Does God Love The Wicked?

[O-Brother]

O-Brother, destroying the wicked is not incompatible with loving them.

If my children went on a killing spree, I could stop them with lethal force and still say truthfully that I loved them.

God's love truly is unconditional.

You could, but you're not God.

Divine Love Is Also Conditional

"While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional. The word does not appear in the scriptures. On the other hand, many verses affirm that the higher levels of love the Father and the Son feel for each of us

[handys003]

O-Brother your voting poll shows 24 yes votes. All the others el zippo! Seems like your barking up a tree with your case so far!

[Tsuzuki]

O-Brother your voting poll shows 24 yes votes. All the others el zippo! Seems like your barking up a tree with your case so far!

If O-Brother voted, that means he voted yes.

[O-Brother]

O-Brother your voting poll shows 24 yes votes. All the others el zippo! Seems like your barking up a tree with your case so far!

Psalm 5:5 (King James Version)

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

That doesn't bother me. I think I understand those votes now. Regards.

P.S. - I never voted on my poll. By the way, I don't think I'm welcome on this board. God bless and good night.

[handys003]

Psalm 5:5 (King James Version)

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

That doesn't bother me. I think I understand those votes now. Regards.

P.S. - I never voted on my poll. By the way, I don't think I'm welcome on this board. God bless and good night.

I never vote on my polls either and your always welcome on this board. LOL! What did you expect everyone to chime in to your line of thought? It's a discussion board everyone is right in their world. Bruddah I've even been called a racist by one retard! Just don't take it so serious and have fun! Besides I think you like the rest of us like this bantering underneath it all. Aloha

BTW did you get your handle from the movie?

[DH]

Of course God loves them--He loves everybody! I think many of the wicked will not have to be cast out, they won't want to be with Him, anyway. Those that refuse to leave, God may cast out in order to protect His other children, but not because He doesn't love the wicked.

DH

[O-Brother]

I never vote on my polls either and your always welcome on this board. LOL! What did you expect everyone to chime in to your line of thought? It's a discussion board everyone is right in their world. Bruddah I've even been called a racist by one retard! Just don't take it so serious and have fun! Besides I think you like the rest of us like this bantering underneath it all. Aloha

BTW did you get your handle from the movie?

FYI. I didn't expect anyone to chime in, as you put it, to my line of thought but to consider the dozens of scritpures supporting it. I expected a little better understanding of scripture but I think I figured things out and no the handle didn't come from any movie. I came up with it myself as I am able to create my own things instead of imitating everyone else.

Do you believe Brigham Young was a Prophet of God? Let me quote a couple of things that he said which might apply to this discussion:

"I do not wish any Latter-day Saint in this world, nor in heaven, to be satisfied with anything I do, unless the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, the spirit of revelation, makes them satisfied...Suppose that the people were heedless, that they manifested no concern with regard to the things of the kingdom of God, but threw the whole burden upon the leaders of the people, saying, 'If the brethren who take charge of matters are satisfied, we are,' this is not pleasing in the sight of the Lord." (JD 3:45)

And...

"What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually." (JD 9:150)

Since you're satisfied that God loves the wicked - no scriptural base for this whatsoever - not the world, not the righteous, not the sinner but the wicked I examplified in past posts, the likes of Bundy, Hitler, Saddam, child killers, Stalin, etc., then, there is little I can do to debate discuss it otherwise. Elder Rusell M. Nelso also declared that God's love is CONDITIONAL. Why some folks seem to disagree with him and the concept is vague.

I can see some type of the mental conditioning to think that God loves the wicked. It comes from not understanding who the wicked are and God's wrath - not love - upon them. I can see some sort of utopian misconception about Heavenly Father in regards to the wicked.

It would be appropriate to analyze where this notion comes from and what substantiates it. Scriptures do support my "line of thought" and I am pleased with that. Perhaps I see God differently than 24 others and I am pleased with that as well. I'm not a crowd follower and majority of votes can be wrong at times. An example of that is our past election. What appeared to be so right, has actually proven to be awfully wrong.

