Does God Love The Wicked?

[O-Brother]

Your not going to find God loves the wicked literally in the bible there is no argument from that point. However if the Lord forgives the wicked then you must and that will incur love also.

I'll put a scenario for you. Hawaii is the front line in the Pacific. Should the unthinkable happen and we are overrun with lets say Chinese forces. They break into my home take my wife and myself, rape her and ask us to deny Christ. Are they being wicked? Of course, but would I still be able to have Christlike charity and forgive them and love. The answer is yes as would my wife. I know her answer because we discussed this at one time based on a previous US/China situation that brought tension. We decided we would rather sacrifice ourselves than kill our fellow man. All men are our spiritual brothers. We are all here to learn even if we fail miserably. We all come from the same earthly father (Adam) and as spirits from intelligence our Heavenly Father. The martyrs of Rome went through the same process as Nero and Caligula persecuted them because they understood the principle of the Saviors sacrifice. Death in this world is not the end and those who learn to forgive and to love will be exalted.

Do you honestly think that HF does not love all his children even when they do foolish and rotten things? What is the whole point of Christs efforts of sacrifice on the cross if we cannot learn to forgive and love one another? Even though it's not directly quoted to love the wicked it is a necessary step for salvation to love all, and that even means the wicked. If we cannot then Lucifer wins period.

The scenario you've mentioned has been the reality in the Middle East for a long time now. However, you ask me if I honestly believe that HF does not love ALL of his

children even when they do foolish and rotten things. My answer is: if they willingly shed innocent blood, rob the innocence of the pure, no, they're doomed. We're all required to forgive all men, according to Christ. However, I believe that HF will cast out the wicked, punish them and send them into everlasting torment to dwell with the Devil and his followers. Others will end up in the Telestial Kingdom. No, I don't think HF loves people who kill children as one example of wickedness. I base this on scripture, for example:

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. MATT 18:6.

No mention of love there and notice that the prescribed punishment is just for "offending" - possibly meaning molestation - ONE of the little ones. It says nothing about killing them, something that happens daily in THIS country. The wicked are to be destroyed in this life and the life to come. This is all in our own scriptures. D&C inclusive. Not to mention the teachings we have about "virtue". Read Spencer W. Kimball's statements in this regard. These evil men not only rape wives but also children. They are just that, evil. Wicked. They're doomed. But there are people who, for some odd reason, can see a child rapist reformed and becoming someone good again. Virtue is virtue. He may change but what he took cannot be restored. (Offenses) and if he KILLED one of them, it gets even uglier for him in this life and the life to come. That's what the scriptures clearly say. I have no problem understanding that.

[Lightbearer]

The scripture above doesn't say that God Himself will be weeping over them, only the Heavens. It's not specific although you specified the scripture as such. Is there as scripture that says that God loves the wicked, specifically?

Sorry I had to post this too quickly and was unable to include the following in that quote:

(Moses 7:28-37) "And it came to pass that the God of heaven looked upon the residue of the people, and he wept; and Enoch bore record of it, saying: How is it that the heavens weep, and shed forth their tears as the rain upon the mountains? And Enoch said unto the Lord: How is it that thou canst weep, seeing thou art holy, and from all eternity to all eternity? And were it possible that man could number the particles of the earth, yea, millions of earths like this, it would not be a beginning to the number of thy creations; and thy curtains are stretched out still; and yet thou art there, and thy bosom is there; and also thou art just; thou art merciful and kind forever; And thou hast taken Zion to thine own bosom, from all thy creations, from all eternity to all eternity; and naught but peace, justice, and truth is the habitation of thy throne; and mercy shall go before thy face and have no end; how is it thou canst weep? The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency; And unto thy brethren have I said, and also given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father; but behold, they are without affection, and they hate their own blood; And the fire of mine indignation is kindled against them; and in my hot displeasure will I send in the floods upon them, for my fierce anger is kindled against them. Behold, I am God; Man of Holiness is my name; Man of Counsel is my name; and Endless and Eternal is my name, also. Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren. But behold, their sins shall be upon the heads of their fathers; Satan shall be their father, and misery shall be their doom; and the whole heavens shall weep over them, even all the workmanship of mine hands; wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?"

