Does God Love The Wicked?

[divinenature]

O-Brother, I don't think there is a scripture that specifically says "God loves the wicked." You are right about that. It is just the theme of all of the scriptures which everyone seems to agree since we all answered the poll the same way.

But we do know that God is love and God so loved the WORLD that he sent his Only Begotten. So, when the scriptures say "the world" is there anyone excluded from that? Of course not!

What people believe about God says more about them then it does about him, IMHO.

John 3:16

[O-Brother]

Perhaps this casting out will be the casting out of pain, confusion, and disease of the mind and soul. This purging will probably be very painful.

I'm willing to guess that Ted's temple work has been done. We all know Hitler's has. Do they not have the same opportunity to embrace the Atonement?

God's purpose is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of mankind. I'm betting he is a success. He loves us that much.

Amen

So, If I'm a Holocaust victim, all 1.5 6.0 Million of us, I am to believe that Hitler will not be punished for what he did and that his wickedness is forgiven? The blood

of the innocent will not cry from the earth to avenge justice?

[Jason]

Question: Is our world the same in glory at the telestial or terrestral kingdom of glory?

"And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;"

Does our world "surpass all understanding" in glory?

[O-Brother]

O-Brother, I don't think there is a scripture that specifically says "God loves the wicked." You are right about that. It is just the theme of all of the scriptures which everyone seems to agree since we all answered the poll the same way.

But we do know that God is love and God so loved the WORLD that he sent his Only Begotten. So, when the scriptures say "the world" is there anyone excluded from that? Of course not!

What people believe about God says more about them then it does about him, IMHO.

John 3:16

[divinenature]

So, If I'm a Holocaust victim, all 1.5 6.0 Million of us, I am to believe that Hitler will not be punished for what he did and that his wickedness is forgiven? The blood

of the innocent will not cry from the earth to avenge justice?

A Holocaust victim is free to believe what they wish. I'm more interested in what you think. Why does the LDS church do the temple work for Hitler? It has been done multiple times.

Personally, I think he very likely is experiencing some unpleasant consequences right now. But, according to LDS theology he could very well have embraced his temple work and be in the happy spirit waiting area.

Is the Atonment limited in its scope? Can it not save Hitler? Is Christ's blood not payment enough?

[Jason]

So, If I'm a Holocaust victim, all 1.5 6.0 Million of us, I am to believe that Hitler will not be punished for what he did and that his wickedness is forgiven? The blood

of the innocent will not cry from the earth to avenge justice?

The man killed himself and has been suffering terribly in spirit prison ever since.

What more do you want? More importantly, what more is justice without crossing over the line to vengeance?

[O-Brother]

Yes. He loves Laban, Stalin, etc.

Scripture to suppor that? Where does it say that God loved Laban? All it says is that he should be killed and that he would be delivered into Nephi's hands, who chopped his head off. Obviously there is nothing on Stalin. Too much modern history.

[O-Brother]

The man killed himself and has been suffering terribly in spirit prison ever since.

What more do you want? More importantly, what more is justice without crossing over the line to vengeance?

Many wicked people kill themselves, such as the COlumbine killers, Hitler, etc. That doesn't answer the question about God loving the wicked. Sorry. It's not what I want. If you don't know the answer that's OK but your answer is not satisfactory because it doesn't answer the question, it dances around it with generalities. I will just pose the question one more time to be perfectly clear: Where in the scripture does it say that God loves the wicked? Point me to that and I will shut up, I promise. I need that scripture for an ongoing discussion. If I don't find that scritpure, I have no substantiation for the argument that God may or does love the wicked, never has and never will because Satan is wicked and God doesn't love him and evil people will be cast out and shun from his presence. There is no degree of allowance towards sin or wickedness, therefore, no degree of allowance towards the wicked? No?

[Jason]

You have the word of a prophet of God - President Uchtdorf - that God loves the wicked. It's even written down.

What is scripture except the written word of a prophet?

[O-Brother]

You have the word of a prophet of God - President Uchtdorf - that God loves the wicked. It's even written down.

What is scripture except the written word of a prophet?