As Brigham Young CLEARLY stated above, I see things for myself, by the revelations of Jesus. You do believe what Brigham Young said, right? Lest you think he's been overriden over time. Truth is truth. Truth is also eternal. That's what I believe. If I am wrong, I will find out. But I'd rather err on the side of ignorance than to ignore obvious scriptures that are smack in front of me.

Again, Psalms 5:5 "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity." (King James Version)

Why ignore scripture? That I don't understand. Anyway. Anything beyond this to explain my point of view will become vitriolic and prone to sarcasm about my handle.

[Lightbearer]

Psalm 5:5 (King James Version)

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

That doesn't bother me. I think I understand those votes now. Regards.

P.S. - I never voted on my poll. By the way, I don't think I'm welcome on this board. God bless and good night.

Know this that you will always be welcome on this board as far as I am concerned and although we may not see eye to eye on this point, you have brought up some interesting points to ponder. I have always thought it was difficult to "hate the sin, but love the sinner" especially when they refuse to repent. Sometimes in our finite minds it is hard to separate the two. I think how it might work is that the love of God is always available if we choose to repent, but when we go beyond the point of no return (and I agree there is such a point) as with those who become sons of perdition then I think that is when they are "outside of" the love of God. I suppose that is the reason God has told us:

(D&C 64:7-14) "Nevertheless, he has sinned; but verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, forgive sins unto those who confess their sins before me and ask forgiveness, who have not sinned unto death. My disciples, in days of old, sought occasion against one another and forgave not one another in their hearts; and for this evil they were afflicted and sorely chastened. Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin. I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men. And ye ought to say in your hearts

[O-Brother]

Know this that you will always be welcome on this board as far as I am concerned and although we may not see eye to eye on this point, you have brought up some interesting points to ponder.

And that's all I wanted to do. Thank you for understanding.

I have always thought it was difficult to "hate the sin, but love the sinner" especially when they refuse to repent.

The key word you used here is "refuse" - It is my belief that when we refuse to heed God's commandment, He, being a just God, will punish us accordingly. Satan did refuse. Satan REFUSED to follow God's directives. When we do the same thing, we become "wicked", in a sense. If we proceed to the point of shedding innocent blood, which has been my topic here from the beginning, then we're doomed. That's my view. It's scripturally based. I am not making this up. No forgiveness in this life or the life to come. Did Satan and his followers 'cease' to be God's children upon expulsion? Are they God's children NOW? Have they been disowned as such? If I say they're still God's children and God loves the wicked, it seems to create a theological conflict.

Sometimes in our finite minds it is hard to separate the two. I think how it might work is that the love of God is always available if we choose to repent, but when we go beyond the point of no return (and I agree there is such a point) as with those who become sons of perdition then I think that is when they are "outside of" the love of God.

There you go. My thoughts exactly!!

I suppose that is the reason God has told us:I think the difference here made is that God knows all things therefore He can see further than we can and thus His love and His justice and His mercy are perfect, we are only seeking to be. So I think the love of God can only extend as far as we through our actions will allow it.

Precisely. Example, when a wicked man sheds innocent blood of one or more persons, the Love of God then becomes the JUSTICE of God. The Law takes over and justice demands that those evil people be doomed. I think Alma (a few posts back) clearly explained that as well when he mentions the blood of the innocent serving as a witness

against the wicked.

If we choose evil and altogether abide in sin we separate ourselves from God's love.

Yes.

Not that God's love for us ceases but because we place ourselves beyond the feeling of His love.

In my view, it ceases for the wicked but not for the repentant. Think of it this way, if the love continued, He'd be thinking and worrying about the doomed for eternity and I believe He won't. God's words are final. However, I could be wrong in this regard.

This is the case I believe with the Sons of perdition. Because they are without hope of forgiveness they are unable to be loved by God. I had a thought that the reason there are degrees of glory is because of that very same reason.

