Cain, cursed to live forever?

[alter idem]

How is it that these kinds of ideas get started?

I'm talking about the notion that Cain lived forever and it still walking the earth.

First, this is what the scriptures say about the curse placed on Cain:

Moses 5:36 And now thou shalt be cursed from the earth which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand

37 When thou tillest the ground it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength. A fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

When Cain realizes he will be killed by any who find him, the Lord tells him:

Moses 5:40 And I the Lord said unto him: Whosoever slayeth thee, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And I the Lord set a mark on Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

After being cursed, Cain was cut off from the presence of God, something he'd clearly enjoyed before he murdered his brother. The mark was a protection--so that others were warned not to seek vengeance against Cain for the death of Abel. The extended family was not to take vengeance against Cain or they would suffer seven fold the same vengeance against their own immediate loved ones.

Who got the idea that because no one was supposed to kill Cain, he was going to live forever? There is no tradition of this in Christianity that I can find. Can anyone show me any references (other than David Patten's story) to support this belief, that Cain is still roaming the earth, in some sort of cursed translated state?

In fact, the Apocryphal book of Jubilees says that Cain died when the house he'd built of stone fell on him.

I believe the Cain roaming the earth legend comes only from David Patten's second hand story as told by someone else and printed in a biography of David Patten and sited in "The Miracle of Forgiveness". But this seems to be inferred, because in reading the account in Miracle of Forgiveness, it does not say that Cain is still alive, it just reports Patten's claim that he met a miserable looking man on the road who told him that he roamed the earth trying to destroy others--and apparently Patten or others who repeated the story later believed it was Cain.

Can anyone site anything else to back this claim, because if this is all there is, I'd say it's hardly enough evidence to justify a claim that Cain managed to swim through the flood and has been roaming the earth for almost 6,000 years. And if that's all the evidence there is, I'd say we definitely should not be repeating this bit of information as fact in Sunday School, seminary classes etc.

[structurecop]

he met a miserable looking man on the road who told him that he roamed the earth trying to destroy others--

That would be a sweet gig.

And if that's all the evidence there is, I'd say we definitely should not be repeating this bit of information as fact in Sunday School, seminary classes etc.

Agreed.

[CV75]

How is it that these kinds of ideas get started?

How did he survive the Flood? Or is "Cain" a name-title passed down through the ages (the Master Mahan school of thought)?

[alter idem]

How did he survive the Flood? Or is "Cain" a name-title passed down through the ages (the Master Mahan school of thought)?

What reason do you believe that Cain survived the flood? It was not necessary for Cain to survive, only for one of his descendants to survive the flood.

[CV75]

What reason do you believe that Cain survived the flood? It was not necessary for Cain to survive, only for one of his descendants to survive the flood.

This daguerreotype, taken by the Patton expedition:

I understand Cain later to have died in a choking accident.

[alter idem]

This daguerreotype, taken by the Patton expedition:

I understand Cain later to have died in a choking accident.

Uh, thanks.

In all seriousness, I have a reason from bringing this topic up. I need info on Cain/Abel and I'd like to know if there is anything else that justifies the notion that some LDS seem to believe that Cain is still alive and roaming the earth.

[Sevenbak]

I think the reason it's not so easily discarded is that the Patten story was quoted and equated with Cain by President Kimball in his work Miracle of Forgiveness.

Also, since we know there is opposition in all things, believing the 3 Nephites and John the Beloved and their immortality goes a long way in supporting a claim.

Who know's if he's alive or not, it's not really important, but certainly there are some, even in Church hierarchy who believe so.

Perhaps he got past the Cherubim with his flaming sword and stole some fruit from the tree of life.

[alter idem]

I think the reason it's not so easily discarded is that the Patten story was quoted and equated with Cain by President Kimball in his work Miracle of Forgiveness.