Thomas S. Monson is our Prophet, no? Are you saying then, it's doctrine and scripture that God loves the wicked because Brother Uchtdorf made that statement in the

Ensign and in Church Conference? If that's official Church doctrine, then the question is answered. I can just point out to the Ensign article and say that's our official opinion. Unless, of course, Brother Uchtdorf actually meant that God loves the sinner and since English is a second language for him, it's possible that he may have

gotten the two words mixed up. I speak several languages but German is not one of them. Maybe "wicked" in German translates into "sinner". If that's the case, then he has not declared any official doctrine with that statement in his talk.

[O-Brother]

Verse to ponder...

Ps. 26: 5

5 I have hated the congregation of evil doers; and will not sit with the wicked.

Ps. 34: 21

21 Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate.

Ps. 55: 3

3 Because of the voice of the enemy, because of the oppression of the wicked: for they cast iniquity upon me, and in wrath they hate me.

Ps. 97: 10

10 Ye that love the Lord, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.

Ps. 101: 3

3 I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me.

Prov. 14: 17

17 He that is soon angry dealeth foolishly: and a man of wicked devices is hated.

Thank you for taking the time to find these scriptures. Though we believe in continuing revelation, these scriptures seem to point out the fact that God does not love or is fond of the wicked. I think this one is almost clear about the Lord's or God's position about the wicked. I have hated the congregation of evil doers; and will not sit with the wicked. It doesn't say He loved/loves them. Thank You. Now if you can find one about loving the wicked!

[Zakuska]

No dice...

Ps. 97: 10

10 Ye that love the Lord, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.

Ps. 119: 119

119 Thou puttest away all the wicked of the earth like dross: therefore I love thy testimonies.

Ps. 145: 20

20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.

Jer. 2: 33

33 Why trimmest thou thy way to seek love? therefore hast thou also taught the wicked ones thy ways.

Jacob 7: 23

23 And it came to pass that peace and the love of God was restored again among the people; and they searched the scriptures, and hearkened no more to the words of this wicked man.

[handys003]

Many wicked people kill themselves, such as the Columbine killers, Hitler, etc. That doesn't answer the question about God loving the wicked. Sorry. It's not what I want. If you don't know the answer that's OK but your answer is not satisfactory because it doesn't answer the question, it dances around it with generalities. I will just pose the question one more time to be perfectly clear: Where in the scripture does it say that God loves the wicked? Point me to that and I will shut up, I promise. I need that scripture for an ongoing discussion. If I don't find that Scripture, I have no substantiation for the argument that God may or does love the wicked, never has and never will because Satan is wicked and God doesn't love him and evil people will be cast out and shun from his presence. There is no degree of allowance toward sin or wickedness, therefore, no degree of allowance toward the wicked? No?

1. 1 Jn. 4: 7, 11-12
2. 7 Beloved, let us ^a>love one another: for ^blove is of God; and every one that loveth is ^cborn of God, and knoweth God.
3. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
4. 12 ^aNo man hath ^b God at any time. If we love one another, ^{c d} in us, and his love is perfected in us.

34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye ^alove one another; as I have loved you, that ye also ^blove one another.

35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have ^alove one to another.

Matt. 6: 12, 14-15

12 And forgive us our ^adebts, as we ^b our debtors.

14 For if ye ^aforgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye ^aforgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mark 11: 25-26

25 And when ye stand ^apraying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may ^b you your trespasses.

26 But if ye do not ^aforgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

These are scriptures asking you to love and forgive the wicked as well as the good. Wickedness is relative to a perspective. A spouse's infidelity can be as wicked to the heart it betrays just as much as the Holocaust. It may seem less a tragedy in your eye as the Holocaust, but to the victim who was betrayed, it may seem the end of the world. Your HF commands you to forgive and love through the teachings of Christ. HF loves all his children, but it does not mean that he does not become angry with them. I love my children, but there are times from the stunts they pull I want to eat my young. I don't however as they must learn and grow therefore I love and forgive them. Unfortunately some children of the Lord never grow.