Yes, again, brother! There is segregation in the Heavens. Every person goes where he or she belongs and according to their status. Sounds crazy but it's obvious. The righteous go to Heaven, so to speak and the rest go where they belong. "In my Father's House there are MANY mansions..." Not to mention the concept of great and noble ones which implies that there were some that were neither great nor noble. True? The world just wants one big happy family. That's going to be the shocker, in my opinion.

So much so that Jesus was the "greatest of all" implying degrees of stature. I've often wondered why I couldn't sing like Pavarotti. Now I know. (:-)

We distance ourselves from the love of God (Lehi's dream) by our own actions according to our works. The fact that one is punished for one's sins (as in those who receive a lesser kingdom) and specifically those who suffer in hell before being resurrected is a manifestation of God's love:Notice that the Lord chastens those that He loves... and although it does state that he hates the Lamanites (because of their deeds have been evil continually) yet He still must love them to prolong their days so that they might repent.

He gives them a chance in this life to do all their labors. Yes. Agreed 100%. You explain this much better than I could.

I think the same exists in the spirit world, that hell or spirit prison there is more of a chastening punishment, so that they will repent. While those who are totally lost (sons of perdition) are truly separated from the love of God and that ultimately is their punishment which is so dreadful. Just some thoughts on the subject.

Hope to see you back on the board soon,

I am in agreement with everything you took the time to think through. In the spirit world, Hitler MIGHT feel sorry for his deeds on earth and say that the Devil took over him, which could have been true as the Devil is known to deceive leaders. Now, as he is doomed and he will be, we don't know where he will end up. Just like there are several degrees of glory, there may be several "Kingdoms of Doom" - a good movie title, no? -

[Jason]

You could, but you're not God.

So you are saying that I have a greater capacity to love than God does?

"While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional. The word does not appear in the scriptures. On the other hand, many verses affirm that the higher levels of love the Father and the Son feel for each of us

[O-Brother]

So you are saying that I have a greater capacity to love than God does?

No.

Elder Nelson is not saying that God doesn't love the wicked. Rather he is saying that God will not grant everyone the same blessings out of His love for them, and that God and Jesus have higher love and more blessings for the obedient than for the disobedient. To reiterate, he is not saying that God has no love for the disobedient.

We're talking about the wicked, not the disobedient. Most of us are disobedient to a point.

Psalms 5:5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight;

You hate all workers of iniquity.

That's where we disagree. I believe God has no love for the wicked. The love was there up to the point where they shed innocent blood. At that point, the wicked are cast out and forgotten forever. That's my position on this issue. You're welcome to disagree. I can't convince you otherwise and apparently the scriptures can't either.

I disagree. "Whom the Lord loves, He chasteneth" can be extended to "whom the Lord loves, He destroys."

Chasteneth is not the same as detroying. The quote above has nothing to do with the topic. It's talking about God's chastising us so we can repent. If you go and shed

innocent blood, you will quickly realize that the chastening part is no longer applicable to you.

Yes, God still loves that individual, just as He still loves those who He will destroy with unquenchable fire at the Second Coming.

Nope. Does God LOVE (present tense) Satan? What do you think?

Again, and the point you seem to fail to comprehend - destroying someone does not mean that you don't love them.

IF you go out now, drive your car over a family member "on purpose" and over a disagreement, meaning, you're being evil, you will be condemned by the laws of men. And you will also be condenmend, according to scriptures, in the life to come. On the other hand, if it was a pure accident, God's love will be with you because there would be nothing to repent of or be condemned for. I think you're failing to understand the simplicity of God's justice while dwelling on utopian concepts.

God loves the Devil too, and all of Satan's fallen legions. I'm sure their betrayal has caused Him a great deal of pain, and casting them to Outer Darkness is not something He will enjoy in any way.

Sounds like your personal opinion. Where is the scripture that shows that God LOVES (present tense) the Devil and his angels? That's vagary. Dreamland.