From the entire passage I think it says that He does love them. But He cannot save them in their sins, if they do not choose Him to be their father then they are lost. Enoch made quite a deal out of God weeping, and the portion of the passage that I quoted seems to be an explanation of why He would weep. And why? Because He loves them in spite of their iniquity. I would also ask does the scriptures say that God hates the wicked? Or does he only hate the wickedness?

The only thing that comes close is the following:

(Proverbs 6:16-19) "These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."

Note it states that these six "things" doth the Lord hate... not people or beings. He hates the actions. Why would God require us to love our enemies, if He did not?

[O-Brother]

Sorry I had to post this too quickly and was unable to include the following in that quote:From the entire passage I think it says that He does love them. But He cannot save them in their sins, if they do not choose Him to be their father then they are lost. Enoch made quite a deal out of God weeping, and the portion of the passage that I quoted seems to be an explanation of why He would weep. And why? Because He loves them in spite of their iniquity. I would also ask does the scriptures say that God hates the wicked? Or does he only hate the wickedness?

The only thing that comes close is the following:Note it states that these six "things" doth the Lord hate... not people or beings. He hates the actions. Why would God require us to love our enemies, if He did not?

I know. I've been having problems with my browser and have to go back and make corrections. Well, the passage you mention shows that the Lord has emotions and it does show that HE weeps over the fate of the wicked. It doesn't say he loves them but it shows that he is sorry about what's going to happen to them. The scriptures do say that God hates the wicked, yes. Another person has posted many references to that and so have I. But you're talking about the Lord Jesus Christ here and not God. Jesus interceded for us or else...right? What would have happened had Jesus not become the Redeemer? The Topic is GOD, not Jesus. Two separate personages.

NO, no, I goofed. It does say GOd of Heaven. You are right. So, this scripture is about the Father or Jesus? What is the context? It says "And Enoch said unto the Lord: " This is important. The God of Heaven meaning the Father or the Son? It says the Lord.

[SlackTime]

I know. I've been having problems with my browser and have to go back and make corrections. Well, the passage you mention shows that the Lord has emotions and it does show that HE weeps over the fate of the wicked. It doesn't say he loves them but it shows that he is sorry about what's going to happen to them. The scriptures do say that God hates the wicked, yes. Another person has posted many references to that and so have I. But you're talking about the Lord Jesus Christ here and not God. Jesus interceded for us or else...right? What would have happened had Jesus not become the Redeemer? The Topic is GOD, not Jesus. Two separate personages.

NO, no, I goofed. It does say GOd of Heaven. You are right. So, this scripture is about the Father or Jesus? What is the context? It says "And Enoch said unto the Lord: " This is important. The God of Heaven meaning the Father or the Son? It says the Lord.

It doesn't matter whether it is God the Father, or God the Son, for they are one in every point of desire towards the Children of Men. I personally think Enoch was speaking with the Son, for God the Father has given the Son all power and responsibility for carrying out the Salvation and Exaltation of Man, but I do not think the Son wept alone. The Father and the Son are one in their love for all mankind and would that all would repent and return to them.

[thesometimesaint]

Love the sinner, hate the sin.

[O-Brother]

It doesn't matter whether it is God the Father, or God the Son, for they are one in every point of desire towards the Children of Men. I personally think Enoch was speaking with the Son, for God the Father has given the Son all power and responsibility for carrying out the Salvation and Exaltation of Man, but I do not think the Son wept alone. The Father and the Son are one in their love for all mankind and would that all would repent and return to them.

.

But behold, their sins shall be upon the heads of their fathers; Satan shall be their father, and misery shall be their doom; and the whole heavens shall weep over them, even all the workmanship of mine hands; wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?"

I think the above reiterates what I've been sayign all along: the wicked will be doomed and the weeping is over their destiny: suffering. I guess we will just have to politely disagree on this topic. I think you believe God loves the wicked and we're back to square one. I don't think He does. I will pray about it but so far my gut feeling says that love builds, it doesn't destroy or doom. For example: "If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?"

Don't you think the wicked who are about to be doomed as stated above would be begging for mercy at this point, yet they will get doomed anyway? Furthermore, do you think not one of the 1/3 said, please don't expell me?