I agree--I think that when Pres. Kimball quoted the story, he tacitly gave credibility to the idea that Cain was still alive. What's interesting is that in the actual version he cites, Patten does not even mention that it is Cain he met--but in the comments before the story, Pres. Kimball alludes to Cain, thus inferring that it is Cain. Also, in the version of Patten's experience as it is related, it is assumed this was a real person, not a vision or spirit, thus strengthening the idea that Cain was still alive.

Also, since we know there is opposition in all things, believing the 3 Nephites and John the Beloved and their immortality goes a long way in supporting a claim.

Well, yes, I can see that, except that in the case of these beings, they were given the gift of being translated so that they could "bring souls to Christ"--I don't see Heavenly Father granting this gift of living forever to allow someone to use it for evil..that just seems out of character and outside the designs of Heavenly Father's plan and purposes--to me it sounds like fokelore. I think this is why I have no problem believing the Three nephites and John the Beloved are still alive, but have difficulty believing Cain is.

Who know's if he's alive or not, it's not really important, but certainly there are some, even in Church hierarchy who believe so.

Perhaps he got past the Cherubim with his flaming sword and stole some fruit from the tree of life.

While it's not important for our salvation, I do think it is important to look carefully at the things we teach and promote within the church. I think it's sometimes the little inconsistencies like this that may bring some to question the truthfulness of the gospel in general. I think it's also a good reason to always go back to the scriptures as the basis for our beliefs--and if a belief is not supported by scripture, it should be considered with caution, no matter how long it's been around or who else believed or taught it.

[Chris Smith]

Matt Bowman's doing some great work on this little legend that I presume he plans to publish soon. He's found quotes from quite a few GAs, including Church presidents, that seem to confirm they believed it and even had further experiences that confirmed it.

[alter idem]

Matt Bowman's doing some great work on this little legend that I presume he plans to publish soon. He's found quotes from quite a few GAs, including Church presidents, that seem to confirm they believed it and even had further experiences that confirmed it.

I'll be interested to hear about the "further experiences".

[Sevenbak]

Here's another little tidbit I found on the matter. Apparently, Patten wasn't the only one to have seen such a creature and rebuke in the name of Christ.

E. Wesley Smith, president of the Hawaii mission told his his brother, Joseph Fielding Smith of an attack on him by Cain, described similarly to David Pattenâ??s earlier sighting. Joseph Fielding Smith then told Wesley it was Cain, and related the Patten story to him. My guess is that it's such supporting accounts that President kimball also had access to when he stated the same thing.

Apparently, there has been a book published on just this topic.

Clan of Cain: The Genesis of Bigfoot

[Ron Beron]

Matt Bowman's doing some great work on this little legend that I presume he plans to publish soon. He's found quotes from quite a few GAs, including Church presidents, that seem to confirm they believed it and even had further experiences that confirmed it.

Unfortunately even the very best and brightest can believe in urban/folk legends. Sounds like an interesting book.

[alter idem]

Here's another little tidbit I found on the matter. Apparently, Patten wasn't the only one to have seen such a creature and rebuke in the name of Christ.

E. Wesley Smith, president of the Hawaii mission told his his brother, Joseph Fielding Smith of an attack on him by Cain, described similarly to David Pattenâ??s earlier sighting. Joseph Fielding Smith then told Wesley it was Cain, and related the Patten story to him. My guess is that it's such supporting accounts that President kimball also had access to when he stated the same thing.

Apparently, there has been a book published on just this topic.

Clan of Cain: The Genesis of Bigfoot

Thanks for the helpful information, I had not heard of the E. Wesley Smith account, but am not surprised that Joseph Fielding Smith might have tied the two events together--I think he was a church historian (his father was for a while) and he had access to church archives; he could easily have known about the David Patten tale and it's not surprising that he would make the assumption that his brother's story was similar.

I had heard the legends that Cain was bigfoot, and for those who believe Cain is roaming around the earth, I suppose it's not an unreasonable theory.