No, it is more accurate to say that Elder Nelson was saying that Jesus loves and blesses those who love him more than he loves and blesses those who do not love him. He died for all of them - wicked and good - and all but a very few of the wicked will be resurrected and receive a degree of glory.

We're talking about the wicked. According to scripture, there will be no degree of glory for them. They will be cast out into outer darkness. I already showed you the

scripture to suppor this. Not sure why you don't comment on the scripture. But here it is AGAIN:

"But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Mathew 8:12

It would be nice if you can substantiate your assessment with scripture rather than personal opinion.

You are misquoting. The text says nothing about not loving those that His wrath will be exercised on - that is your assumption.

It says nothing about loving them either. The wrath of God will cast them out permanently, not his love.

Does not say that He does not love the wicked, merely that He will destroy them, which I fully acknowledge. Your other references are no different.

Psalms 5:5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight;

You hate all workers of iniquity.

O-Brother, you apparently do not understand the interaction between divine and perfect love, justice, and mercy that God exercises upon His children. God does indeed love the wicked, and in part that is why He exercises justice on them and will destroy them if they do not repent.

On the contrary, I think I understand it clearly. Perfect love demands justice and God does not love the wicked, in my opinion. But I think you keep referring to the wicked as sinners and I already illustrated the types of wicked people I've been referring to since the topic was opened. You will sound more convincing if you can

provide scriptures to support your analogies instead of making generic, secular statements. There are many more scriptures that support my point of view on this subject. If you tell anyone you love them but that you will destroy them anyway, your love is no longer present. A more convincing way to present your opinion would be:

"I used to love you but now I have to cast you into a furnace of fire. Feel my love?" It makes no sense, does it?

Matthew 13:39-42 - The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. :40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. :41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; :42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Isaiah 1:28 - And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed.

Jude 13 - Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

John 3:16, 36 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. :36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Can you see? the Wrath of God abideth on him. This means no love, but wrath. It can't get more self-explanatory than this, can it?

WRATH:

Synonyms:

acrimony, asperity, boiling point, conniption, dander, displeasure, exasperation, flare-up, fury, hate, hatefulness, huff, indignation, ire, irritation, mad, madness, offense, passion, rage, resentment, rise, stew, storm, temper, vengeance

Antonyms:

happiness, love

Wrath is not Love. Hence Psalms 5:5. Pretty clear, isn't it? It is to me.

[Jason]

O-Brother, placing everything in your post in quote blocks actually makes it much more difficult to quote from your post. Please try to avoid that.

The scriptural reference I have for God loving the wicked is President Uchtdorf's talk in the last General Conference. I do not feel that it contradicts Elder Nelson's earlier talk, and even if it did, in keeping with "line upon line", President Uchtdorf's more recent speech should take precedence. It is the most recent revelation we have on the subject.

Do you believe President Uchtdorf was not inspired when he made this statement? Why did President Monson allow it to stand in the speech then? Or do you believe President Monson also has a mistaken impression on this matter?

Yes, the psalmist does in some cases seem to say that God does dislike the wicked. The psalmist is speaking poetically, of course. God does not literally "hate" workers of iniquity, but will not support them and will punish them. God doesn't really want us to literally fear Him either, by the way.

Does God presently love Satan? Yes, I believe He does.

No, I have no specific scriptural support for that opinion. I do have the general support of all of the texts that speak of God's love towards all of His children, of whom Satan is one.

Your constant harping on the fact that God will destroy the wicked is not proving your case. I fully acknowledge that God will do so, but disagree that this requires that God hate them. Further appeals to such texts will not support your point in my eyes.

[O-Brother]

O-Brother, placing everything in your post in quote blocks actually makes it much more difficult to quote from your post. Please try to avoid that.

The scriptural reference I have for God loving the wicked is President Uchtdorf's talk in the last General Conference. I do not feel that it contradicts Elder Nelson's earlier talk, and even if it did, in keeping with "line upon line", President Uchtdorf's more recent speech should take precedence. It is the most recent revelation we have on the subject.