Something to think about.

[William the Conqueror]

We can't answer for God, obviously, but if you were to guess, would you say he loves Laban, Stallin, Hittler, etc.?

He did love Hitler and Stalin while they were alive. I doubt the existence of Laban.

[O-Brother]

He did love Hitler and Stalin while they were alive. I doubt the existence of Laban.

Even when they were killing innocent Jewish children and their mothers in the fields and gas chambers? They were giving the orders, right? See, this is what perplexes me is that people would believe that HF would love such monsters when he kicked 1/3 FOREVER out for simple disobedience and rebellion to the Plan. Makes no sense. Maybe part of us want to believe God loves the wicked so there is hope for us in the eternities. Hard to know for sure what triggers this notion. Simply put, here are these monsters killing thousands of God's innocent and the thought that HF loves the killers. Think about it. That's "freaky." Laban lost his head for a lot less. Think of Herod and what he did. The master minds behind the Inquisition and all those innocent people tortured and burned at the stake. Scripture repeatedly show that God will destroy the wicked, not love them. The 1/3 are consider wicked, no? Satan? Anyway.

All Loved? I think these men and women will be destroyed and that they were loved up to the point where they went from being sinners to becoming "wicked". They were loved enough to come to earth up to the point where they turned against the innocent and shed innocent blood. There have been thousands of them. If you want to picture "the wicked" these are they. These few pictures represent dozens hundreds of innocent lives destroyed. These, according to scripture, will be forever doomed. This picture doesn't even include evil world leaders and more recent evil doers. (Columbine, Trolley Square, Suicide Crazies, violent gang members, rapists, murderers, etc.)

Look at them. Do you see why it was mentioned earlier that they have become the children of the Devil? Many of them even look the part.

In the present tense, they're no longer loved. They're awaiting doom's day. The Final Judgment.

[Lightbearer]

I know. I've been having problems with my browser and have to go back and make corrections. Well, the passage you mention shows that the Lord has emotions and it does show that HE weeps over the fate of the wicked. It doesn't say he loves them but it shows that he is sorry about what's going to happen to them. The scriptures do say that God hates the wicked, yes. Another person has posted many references to that and so have I. But you're talking about the Lord Jesus Christ here and not God. Jesus interceded for us or else...right? What would have happened had Jesus not become the Redeemer? The Topic is GOD, not Jesus. Two separate personages.

NO, no, I goofed. It does say GOd of Heaven. You are right. So, this scripture is about the Father or Jesus? What is the context? It says "And Enoch said unto the Lord: " This is important. The God of Heaven meaning the Father or the Son? It says the Lord.

Now do you think our brother Jesus Christ loves all of us MORE than the Father? Who's will was it that His beloved Son suffer for our sins if we will repent? I also think of it this way, I am a weak mortal sinner, yet I love my son unconditionally. If he becomes the vilest of sinners and rejects me and my God I will still love him, always and forever. I would give my life for him. Are you saying that God is incapable of that kind of love? I don't know if it has been mentioned in this thread but Elder Oaks gave a talk in Conference on the love of God and it's relationship with His laws:

(General Conference October 2009: "Love and Law" by Elder Dallin H. Oaks Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles) "God

[Jason]

I'm not sure why some people on this thread think you can't destroy some one you love.

[O-Brother]

Now do you think our brother Jesus Christ loves all of us MORE than the Father? Who's will was it that His beloved Son suffer for our sins if we will repent? I also think of it this way, I am a weak mortal sinner, yet I love my son unconditionally. If he becomes the vilest of sinners and rejects me and my God I will still love him, always and forever. I would give my life for him. Are you saying that God is incapable of that kind of love? I don't know if it has been mentioned in this thread but Elder Oaks gave a talk in Conference on the love of God and it's relationship with His laws: The entire talk is here: Love and Law

This may explain some of the discussion in this thread and put it into context.

That's an excellent talk and it does mention this: "In other words, the kingdom of glory to which the Final Judgment assigns us is not determined by love but by the law that God has invoked in His plan to qualify us for eternal life,

[divinenature]

I have yet to see a single scripture posted that states God hates wicked people.