It is as you pointed out men like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Genghis Khan, The Crusades, etc... have done tragedy's in their glory. HF will judge them and do what is appropriate. We have our own man made justice as well. Evil will eventually be undone and brought before trial here on earth and in heaven. It is you who must decide how to grow. You can push on with love and forgiveness or be bitter with hate and revenge. However you will never receive exaltation if you carry the negative attitudes of revenge and hate with you. It will confine you to spirit prison just as much as Hitler.

Honestly do you think for one moment HF was not so enraged at his son's death that he at one point wanted to destroy men on this planet? IMO of course he was but at the same time it would defeat the POS and Lucifer would have won, and negated all that Christ suffered and endured. It is apparent that through Christs example to be like HF we must elevate ourselves from the very essence of evil that we can be. That is why we must love the wicked.

[O-Brother]

1. 1 Jn. 4: 7, 11-12
2. 7 Beloved, let us ^a>love one another: for ^blove is of God; and every one that loveth is ^cborn of God, and knoweth God.
3. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
4. 12 ^aNo man hath ^b God at any time. If we love one another, ^{c d} in us, and his love is perfected in us.

34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye ^alove one another; as I have loved you, that ye also ^blove one another.

35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have ^alove one to another.

Matt. 6: 12, 14-15

12 And forgive us our ^adebts, as we ^b our debtors.

14 For if ye ^aforgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye ^aforgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mark 11: 25-26

25 And when ye stand ^apraying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may ^b you your trespasses.

26 But if ye do not ^aforgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

These are scriptures asking you to love and forgive the wicked as well as the good. Wickedness is relative to a perspective. A spouse's infidelity can be as wicked to the heart it betrays just as much as the Holocaust. It may seem less a tragedy in your eye as the Holocaust, but to the victim who was betrayed, it may seem the end of the world. Your HF commands you to forgive and love through the teachings of Christ. HF loves all his children, but it does not mean that he does not become angry with them. I love my children, but there are times from the stunts they pull I want to eat my young. I don't however as they must learn and grow therefore I love and forgive them. Unfortunately some children of the Lord never grow.

It is as you pointed out men like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Genghis Khan, The Crusades, etc... have done tragedy's in their glory. HF will judge them and do what is appropriate. We have our own man made justice as well. Evil will eventually be undone and brought before trial here on earth and in heaven. It is you who must decide how to grow. You can push on with love and forgiveness or be bitter with hate and revenge. However you will never receive exaltation if you carry the negative attitudes of revenge and hate with you. It will confine you to spirit prison just as much as Hitler.

Honestly do you think for one moment HF was not so enraged at his son's death that he at one point wanted to destroy men on this planet? IMO of course he was but at the same time it would defeat the POS and Lucifer would have won, and negated all that Christ suffered and endured. It is apparent that through Christs example to be like HF we must elevate ourselves from the very essence of evil that we can be. That is why we must love the wicked.

You put a lot of thought into your reply. However, loving one another is the commandment given to us so we can get along, develop love and understanding and enjoy our association as human beings, children of God. None of the scriptures above say that God loves the wicked. Remember that wicked here is not the same as sinful. We all sin. Actually I agree with you that HF was so enraged (wrath of God if you will) that yes, he would destroy us until Jesus interceded for us and pleaded unto the Father that we be spared. Do you agree? There is no scripture that I know of that supports God's love for the wicked. However, the scriptures do tell us to love our enemies and do good to those who persecute us for Jesus's sake. Can enemies be wicked? Yes. We can love them and hope they will repent and cease to be wicked. But, the unswered questions is whether God loves the wicked. I don't think He does and I see no scripture that specifically says he loves them. Is Satan wicked? The answer is obviously yes. God doesn't love him (anymore) but at one point I think HF did. Also the 1/3 that were kicked out. But once they went beyond a point of no return, God's judgment upon them was final. THey were expelled forever. The likes of Hitler, who were probably influential in the pre-mortal life, were probably allowed to experience mortality to see if they would lead in righteousness but chose evil instead. A man with Hitler's talent could have led the world for good but he chose evil. We have leaders like that even in our present time. These are leaders in many countries who are responsible for the untimely death of countless innocent people, men, women and children. Does God love the wicked who shed innocent blood? Throughout the scritures, from Psalms, Proverbs, BOM & even D&C we clearly see that God despises the wicked and wickedness.