Do you believe President Uchtdorf was not inspired when he made this statement? Why did President Monson allow it to stand in the speech then? Or do you believe President Monson also has a mistaken impression on this matter?

Yes, the psalmist does in some cases seem to say that God does dislike the wicked. The psalmist is speaking poetically, of course. God does not literally "hate" workers of iniquity, but will not support them and will punish them. God doesn't really want us to literally fear Him either, by the way.

Does God presently love Satan? Yes, I believe He does.

No, I have no specific scriptural support for that opinion. I do have the general support of all of the texts that speak of God's love towards all of His children, of whom Satan is one.

Your constant harping on the fact that God will destroy the wicked is not proving your case. I fully acknowledge that God will do so, but disagree that this requires that God hate them. Further appeals to such texts will not support your point in my eyes.

Sorry about the format. I'm multitasking here.

I believe Brother Uchtdorf meant "sinners". You will need to ask him. Speaking several languages has a tendency to get words mixed up. If he, indeed meant the wicked,

he most likely meant people who are unrepentant and that's what missionary work is for. To reach out to them. I do not believe that he meant the class of wicked as Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, Bundy and others. That's the wicked I've been referring to all along. That's how I take his talk.

A big statement like God loves Satan requires supportive scripture, don't you think?

You obviously ignored the last scripture from my last statement and the dictionary definition of wrath. That clearly supports and defines my position. You simply choose to ignore it. That's fine with me.

Anyway, gotta go back to work. Regards.

[Jason]

I believe Brother Uchtdorf meant "sinners". You will need to ask him. Speaking several languages has a tendency to get words mixed up. If he, indeed meant the wicked,

he most likely meant people who are unrepentant and that's what missionary work is for. To reach out to them. I do not believe that he meant the class of wicked as Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, Bundy and others. That's the wicked I've been referring to all along. That's how I take his talk.

There are two problems with this idea:

1) "sinner" and "wicked" are quite distinct words in German as well as in Enlgish. There is no reason to suppose that President Uchtdorf selected the wrong English word for a German thought. In fact, there is no reason to suppose that President Uchtdorf wasn't thinking in English when he wrote the talk, as he is quite fluent.

2) President Uchtdorf's talk was carefully reviewed by native English-speaking GAs before he gave it in conference, but they didn't find anything wrong with saying "God loves the wicked."

A big statement like God loves Satan requires supportive scripture, don't you think?

No, I don't. I find the idea that God does not love Satan - one of His children - to be the more extraordinary claim, requiring support before I will accept it.

You obviously ignored the last scripture from my last statement and the dictionary definition of wrath. That clearly supports and defines my position. You simply choose to ignore it. That's fine with me.

Dictionaries are seldom useful in determining more than the general sense of a word. They cannot be used to argue specifics in this fashion.

Also, you can be angry at someone you still love.

Hypothetical:

I have three children who I love as a father loves his children. Matt, the oldest, falls into a bad crowd. We do our best to try to guide him gently back to us and to see that his current friends are not doing him any good. Eventually he comes to hate me and his family as obstacles between he and his new friends. One day he enters our home with a shotgun, determined to kill my other two children.

As it happens I have a handgun, and seeing no choice I draw and use my handgun to kill him before he can kill my other children.

The question: does this action (killing him to save others) require me to hate Matt?

[Thorkyll]

Of course God hates the wicked. Why would He love them? They will have no place in the hereafter.

The problem is that good people have been indoctrinated by the Christian Church to think of

themselves as 'wicked' because of original sin and the Protestant idea of the total depravity of man.

[handys003]

FYI. I didn't expect anyone to chime in, as you put it, to my line of thought but to consider the dozens of Scriptures supporting it. I expected a little better understanding of scripture but I think I figured things out and no the handle didn't come from any movie. I came up with it myself as I am able to create my own things instead of imitating everyone else.