[CV75]

In all seriousness, I have a reason from bringing this topic up. I need info on Cain/Abel and I'd like to know if there is anything else that justifies the notion that some LDS seem to believe that Cain is still alive and roaming the earth.

I couldn't help myself--it's Friday.

Perhaps his being cursed to be a "vagabond" in the earth (Genesis 4: 12 and Moses 5:37) led to a (mis?)understanding that he would do so for as long as the earth should stand, and to the (mis?)interpretation of evil, strange-looking, powerful men as Cain. Not the worst mistake to make when conversing with an exceedingly evil, powerful, scary-looking individual. And why not? Here is an interesting article that might support the consideration of a certain ancient Anglo-Saxon archetype (the brutish descendant(s) of Cain) persisting into the the psyche of modern Anglo-Saxon descendants: http://ealuscerwen.wordpress.com/kin-of-cain-annotated-bib/

Plus, it isn't entirely inconceivable that there is a Cain cult that uses his name-title and cleverly perpetuates his occult "legacy." Why wouldn't a liar identify himself as Cain, and carry the negative spiritual gravitas to such a degree that he might as well be Cain? I can't speak for President Kimball, but he had probably run across enough evil for him to give the story the benefit of a doubt, and believe it sufficiently to use it for illustrative purposes.

[kamenraider]

David W. Patten said that the person identified himself as Cain (Btw, does anyone think Bro. Patten, an Apostle, made the story up?) :

It was probably not long after his arrival in Tennessee

in the spring of 1836, that David had one of the most re-

markable experiences of his life. He was making his

home with Levi Taylor, the step-father of Abraham 0.

Smoot, at the time and had been to Paris, some sixteen

miles away, holding a meeting. Riding home in the

evening, just where his road lay through a dense growth

of brush, called in those parts a "barren," he suddenly be-

came aware that a person on foot by his side was keeping

pace with the mule on which he rode.

But the subjoined letter, dated at Provo, Utah, will

explain the matter:

President Joseph F. Smith, Salt Lake City :

Dear Brother: In relation to the subject of the visit

of Cain to Brother David W. Patten in the State of Ten-

nessee, about which you wrote to me, I will say that ac-

cording to the best of my recollection it was in the month

of September, 1835.

It was in the evening, just twilight, when Brother

Patten rode up to my father's house, alighted from his

mule and came into the house. The family immediately

observed that his countenance was quite changed. My

mother having first noticed his changed appearance said :

"Brother Patten, are you sick ?" He replied that he was

not, but had just met with a very remarkable personage

who had represented himself as being Cain, who murdered

his brother, Abel. He went on to tell the circumstances

as near as I can recall in the following language:

"As I was riding along the road on my mule I sudden-

ly noticed a very strange personage walking beside me. He

walked along beside me for about two miles. His head

was about even with my shoulders as I sat in my saddle.

He wore no clothing, but was covered with hair. His skin

was very dark. I asked him where he dwelt and he re-

plied that he had no home, that he was a wanderer in the

earth and traveled to and fro. He said he was a very

miserable creature, that he had earnestly sought death dur-

ing his sojourn upon the earth, but that he could not die,

and his mission was to destroy the souls of men. About

the time he expressed himself thus, I rebuked him in the

name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by virtue of the Holy

Priesthood, and commanded him to go hence, and he im-

mediately departed out of my sight. When he left me

I found myself near your house."

There was much conversation about the circumstances

between Brother Patten and my family which I don't re-

call, but the above is in substance his statement to us at

the time. The date is, to the best of my recollection, and

I think it is correct, but it may possible have been in the

spring of 1836, but I feel quite positive that the former

date is right.

Hoping the above will be satisfactory to you and an-

swer your purpose, I am with the kindest regards, as ever,

Your friend and Brother,

A. O. Smoot.

--The Life of David W. Patten: The First Apostolic Martyr by Lycurgus A. Wilson, SLC: Deseret News Press 1904, pgs. 46-47.