More specifically, take a look at the following scripture, from the NT:

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just... Matt 13:49

God is long-suffering and patient with us, including the wicked. But he doesn't love them.

Read Psalm 7:11

God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy. Psa 145:20

Fate of the wicked:

Revelation 20:9-10

9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[a] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Malachi 4:1-3

1

[O-Brother]

"And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;"

Does our world "surpass all understanding" in glory?

The above says nothing about the wicked. It just says that the telestial world surpasses all understanding. The general understanding among scholars here is that the telestial world is much better than our current earth, more glorious but it is away from the presence of God.

[O-Brother]

No dice...

Ps. 97: 10

10 Ye that love the Lord, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.

Ps. 119: 119

119 Thou puttest away all the wicked of the earth like dross: therefore I love thy testimonies.

Ps. 145: 20

20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.

Jer. 2: 33

33 Why trimmest thou thy way to seek love? therefore hast thou also taught the wicked ones thy ways.

Jacob 7: 23

23 And it came to pass that peace and the love of God was restored again among the people; and they searched the scriptures, and hearkened no more to the words of this wicked man.

Yep. That's what I thought. The wicked are doomed. (Matt. 25: 46) "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal "

OK.

[Maidservant]

No one disagrees that God hates wickedness even so far to say he hates "the" wicked. But this isn't about how he feels about them as his son or daughter. I have always been taught (right or wrong) that God does still love Lucifer as his son. The idea that he is frying the wicked to ashes (literally? figuratively?) as a token of non-love needs to be examined -- it's not necessarily so. He can love AND fry. Being a bit facetious there. In fact, if he didn't love, he wouldn't care. But he does love, so there is some justice, some limits . . . but eventually redemption for as much as is possible.

Here are some scriptures that may get closer to what you are asking.

Isaiah chapter 1

1 Nephi chapter 17 esp 31-36

Moses 7 esp 28-41

[Maidservant]

Not to mention this verse as teaching God's method of "destruction":

Isaiah 11:4 "He shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked."

What do you think that means? I've been pondering it myself lately.

[divinenature]

I don't see anywhere in those scriptures from Psalms and Proverbs that say "God hates the wicked."

Psalms 26: 5

5 I have hated the congregation of evil doers; and will not sit with the wicked.

Let's look at this in context, shall we? It is DAVID speaking in the first person. David is saying that he hated the congregation of evil doers and will not sit with the wicked. That is really great. He has innocent blood on his hands. I'm pretty sure all the Psalms of David are him speaking in first person, but I will check to make sure.

Here is the context:

1 Judge me, O Lord; for I have walked in mine integrity: I have trusted also in the Lord; therefore I shall not slide.

2 Examine me, O Lord, and prove me; try my reins and my heart.

3 For thy lovingkindness is before mine eyes: and I have walked in thy truth.

4 I have not sat with vain persons, neither will I go in with dissemblers.

5 I have hated the congregation of evil doers; and will not sit with the wicked.

6 I will wash mine hands in innocency: so will I compass thine altar, O Lord:

We are back to having NO scriptures that say God hates the wicked or the evil doers.

[Maidservant]

Also another thought I had. I don't know that it is warranted to make a dividing line between "the wicked" and "the sinner". There is no US and THEM. It's all US. I do sort of understand what you mean in that some people really are in to murder and oppression. But I still maintain that we can refrain from judging them (doesn't mean to allow them to continue) and where they are coming from and the light that they have and I think God knows how things are -- for example, a kid who grows up only hearing about how he's going to join the gang like his older brother, how can he know any better? maybe he'll get a chance to know something better, maybe he won't in this life -- whose sin and wickedness is this? the kid's? While we are all responsible for our choices and doing the best we can, there are all kinds of traps and ignorances for which we are not really in control of. In any case, again, God knows how to judge.