O-Brother, would you please point out the exact scripture that states God hates wicked people? I haven't seen one to support that conclusion yet.

[O-Brother]

I have yet to see a single scripture posted that states God hates wicked people.

O-Brother, would you please point out the exact scripture that states God hates wicked people? I haven't seen one to support that conclusion yet.

Go a few posts back, there are several. Also remember this:

Russell M. Nelson,

[divinenature]

Go a few posts back, there are several. Also remember this:

Russell M. Nelson,

[handys003]

The scenario you've mentioned has been the reality in the Middle East for a long time now. However, you ask me if I honestly believe that HF does not love ALL of his

children even when they do foolish and rotten things. My answer is: if they willingly shed innocent blood, rob the innocence of the pure, no, they're doomed. We're all required to forgive all men, according to Christ. However, I believe that HF will cast out the wicked, punish them and send them into everlasting torment to dwell with the Devil and his followers. Others will end up in the Telestial Kingdom. No, I don't think HF loves people who kill children as one example of wickedness. I base this on scripture, for example:

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. MATT 18:6.

No mention of love there and notice that the prescribed punishment is just for "offending" - possibly meaning molestation - ONE of the little ones. It says nothing about killing them, something that happens daily in THIS country. The wicked are to be destroyed in this life and the life to come. This is all in our own scriptures. D&C inclusive. Not to mention the teachings we have about "virtue". Read Spencer W. Kimball's statements in this regard. These evil men not only rape wives but also children. They are just that, evil. Wicked. They're doomed. But there are people who, for some odd reason, can see a child rapist reformed and becoming someone good again. Virtue is virtue. He may change but what he took cannot be restored. (Offenses) and if he KILLED one of them, it gets even uglier for him in this life and the life to come. That's what the scriptures clearly say. I have no problem understanding that.

I wonder what your definition of Christs charity is? You seem to equate judgement with love in the same category.

[O-Brother]

I wonder what your definition of Christs charity is? You seem to equate judgement with love in the same category.

Neither. My perspective is that God does not love the wicked and that the scriptures clearly state that God will doom the wicked. Brother Nelson clearly stated that

God's love is conditional. I have already defined the wicked numerous times. It appears that there is confusion between understanding that I am not talking about us

sinners but "The wicked" I also mentioned examples of wicked men without even touching most of history's evil men. Scripture after scripture exemplify what GOD will do to them and how he will "destroy" them. I am a little perplexed at how people can equate "destroying the wicked" with "loving them" even when Brother Russell M. Nelson has clearly defined conditional love and brother Oaks has also mentioned that the judgment is not based on LOVE but on the LAW. (Not the exact words, please see previous posts for the exact wording on that). Now, I just need to show the brother who posted before you that God does indeed despise, is angry with and does not have any redeeming plans for the wicked I have mentioned. I have agreed that all of us can repent and be forgiven. But AGAIN, that's a different group of people. and AGAIN, let me say that I am talking about the likes of Ted Bundy and other serial killers, child killers, child molesters, child rapists, executioners of genocide, Hitler, Saddam Hussein and his sons, Herod, Attila The Hun, Maximilien Robespierre (killed ~40,000 people),Ruhollah Khomeini,(killed ~30,000), Idi Amin Dada, Leopold II of Belgium (killed about 3 MILLION, Hitler (1.5 - 6.0 Million Jews), Pol Pot, Vlad ?epe? (The atrocities committed by Vlad in the German stories include impaling, torturing, burning, skinning, roasting, and boiling people, feeding people the flesh of their friends or relatives, cutting off limbs, and drowning. It was common for people when approaching/talking/consulting/soming face-to-face with a lord such as Vlad is to remove the turbans, it is not allowed for Muslims to do this and so a messenger told this to Vlad, so Vlad from then on ordered that any Muslim that does not remove his turban shall have it nailed to his head - Wikipedia),Ivan IV of Russia, Josef Stalin (10 Million to 60,000 Million killed during his reign). Now, as people mention God loving these wicked men, I can't help but to think of their victims, combined, number the millions. These are the "wicked" I've been referring to all along. If you believe God loves them, I respect that and respectfully disagree. Furthermore, there were two thieves on the cross, one went to Paradise and the other didn't. Did one of the thieves happen to be wicked? Whom did Jesus love more? Both? As brother Oaks stated, judgment is based on the law and not love. But I can understand some folks thinking that everyone is loved equally. I just happen to think that it's not quite like that. When brother Nelson stated that love IS conditional, the whole Christian world had a fit. Up to that time, everyone had been preaching "unconditional love" as the rule. Some truths are hard to accept.

