Joseph Antley Posted October 3, 2009 Posted October 3, 2009 Elder Hales made this statement in his conference address during the Saturday afternoon session: "Most of us will not see God, as the prophets have."What implications does this statement have? It sounded to me like he was saying, I haven't seen God, and you probably won't either. Or is the phrase "as the prophets have" significant?What do you think? Hopefully some paranoid posters won't lambaste me for this.
LDSMusic483 Posted October 3, 2009 Posted October 3, 2009 Elder Hales made this statement in his conference address during the Saturday afternoon session: "Most of us will not see God, as the prophets have."What implications does this statement have? It sounded to me like he was saying, I haven't seen God, and you probably won't either. Or is the phrase "as the prophets have" significant?What do you think? Hopefully some paranoid posters won't lambaste me for this.Be thou lambasted!I think he specifically made a point to leave it murky as what he said can be taken to both sides of the argument.
Joseph Antley Posted October 3, 2009 Author Posted October 3, 2009 Be thou lambasted!I think he specifically made a point to leave it murky as what he said can be taken to both sides of the argument.How can it be taken in another way when he said "most of us will not see God," thus including himself in that?
LDSMusic483 Posted October 3, 2009 Posted October 3, 2009 How can it be taken in another way when he said "most of us will not see God," thus including himself in that?"Most of us" can be used as speaking to church membership as a whole. He could have gone on to say "some of us will,...some of us have."
John Larsen Posted October 3, 2009 Posted October 3, 2009 Be thou lambasted!I think he specifically made a point to leave it murky as what he said can be taken to both sides of the argument.I agree. The murkiness serves are real purpose. Those who have not seen God can be granted the benefit of the doubt without having to admit that their "special witness" is the same as is had by all.
LDSMusic483 Posted October 3, 2009 Posted October 3, 2009 I agree. The murkiness serves are real purpose. Those who have not seen God can be granted the benefit of the doubt without having to admit that their "special witness" is the same as is had by all.Or perhaps it is so that members who may never achieve this do not feel as though they are failing at something if they don't.
Jerubaal Posted October 3, 2009 Posted October 3, 2009 The obvious meaning to me would be that the prophets indeed have seen God. There are clear recorded accounts of theophanies in the past, and so it would be safe to assume that that is what Elder Hales is referring to.The only way I could see him meaning "as the prophets have" to mean "as the prophets also have not seen Him" would be if he were willfully seeking to be deceitful, which is what some have already suggested on this thread. That, for me at least, doesn't make sense. If the leadership of the church were pretending they had access to special revelation not usually available to the average member of the church they would outright lie about it as oppposed to using confusing, ambiguous language. Elder Hales is stating that the prophets have, in fact, seen God, and that most of us likely will not (at least in this mortal life).
rockslider Posted October 3, 2009 Posted October 3, 2009 discouraging. As noted in another thread ... not the direction things would have been empathized in say the 70's.
rockslider Posted October 3, 2009 Posted October 3, 2009 Elder Hales is stating that the prophets have, in fact, seen God, and that most of us likely will not (at least in this mortal life).agreed, and a discouraging message
LDSMusic483 Posted October 3, 2009 Posted October 3, 2009 agreed, and a discouraging messageAll things are possible unto those that believe. Perhaps just "most of us" will never muster enough faith in this life to accomplish something like this.
mercyngrace Posted October 3, 2009 Posted October 3, 2009 agreed, and a discouraging messageNot discouraging - factual. Most people are not willing to do what it takes. They will still be blessed with spiritual witnesses via the Holy Ghost but their unbelief keeps the veil intact. Also, all of the quorum of the 12 are "prophets, seers, and revelators" so I wouldn't try to read too much into Elder Hales' statement. I think it should be reassuring to members of the church who have not seen Christ to know that a testimony received through the Holy Ghost is more than enough.
lostindc Posted October 3, 2009 Posted October 3, 2009 I still hope but have my doubts that all LDS prophets have seen God or Jesus Christ.Maybe I am a dreamer...
John Larsen Posted October 3, 2009 Posted October 3, 2009 Or perhaps it is so that members who may never achieve this do not feel as though they are failing at something if they don't.If you had a job where people expected you to see or have heard something, and in fact there was no such thing, this is exactly the kind of language you would expect.
Deborah Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 I do think "as the prophets have" is significant. We all have different gifts. In D&C 46 we read 13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world. 14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.But as we read in Corinthians "But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will." In other words it doesn't matter how we know or what gifts we have they all come from the same source and they are all important to building testimony and uplifting others.
mercyngrace Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 If you had a job where people expected you to see or have heard something, and in fact there was no such thing, this is exactly the kind of language you would expect.If you knew that skeptics were anxiously awaiting to disect your every word in the hopes of undermining your credibility and destroying the faith of fellow believers you'd have pretty good cause to hold your pearls close and leave the swine with little to nothing to chatter about - especially when your personal experiences with the divine are not relevant to the salvation of anyone else.