[handys003]

You put a lot of thought into your reply. However, loving one another is the commandment given to us so we can get along, develop love and understanding and enjoy our association as human beings, children of God. None of the scriptures above say that God loves the wicked. Remember that wicked here is not the same as sinful. We all sin. Actually I agree with you that HF was so enraged (wrath of God if you will) that yes, he would destroy us until Jesus interceded for us and pleaded unto the Father that we be spared. Do you agree? There is no scripture that I know of that supports God's love for the wicked. However, the scriptures do tell us to love our enemies and do good to those who persecute us for Jesus sake. Can enemies be wicked? Yes. We can love them and hope they will repent and cease to be wicked. But, the answered questions is whether God loves the wicked. I don't think He does and I see no scripture that specifically says he loves them. Is Satan wicked? The answer is obviously yes. God doesn't love him (anymore) but at one point I think HF did. Also the 1/3 that were kicked out. But once they went beyond a point of no return, God's judgment upon them was final. They were expelled forever. The likes of Hitler, who were probably influential in the pre-mortal life, were probably allowed to experience mortality to see if they would lead in righteousness but chose evil instead. A man with Hitler's talent could have led the world for good but he chose evil. We have leaders like that even in our present time. These are leaders in many countries who are responsible for the untimely death of countless innocent people, men, women and children. Does God love the wicked who shed innocent blood? Throughout the Scriptures, from Psalms, Proverbs, BOM & even D&C we clearly see that God despises the wicked and wickedness.

More specifically, take a look at the following scripture, from the NT:

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just... Matt 13:49

God is long-suffering and patient with us, including the wicked. But he doesn't love them.

Read Psalm 7:11

God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy. Psa 145:20

Fate of the wicked:

Revelation 20:9-10

9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[a] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Malachi 4:1-3

1

[Jason]

Thomas S. Monson is our Prophet, no? Are you saying then, it's doctrine and scripture that God loves the wicked because Brother Uchtdorf made that statement in the

Ensign and in Church Conference? If that's official Church doctrine, then the question is answered. I can just point out to the Ensign article and say that's our official opinion. Unless, of course, Brother Uchtdorf actually meant that God loves the sinner and since English is a second language for him, it's possible that he may have

gotten the two words mixed up. I speak several languages but German is not one of them. Maybe "wicked" in German translates into "sinner". If that's the case, then he has not declared any official doctrine with that statement in his talk.

I speak Dutch, and am somewhat fluid in German. "Wicked" is "bose", while a sinner is "sunder". As you can see, the terms are quite distinct in German (and quite similar to the Dutch).

By the way, to grasp at straws is "sich an einen Strohhalm klammern."

All of the apostles are prophets, seers, and revelators. President Uchtdorf is a prophet of God. When he speaks over the podium at General Conference he is preaching doctrine that has been reviewed and accepted by the apostles. None of them objected to saying that God loves even the wicked.

[SlackTime]

In your post you refer to God's anger at/with the wicked. But I know as a father I can be angry with my children, and even punish them, and still love them. God loves all of us, even the wicked. That doesn't mean that he can withold punishment or won't be angry when we disobey. He can love us even while hating our disobedience. Maybe all the more so because He knows what we could become through obedience and hates to see what we make of ourselves when we could be so much more.

[O-Brother]

In your post you refer to God's anger at/with the wicked. But I know as a father I can be angry with my children, and even punish them, and still love them. God loves all of us, even the wicked. That doesn't mean that he can withold punishment or won't be angry when we disobey. He can love us even while hating our disobedience. Maybe all the more so because He knows what we could become through obedience and hates to see what we make of ourselves when we could be so much more.

The topic calls for for a scripture that supports God's love for the wicked. So far, we've only been able to come up with interpretations of scripture or whom we think God loves. From the scriptures, everything seems to point to God despising the wicked, not loving them. It would be nice to be able to support a statement with scripture and I have not been able to find a verse where it says God loves the wicked. Again wicked in the context of a person who is not willing to repent, is a mass murderer or serial killer, sheds innocent blood, kills the innocent, etc. and not in the sense of a loving father dealing with repentable offenses, black sheep or ordinary sins. I'm talking about a very specific group of wicked people.