Here's another interesting story about Cain:

Whitaker Chambers wrote in Life Magazine an account of his

experiences with communism and testified before the courts of this land

that the communistic propaganda and purpose was to wipe God from the

memory of the people and to create a forgetfulness of any atonement of

Christ or anything of a religious nature, and ridicule it and bring it

to scorn. Chambers testified on oath that he had met the founder of this

great communistic movement and that he had met him in a great ball, in a

great cafeteria on Broadway, and that he had come into the room and had

introduced himself to him as the founder of all the works of darkness in

the earth, that he had been upon the earth since its beginning. This

couldn't have been anybody but Cain. He was an embodied man. He said at

this particular time that he was a giant of a man, about 6 1/2 or 7 feet

tall, very broad and burly, that he was dressed in western habit and

that he was filled with scorn and ridicule toward everything that was

good. He said he sat and talked with him for considerable length of time

and had outlined to him the designs that he had, that he was

perpetuating, and he boasted that he had headed these things since the

beginning of time. This was written in Life Magazine. The reason I

remember it was when we were in prison, Lyman took that Life Magazine

with him, and we read it many, many times.

--Rulon C. Allred, Treasures of Knowledge Vol. 1, Hamilton, Montana:

Bitterroot Publishing 1981, pg. 167.

[CV75]

Here's another interesting story about Cain:

Ether 8:15-16 indicates that many things are done to illicitly gain power (spiritual and temporal power), the origins of which are attributed to Cain and passed down from generation to generation (Helaman 6:30), and Ether 8:20 says they are had among all people. Helaman 6:26-30 and Moses 5:29-31, 49 shows how Cain and others received these things from Satan. Despite the use of oaths, covenants and swears, the great power of this tradition is in the lies and how they are kept. So regardless of the power displayed, anything anyone participating in these secrets says about himself is suspect, especially those who have gotten too far into it.

[kamenraider]

From a poem by Eliza R. Snow:

We read that Abel, Adam's son, was slain

By his aspiring, jealous brother: Cain;

And Cain was cursed; and yet he wears his "mark"--

As seen by David Patten, he was dark,

When, pointing to his face of glossy jet,

Cain said, "You see the curse is on me yet."

The first of murderers, now he fills his post,

And reigns as king o'er all the murd'rous host.

--Eliza R. Snow Smith, Biography and Family Record of Lorenzo Snow, SLC: Deseret News Press 1884, pg. 478.

Bruce R. McConkie said this:

Ancient Curse Removed

The ancient curse is no more. The seed of Cain and Ham and Canaan and Egyptus and Pharaoh (Abr. 1:20-27; Moses 5:16-41; 7:8, 22)--all these now have power to rise up and bless Abraham as their father.

--Bruce R. McConkie in Priesthood, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1981, pp. 127.

You would think that if the curse really were removed that the mark or token of it would at least be taken off Cain (who was white to begin with) if not taken off of his posterity (who had mingled with Africans, who were undoubtedly here before Adam and already black).

Here is an account, though, given in 1983 by a seminary student as related by his teacher (after the curse was supposed to have been "removed" in 1978 and have been "no more") :

A group of teenaged boys were playing with a Ouija board. They were asking simple, fun questions. One of them had the idea to take the board to the graveyard.... After awhile they started asking deeper questions. One boy asked, "Can we see Cain?" The Ouija board answered yes. All of a sudden a huge black man was standing on the hill.... Everyone was scared, so they ran to their car with the black man in hot pursuit. The guy driving screeched away, and then drove everybody home.... The next morning he had decided that it never happened, but at breakfast his mom asked why he kept coming and going the night before. [spelling corrected by me -- KR]

--Folk Collection 8a, Group 7: Box 3, 2.4.1.5.20.1, Fife Folklore Archives, Special Collections, Merrill-Cazier Library, Utah State University, Logan UT.