Do you believe Brigham Young was a Prophet of God? Let me quote a couple of things that he said which might apply to this discussion:

"I do not wish any Latter-day Saint in this world, nor in heaven, to be satisfied with anything I do, unless the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, the spirit of revelation, makes them satisfied...Suppose that the people were heedless, that they manifested no concern with regard to the things of the kingdom of God, but threw the whole burden upon the leaders of the people, saying, 'If the brethren who take charge of matters are satisfied, we are,' this is not pleasing in the sight of the Lord." (JD 3:45)

And...

"What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually." (JD 9:150)

Since you're satisfied that God loves the wicked - no scriptural base for this whatsoever - not the world, not the righteous, not the sinner but the wicked I exemplified in past posts, the likes of Bundy, Hitler, Saddam, child killers, Stalin, etc., then, there is little I can do to debate discuss it otherwise. Elder Rusell M. Nelso also declared that God's love is CONDITIONAL. Why some folks seem to disagree with him and the concept is vague.

I can see some type of the mental conditioning to think that God loves the wicked. It comes from not understanding who the wicked are and God's wrath - not love - upon them. I can see some sort of utopian misconception about Heavenly Father in regards to the wicked.

It would be appropriate to analyze where this notion comes from and what substantiates it. Scriptures do support my "line of thought" and I am pleased with that. Perhaps I see God differently than 24 others and I am pleased with that as well. I'm not a crowd follower and majority of votes can be wrong at times. An example of that is our past election. What appeared to be so right, has actually pr oven to be awfully wrong.

As Brigham Young CLEARLY stated above, I see things for myself, by the revelations of Jesus. You do believe what Brigham Young said, right? Lest you think he's been overridden over time. Truth is truth. Truth is also eternal. That's what I believe. If I am wrong, I will find out. But I'd rather err on the side of ignorance than to ignore obvious scriptures that are smack in front of me.

Again, Psalms 5:5 "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hardest all workers of iniquity." (King James Version)

Why ignore scripture? That I don't understand. Anyway. Anything beyond this to explain my point of view will become vitriolic and prone to sarcasm about my handle.

Prophets of God are not infallible. BY I support as prophet, revelator, and seer, but as with any man I reserve my judgment based on testimony of the Holy Ghost finalizing what is said is true. Whereas I know some things that are rev elated for the church may have it's purpose some are influenced by that persons prejudices. BY, like you and myself and others all have that prejudices. When I raise my han to support the GA's it means just that to support even if it feels wrong. It has been put in perspective that things done by the Lord has it's own purpose even if the revelation is faulty. It is just as much for them to learn as myself. Everything that we do on this planet is a classroom to better exalt ourselves. This is what Christ has been trying to endear to everyone as this plain (earth) of existence is a far cry from our true home. BY (moon men) showed his faults as do we all. Christ laid down the law of forgiveness as I quoted to you earlier. You and myself along all others must forgive and you can only do that with love. If you cannot forgive yourself and those others you will not be forgiven by the father. It does not mean that he doesn't love you he hurts for everyone of his children or else this whole PoS falls through if he cannot lead by example. You can cite much scripture, but the main man, Jesus Christ himself laid down the rule and it precedents any scripture. The Holy Ghost testifies to me to love my fellow men even if they do wrong. That does not mean trying not to stop them, but it's only God's decision on how he loves them, and no mortal man by any revelation can counter that claim.