Brenda Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 Elder Hales made this statement in his conference address during the Saturday afternoon session: "Most of us will not see God, as the prophets have."What implications does this statement have? It sounded to me like he was saying, I haven't seen God, and you probably won't either. Or is the phrase "as the prophets have" significant?What do you think? Hopefully some paranoid posters won't lambaste me for this.I don't think this implies that Elder Hales has or hasn't seen God. It does say that prophets have seen Him. Most of "us" (mortals, LDS, whatever) will not. Personally, I take that to mean -- in this life. Yet it does say that some of us will see God, and again, I take that to mean -- in this life. Many have. But most haven't. And if we don't now, we most likely will, later.
Olavarria Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 I think what he said sounded way less condesending than say: "most of youwill not see God as the prophets have". Interesting, how he said "most" instead of "none".
ed2276 Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 discouraging. As noted in another thread ... not the direction things would have been empathized in say the 70's.I agree. I remember as a young kid growing up in the Church in the 70s the sense of awe I felt when I would hear things like, "The Aaronic priesthood holds the keys of the ministering of angels." and, "It is your privilege to have the heavens opened to you and have angels come and minister to each one of you." (not exact quotes) That was really awesome and inspiring to me; as opposed to, "Most of us will not see God, as the prophets have." Perhaps his statement is not so discouraging when read within the full context of his talk (I didn't hear or read his words; I am just going by the small quote in the OP).
Maya Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 Where did I put that thing you smash the flies with? You know the long stick with a howly skin bit at the end? That fy is ... anoying.... not antley..To me it was just that ... it is OK if you dont see God you are ok if you dont. Not everybody needs to see Him, we can make it without seeing him!Anyway the Profets have all thought the times got special big, huge, things to do and that is when they have seen the God. I can only do small things and I will be pronpted by HS.
John Larsen Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 If you knew that skeptics were anxiously awaiting to disect your every word in the hopes of undermining your credibility and destroying the faith of fellow believers you'd have pretty good cause to hold your pearls close and leave the swine with little to nothing to chatter about - especially when your personal experiences with the divine are not relevant to the salvation of anyone else.Why should a prophet, seer or revelator be scared off by the skeptics? Why not just boldly proclaim the truths they know and let the chips fall where they will?Look, I'm not trying to make fun of them. Just consider this. I personally do not believe there is any resurrected Jesus Christ and I am agnostic about the belief in God. The brethren say exactly what I would expect them to say in their position. If it were key to the religion that their followers believed they were in direct conversation with God and they were not, then you would expect them to allude to it in ways that allow the faithful to interpret it their way. I don't think they are liars. I believe they have had experiences of strong emotional confirmation or transcendence that are common in all religions. I don't believe they have seen Jesus because I believe that to be impossible. They have said nothing to make me think otherwise. So what they are doing, whether intended or not, is to speak to both the believers and the skeptics at the same time.
Brenda Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 Why should a prophet, seer or revelator be scared off by the skeptics? Why not just boldly proclaim the truths they know and let the chips fall where they will?Look, I'm not trying to make fun of them. Just consider this. I personally do not believe there is any resurrected Jesus Christ and I am agnostic about the belief in God. The brethren say exactly what I would expect them to say in their position. If it were key to the religion that their followers believed they were in direct conversation with God and they were not, then you would expect them to allude to it in ways that allow the faithful to interpret it their way. I don't think they are liars. I believe they have had experiences of strong emotional confirmation or transcendence that are common in all religions. I don't believe they have seen Jesus because I believe that to be impossible. They have said nothing to make me think otherwise. So what they are doing, whether intended or not, is to speak to both the believers and the skeptics at the same time.Obviously you must believe Joseph Smith is a liar.
Deborah Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 Not everybody needs to see Him, we can make it without seeing him!I think that was the real message of his talk. Remember what the resurrected Lord said to Thomas "because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." Our faith is a powerful instrument. The time will come when all will know the Savior and bow to him, but meanwhile we walk by faith. Christ made an interesting statement while teaching in the temple. He said in John 7:28-29 "Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me." He was telling them that they knew him [because they saw him] but they didn't know his Father who sent him, but he Christ was testifying of his Father. Likewise we who have not seen Christ can only know of him through the prophets who testify of him. And by our faith we can know of his power in our lives and thus gain testimony of him too.
John Larsen Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 Obviously you must believe Joseph Smith is a liar.You must think all Hindus are liars.
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