the ship, I am certain that we would have heard about it. As explained above by another poster, Nephi mentioned whenever the Lord gave him instructions to do something. No such thing happened here in the instance of knowing that he needed tools, knowing how to make tools from extracted metal, knowing how to use flint to make fire, and knowing how to use bellows of his own construction for the extraction of metal from ore, and, later, from his teaching the people how to make a number of metals when they reached the new world.

He never asks the Lord what kind of tools to make either. I find it hard to wrap my brain around that. Imagine if he had gone to the effort of smelting ore and making tools, only to find that he forgot one, or had the wrong kinds! a smith knows how to make tools, but not necessarily what kind to make, especially not in such a rare and specific venture as shipbuilding. I think Nephi always mentioning what he doesn't know, and by extension if he doesn't mention something he knows what he is doing, is an assumption and a half.

That he taught the people later how to work metal is rather irrelevant.

[David Bokovoy]

Eisenman makes a big deal of the Rechabite origins of James and John, and the parallels he draws have always made me wonder about Lehi's family. Nephi's focus on 'keeping the commandments of my father' (see the Rechabites in Jer 35), scribal abilities, metal-working knowledge, and priestly functions outside a Zadokite lineage all point to something that sounds very Rechabite-ish. The Rechabites were metal workers and scribes who had intermarried with the Israelites. They were the old Kennites like Jethro, who had the Mel. priesthood (D&C 84 territory).

That's interesting. Have you written these links up?

Volgadon,

Except that there is nothing unique about the focus on the commandments of his father, that is in fact the traditional social framework of the Middle East.

I also see precious little evdience of Nephi having been a metalworker.

I have to disagree. I believe that Nephi's focus upon the commandments of his father, together with Nephi's intentional repetition of the expression "my father" is clearly unique and serves a variety of distinct purposes. Nephi's expression "my father" appears a total of twelve times in the initial twenty-two verses of the Book of Mormon. Throughout the Old Testament, "there are certain well-known passages in which the prophetic leader is called abi, 'my father,'" a title previously unknown in that sense to the prophet Joseph Smith, yet apparently recognized by the prophet Nephi; see James G. Williams, "The Prophetic 'Father': A Brief Explanation of the Term 'Sons of the Prophets,'" Journal of Biblical Literature 85 (1966): 345.

"And Elisha saw it," reports the author of 2 Kings concerning the chief prophet Elijah's ascent into heaven, "and he cried, My father, my father . . ." (2 Kings 2:12).

Nephi's emphasis upon the word "my father," is unique and there's absolutely no reason for Nephi to constantly remind his readers of the biological relationship he shares with Lehi, unless the repetition serves an intentional literary purpose similar to the narrative device in Genesis 22.