I understand your hate toward those villains like Hitler, etc... Who normally wouldn't, but when you step back to think he was one of our brothers, who was given life by our father. When I step back to think how would his life have been different if he had been given true Christlike love. We failed him and ourselves as well as he failed us. In the spirit world in which he no doubt is in the prison version he will get the chance to redeem himself. Why shouldn't we forgive him? I'm have no doubt the crimes committed against the victims have major issues, but it is for them to learn and grow also. I have no doubt that the victims who are now living in the Spirit world don't give a damn about this plain of existence on earth now. They are having an exalted experience that make life here trivial. Apparently you must think they are there crying woe is me! Believe me they are probably thanking HF I'm off this train. I know I can't wait as my wife, but HF testifies that we have to put up with the mortal worlds crap for a while longer. We still have things to do and learn. Hate, fear are negative attributes in this plain of existence we must rid ourselves of such. If we really and truly believe in forgiveness then we shall never fear death on this existence and no person on this planet can own you ever! Our true HF awaits us and I never want to carry hate , revenge, or any kind of fear with me to endure for eternity. I truly hope you let go of your hate. God's decision of love is his problem and not yours. My bruddah just let it go and learn to love everyone no matter how idiotic they may seem or wicked. Free yourself and let HF handle it. He as always allowed wicked men to destroy each other with wickedness and that my bruddah is a lesson in itself for us to learn. If you cannot grasp this then I feel for you. I do have much love for you and do hope you get my surmise. I'm done for the night as I must travel to temple for Youth baptisms and pick up the youth before traveling 50 miles.

Aoha!

[O-Brother]

There are two problems with this idea:

1) "sinner" and "wicked" are quite distinct words in German as well as in Enlgish. There is no reason to suppose that President Uchtdorf selected the wrong English word for a German thought. In fact, there is no reason to suppose that President Uchtdorf wasn't thinking in English when he wrote the talk, as he is quite fluent.

2) President Uchtdorf's talk was carefully reviewed by native English-speaking GAs before he gave it in conference, but they didn't find anything wrong with saying "God loves the wicked."

No, I don't. I find the idea that God does not love Satan - one of His children - to be the more extraordinary claim, requiring support before I will accept it.

Dictionaries are seldom useful in determining more than the general sense of a word. They cannot be used to argue specifics in this fashion.

Also, you can be angry at someone you still love.

Hypothetical:

I have three children who I love as a father loves his children. Matt, the oldest, falls into a bad crowd. We do our best to try to guide him gently back to us and to see that his current friends are not doing him any good. Eventually he comes to hate me and his family as obstacles between he and his new friends. One day he enters our home with a shotgun, determined to kill my other two children.

As it happens I have a handgun, and seeing no choice I draw and use my handgun to kill him before he can kill my other children.

The question: does this action (killing him to save others) require me to hate Matt?

When you are able to provide at least a few scriptures to support your view of doctrine, I think we can have a more productive discussion. Right now you're simply giving us your personal opinion on how you see things, which I respect but your arguments are weak without scriptural basis. It's important to make a clear distinction between just being a sinner and being wicked/evil beyond a point of no return.

[O-Brother]

Of course God hates the wicked. Why would He love them? They will have no place in the hereafter.

The problem is that good people have been indoctrinated by the Christian Church to think of

themselves as 'wicked' because of original sin and the Protestant idea of the total depravity of man.

I agree. People have a hard time understanding the difference between being one of the wicked and just being a sinner or living in disobedience. A wicked person

can hang you upside down, cut your wrists and watch you bleed to death while he laughs at you. (I didn't make this up, thousands of people have been killed in this manner) Other wicked people will simply kill you and put your head in the fridge. (Dahmer). Others will drown their own children and blame it on some black person or the Devil. Others will put you through a wood shredder (Saddam) or have all prisoners executed to free up prison space. (Saddan's sons.) The list goes on. It's a big list of wickedness and wicked people. We tend to be very naive about the wicked, until it hits us. The latest events are proof of wickedness and cold blood. These types of wicked men (Notice that most of them are males) will burn and be cast out. These men have become the children of the Devil and therefore are in direct opposition to God. Pretty much like the could have been in their pre-mortal state during the War In Heaven.

[O-Brother]

Prophets of God are not infallible. BY I support as prophet, revelator, and seer, but as with any man I reserve my judgment based on testimony of the Holy Ghost finalizing what is said is true.

I agree. That's how it should be or we wouldn't be excercising our intelligence and personal revelations. Someone else would be doing all the thinking for us. BY didn't see this as pleasing unto the Lord.

Whereas I know some things that are rev elated for the church may have it's purpose some are influenced by that persons prejudices. BY, like you and myself and others all have that prejudices. When I raise my han to support the GA's it means just that to support even if it feels wrong.