[thesometimesaint]

O-Brother:

No God does not hate the sinner. He hates the sin, and yes I am all to aware of the evil that men do.

[Jason]

Why is this thread still going? I thought it was pretty definitively settled in post #21 with President Uchtdorf's talk from this last GC. God does, in fact, love even the wicked.

[BCSpace]

I want to make a distinction beweet regular sinners and the wicked. Wickedness that goes beyond just being sinful but blatantly evil. Sinners can repent and come unto Christ and be saved. Yet, according to many scriptures, unrepentant wicked people will be cut off, cast out, etc.

But even the wicked can repent and be forgiven. So yes, God loves the wicked too. In the judgement, I think it will go much less well for the wicked as compared to sinners according to your definition.

[Lightbearer]

I think I understand what you are trying to get at, only I think it sounds harsh, because we have been commanded to love our enemies, do good to them that curse you and persecute you. Why would God command us to do something that He does not do? I would ask why would God hate the wicked? I don't think that is what Elder Nelson's talk was about, I think it was directly in response to the "saved by grace no matter what you do" attitude of many in traditional Christianity. I think this quote clarifies what Elder Nelson was saying:

(Russell M. Nelson,

[O-Brother]

But even the wicked can repent and be forgiven. So yes, God loves the wicked too. In the judgement, I think it will go much less well for the wicked as compared to sinners according to your definition.

Sinners can repent and change. That's the purpose of our lives here on this planet. However, there are people who are so wicked (I provided examples of mass killers responsible for the deaths of MILLIONs) who are beyond the point of return. You cannot repent of murdering 10 innocent people. There is no forgiveness for that in this life or the life to come. That's scripture. Correct me if I am wrong. I believe that what you said above is right, as far as the Judgment is concerned but consider that this life is the time to prepare.

"

[O-Brother]

O-Brother:

No God does not hate the sinner. He hates the sin, and yes I am all to aware of the evil that men do.

That's not what we're discussing. We're talking about the wicked and not just sinners. We all know God loves the sinner. Wicked is a different group of people. Examples provided a few times.

[O-Brother]

Why is this thread still going? I thought it was pretty definitively settled in post #21 with President Uchtdorf's talk from this last GC. God does, in fact, love even the wicked.

No, He doesn't. Sorry. All scripture seems to point out that He will DESTROY the wicked. He doesn't want them anywhere near Him and especially at the Last Day. In fact, if you read about the Second coming of Christ, the wicked will be consumed by unquenchable fire. Dozens of scriptures mention the destruction of the wicked. I am talking about their spiritual destruction. Now consider the meaning of the word LOVE. Study it and then constrast it with wiping out your own children because they're wicked. Perhaps then you will understand what I mean. Love becomes "Loved" People keep quoting "for GOD so LOVE(D) the world that He senT..." Does He Love the wicked now? The wicked are killing children everywhere. They're shedding innocent blood and you're saying that God LOVES them anyway. The Flood came for a lot less. Anyway. Just a thought. You don't have to agree and I don't expect you to and I think I understand why you wouldn't agree with me on this topic. It's just a discussions and I am sorry if I sound like an absolutist but I am just expressing how I see it. I also admit that I could be dead wrong on this and I don't see any convincing argument, except for one other brother here. I am studying what he's posting because he's coming pretty close to showing me where my logic might be faulty.

[Tsuzuki]

Look at them. Do you see why it was mentioned earlier that they have become the children of the Devil? Many of them even look the part.

What do you mean by that?

[Jason]

O-Brother, destroying the wicked is not incompatible with loving them.

If my children went on a killing spree, I could stop them with lethal force and still say truthfully that I loved them.

God's love truly is unconditional.