If someone asks me: Does God love the wicked? I'd have to say, you mean wicked as a person who sins and lives worldly? The answer is yes. But if you mean the likes of Bundy, child molesters who also rob virtue, Dahmer who killed and ate people, serial killers, mass murderers, etc. I'd have to say no and there is no scripture seems to support God's love towards these wicked men. The wicked, on the other hand, seems to be someone who has gone beyond the point of return. Denying the Holy Ghost might also categorize such individual, even though he or she might not be a mass murderer. While it's impossible for us to measure and know God's love toward anyone, scriptures don't seem to substantiate the notion of HF loving the wicked.

For example:

D&C 42: 18 And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.

You could ask: thou shall not kill what? I think it's rather obvious that the Lord is speaking about taking one's life or many lives. Killing is killing, right?

If there is no forgiveness in the world to come, it seals the fate of that person as "wicked", no? The wicked will be cast out, again, according to scripture.

My conclusion is that God "tolerates" the wicked because wickedness is part of our world and has been since the Fall of Adam. Was Cain wicked? Is Satan the "wicked one?" I also believe that God no longer loves Lucifer. Lucifer had his chance. And Judas? Judas paid with his own life to atone for his sin. Was he a murderer? No. But he contributed to murder. From the scriptures, it appears that Judas showed true remorse and, as far as we know, he only framed the Savior and no one else. Hardly a person who could be classified as a mass murderer.

Notice the Poll. The majority of people unanimously believe that God loves the wicked. That includes all the real wicked people throughout history, including those who killed innocent babies and women during the Inquisition. Executioners, murderers, etc. My thinking on that is that the word "wicked" is coming across as "sinners" when in reality, there is a difference between sinners and the wicked. Part of it is defined on the dictionary and obvious distinctions are made throughout the Bible and BOM. Sin is the common denominator between the two classes of people and because by their fruits we shall know them and the fruits of the wicked can be measurable, for example, in the number of lives they have destroyed, it's easy to make the distinction.

A step further, a person who has a late term abortion who had no knowledge about the Gospel but was influenced by the world, in my view, is not classifed as part of the "wicked". On the other hand, a person who willingly directs people to go kill every man, woman or child as in the case of Missouri, Herod, Hittler, Saddam Hussein in his evil sons, many African leaders, drug lords, etc. are considered to be "the wicked." UNLESS, killings are prompted by divine commandment and perhaps, if the people were MISLED. (Mountain Meadow).

What about Nephi killing Laban. He was neither misled nor did he kill because he was evil. It was the Spirit who told him to eliminate Laban. The wars in both the Bible and the BOM constitute many instances of killing by commandment. It seems that when God commands, it's different. There are other interesting issues in relation to this but I won't make it more complicated.

The wicked seem to be doomed if they don't repent in time and before they do something for which there is no forgiveness in this life or the life to come. They seem to be tolerated and given chances, but not necessarily "loved." Because our society seems to have a view that God loves the wicked, it could explain why people get away with murdering little children without any form of harsh or capital punishment. It could also explain all the leniency towards evil doers. On the other hand, Muslims have a different view on this and administer capital punishment to evil doers. I think China is another example of dealing with the wicked in an effective, swift manner. I'm not saying I support them, but it's interesting that we tend to be more compassionate and lenient with evil doers and these other folks are not as nice towards the wicked. I think they are extreme in certain cases and unjustified. But when someone dismembers a little innocent child and only gets 20 years or life in jail, it makes you wonder, especially if, according to some, God will still love such a person in the life to come. It sorts of throws the principle of justice out of balance. In my view.

That's is my own personal view on this and I could be wrong. A scripture to show God loves the wicked is what I've been searching for. I have a debate going on about this issue and the comments here have been very educational but not scripturally conclusive. I apologize if I made this very complicated. I think that the Devil loves the wicked as they help him carry out his destruction among the children of men, but not HF. HF loves the righteous and those of us willing to change, repent and come unto Christ.

[SlackTime]

The topic calls for for a scripture that supports God's love for the wicked. So far, we've only been able to come up with interpretations of scripture or whom we think God loves. From the scriptures, everything seems to point to God despising the wicked, not loving them. It would be nice to be able to support a statement with scripture and I have not been able to find a verse where it says God loves the wicked. Again wicked in the context of a person who is not willing to repent, is a mass murderer or serial killer, sheds innocent blood, kills the innocent, etc. and not in the sense of a loving father dealing with repentable offenses, black sheep or ordinary sins. I'm talking about a very specific group of wicked people.