I only raise my hand if I feel right about it. Nothing is robotic. 99.9% of the time I raise my hand because I already know the character of whom I'm supporting.

It has been put in perspective that things done by the Lord has it's own purpose even if the revelation is faulty. It is just as much for them to learn as myself. Everything that we do on this planet is a classroom to better exalt ourselves. This is what Christ has been trying to endear to everyone as this plain (earth) of existence is a far cry from our true home. BY (moon men) showed his faults as do we all. Christ laid down the law of forgiveness as I quoted to you earlier. You and myself along all others must forgive and you can only do that with love. If you cannot forgive yourself and those others you will not be forgiven by the father. It does not mean that he doesn't love you he hurts for everyone of his children or else this whole PoS falls through if he cannot lead by example. You can cite much scripture, but the main man, Jesus Christ himself laid down the rule and it precedents any scripture. The Holy Ghost testifies to me to love my fellow men even if they do wrong. That does not mean trying not to stop them, but it's only God's decision on how he loves them, and no mortal man by any revelation can counter that claim.

You can't go wrong when you follow Jesus Christ.

I understand your hate toward those villains like Hitler, etc... Who normally wouldn't, but when you step back to think he was one of our brothers, who was given life by our father. When I step back to think how would his life have been different if he had been given true Christlike love. We failed him and ourselves as well as he failed us. In the spirit world in which he no doubt is in the prison version he will get the chance to redeem himself.

There will be no redemption for Hitler. He's doomed. I don't hate the man. He was and will forever be disgusting. I have some theories on why he was given mortality but that's a different topic.

Why shouldn't we forgive him?

Because he didn't do anything to us. THere is no need to forgive him on our part. He's beyond our scope.

I'm have no doubt the crimes committed against the victims have major issues, but it is for them to learn and grow also. I have no doubt that the victims who are now living in the Spirit world don't give a damn about this plain of existence on earth now. They are having an exalted experience that make life here trivial. Apparently you must think they are there crying woe is me!

Yes, they are. Read ALMA about the innocent, who are killed and who cry unto the Lord for justice. Their mortal experience was interrupted so I don't believe that they're all happy. No man has the right to interrupt a life that God gave. This opens up another can of worms, doesn't it? Capital punishment. Abortion, murder, etc.

Believe me they are probably thanking HF I'm off this train. I know I can't wait as my wife, but HF testifies that we have to put up with the mortal worlds crap for a while longer. We still have things to do and learn. Hate, fear are negative attributes in this plain of existence we must rid ourselves of such. If we really and truly believe in forgiveness then we shall never fear death on this existence and no person on this planet can own you ever! Our true HF awaits us and I never want to carry hate , revenge, or any kind of fear with me to endure for eternity. I truly hope you let go of your hate. God's decision of love is his problem and not yours. My bruddah just let it go and learn to love everyone no matter how idiotic they may seem or wicked. Free yourself and let HF handle it. He as always allowed wicked men to destroy each other with wickedness and that my bruddah is a lesson in itself for us to learn. If you cannot grasp this then I feel for you. I do have much love for you and do hope you get my surmise. I'm done for the night as I must travel to temple for Youth baptisms and pick up the youth before traveling 50 miles.

Aoha!

I have no hate, brother. Where did you get that impression? My position on the wicked, perhaps? I'm only going by what the scriptures say. Look, God has wrath and anger. So do we but I have no hate. I am simply stating that

according to scripture, the wicked will be doomed. I also think God doesn't love them after a certain point. That's all. When you stop and think about all the atrocities that they committed against HF's innocent, you can clearly see how God's justice will be swift as the scriptures indicate. We live in a society now where little thought is giveb to the victims of atrocities and evil men. So I am glad to see that God is a just God. Or else we'd be living in some form of theological utopia.

Enjoy the Temple.

I've got so many things to do and I've probably spent way to much time typing away here but it's good mental exercise and help me remember scriptures I had forgotten about.