If someone asks me: Does God love the wicked? I'd have to say, you mean wicked as a person who sins and lives worldly? The answer is yes. But if you mean the likes of Bundy, child molesters who also rob virtue, Dahmer who killed and ate people, serial killers, mass murderers, etc. I'd have to say no and there is no scripture seems to support God's love towards these wicked men. The wicked, on the other hand, seems to be someone who has gone beyond the point of return. Denying the Holy Ghost might also categorize such individual, even though he or she might not be a mass murderer. While it's impossible for us to measure and know God's love toward anyone, scriptures don't seem to substantiate the notion of HF loving the wicked.

For example:

D&C 42: 18 And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.

You could ask: thous shall not kill what? I think it's rather obvious that the Lord is speaking about taking one's life or many lives. Killing is killing, right?

If there is no forgiveness in the world to come, it seals the fate of that person as "wicked", no? The wicked will be cast out, again, according to scripture.

My conclusion is that God "tolerates" the wicked because wickedness is part of our world and has been since the Fall of Adam. Was Cain wicked? Is Satan the "wicked one?" I also believe that God no longer loves Lucifer. Lucifer had his chance. And Judas? Judas paid with his own life to atone for his sin. Was he a murderer? No. But he contributed to murder. From the scriptures, it appears that Judas showed true remorse and, as far as we know, he only framed the Savior and no one else. Hardly a person who could be classified as a mass murderer.

Notice the Poll. The majority of people unanimously believe that God loves the wicked. That includes all the real wicked people throughout history, including those who killed innocent babies and women during the Inquisition. Executioners, murderers, etc. My thinking on that is that the word "wicked" is coming across as "sinners" when in reality, there is a difference between sinners and the wicked. Part of it is defined on the dictionary and obvious distinctions are made throughout the Bible and BOM. Sin is the common denominator between the two classes of people and because by their fruits we shall know them and the fruits of the wicked can be measurable, for example, in the number of lives they have destroyed, it's easy to make the distinction.

A step further, a person who has a late term abortion who had no knowledge about the Gospel but was influenced by the world, in my view, is not classifed as part of the "wicked". On the other hand, a person who willingly directs people to go kill every man, woman or child as in the case of Missouri, Herod, Hittler, Saddam Hussein in his evil sons, many African leaders, drug lords, etc. are considered to be "the wicked." UNLESS, killings are prompted by divine commandment and perhaps, if the people were MISLED. (Mountain Meadow).

What about Nephi killing Laban. He was neither misled nor did he kill because he was evil. It was the Spirit who told him to eliminate Laban. The wars in both the Bible and the BOM constitute many instances of killing by commandment. It seems that when God commands, it's different. There are other interesting issues in relation to this but I won't make it more complicated.

The wicked seem to be doomed if they don't repent in time and before they do something for which there is no forgiveness in this life or the life to come. They seem to be tolerated and given chances, but not necessarily "loved." Because our society seems to have a view that God loves the wicked, it could explain why people get away with murdering little children without any form of harsh or capital punishment. It could also explain all the leniency towards evil doers. On the other hand, Muslims have a different view on this and administer capital punishment to evil doers. I think China is another example of dealing with the wicked in an effective, swift manner. I'm not saying I suppor them, but it's interesting that we tend to be more compassionate and lenient with evil doers and these other folks are not as nice towards the wicked. I think they are extreme in certain cases and unjustified. But when someone dismembers a little innocent child and only gets 20 years or life in jail, it makes you wonder, especially if, according to some, God will still love such a person in the life to come. It sorts of throws the principle of justice out of balance. In my view.

That's is my own personal view on this and I could be wrong. A scripture to show God loves the wicked is what I've been searching for. I have a debate going on about this issue and the comments here have been very educational but not scripturally conclusive. I apologize if I made this very complicated.

Some quotes:

24 He doeth not anything save it be for the benefit of the world; for he loveth the world, even that he layeth down his own life that he may draw call men unto him. Wherefore, he commandeth none that they shall not partake of his salvation. (2 Nephi 26:24)

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