Here is E. Wesley Smith's account of his experience with Cain the night before the dedication of the temple at Laie, Hawaii in 1921:

A man came through the door. He was tall enough to have to stoop to enter. His eyes were very protruding and rather wild looking, his fingernails were thick and long. He presented a rather unkempt appearance and wore no clothing at all.... There suddenly appeared in [smith's] right hand a light which had the size and appearance of a dagger.... A voice said "This is your priesthood." He commanded the person in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to depart.... Immediately when the light appeared the person stopped and on being commanded to leave, he backed out the door.

--"Experiences with Cain," n.d., MSS 5273, LDS Church Archives.

Interestingly I had just recently read an account in my own missionary journal of an experience with Cain that was told to me by another missionary in my mission, so I thought I'd post that too just for fun (I won't say which mission I went to or what the Elder's name was) :

...his companion got up in the middle of the night and went in to the bathroom and so the guy went back to sleep and woke up a couple of hours later and his companion was still in the bathroom so he said "Hey -- you alright?" and didn't hear an answer and the door was locked... so he went and called the mission pres. who said he'd be right over and when the Pres. arrived the[y] went in the bedroom and the companion was lying on his bed curled up in a fetal position sobbing and he was all bruised and bloodied and he said that he had challenged Satan to a fight and some guy appeared and said he was Cain and beat the tar outta the guy.

--Journal of [kamenraider] 1989-1990, May 6, 1990 "Supernatural Experiences", pgs. 57-58.

[alter idem]

I couldn't help myself--it's Friday.

Perhaps his being cursed to be a "vagabond" in the earth (Genesis 4: 12 and Moses 5:37) led to a (mis?)understanding that he would do so for as long as the earth should stand, and to the (mis?)interpretation of evil, strange-looking, powerful men as Cain. Not the worst mistake to make when conversing with an exceedingly evil, powerful, scary-looking individual. And why not? Here is an interesting article that might support the consideration of a certain ancient Anglo-Saxon archetype (the brutish descendant(s) of Cain) persisting into the the psyche of modern Anglo-Saxon descendants: http://ealuscerwen.wordpress.com/kin-of-cain-annotated-bib/

Plus, it isn't entirely inconceivable that there is a Cain cult that uses his name-title and cleverly perpetuates his occult "legacy." Why wouldn't a liar identify himself as Cain, and carry the negative spiritual gravitas to such a degree that he might as well be Cain? I can't speak for President Kimball, but he had probably run across enough evil for him to give the story the benefit of a doubt, and believe it sufficiently to use it for illustrative purposes.

This is great stuff! Thanks so much for finding this, CV75..I even read Beowolf (though it was years ago) and did not remember this!!

[alter idem]

Kamenraider, thanks for the interesting anecdotes--also, especially helpful is the actual account of E. Wesley's Smith's experience--I was hoping to find it and you provided it so I didn't have to go searching!

edited to add: I noticed one of the anecdotes is provided by Rulon Allred. That wasn't surprising since I'd expect the fundamentalists to have embraced and carried on this belief about Cain--and interesting that they equated him with communism. I'm wondering if anyone has verified this story by identifying the Life magazine article he was referring to. Maybe I'll do a little sleuthing if I have time.

[Eden*]

My two cents worth:

I think there may be some merit to idea that Cain is still living, as we know for sure that there are righteous beings who have received degrees of quickening to allow them to endure long life (translation) making them impervious to death. The reacurring idea of ancient nefarious beings in fiction like vampires who are immortal for example. Joseph Campbell has influenced me to believe all fictional archetypes are actually only shadows of a real counterpart that really exists or has existed in the material non-fictional world, otherwise the fictional archetype could not exist. So we have good immortal beings we know as (translated personages), naturally logic would dictate that the polar opposite the anti-thesis must exist also.

These accounts of Cain that are presented here are reminiscent of and have striking parallels and similarities to sightings of Cartaphilus a fallen immortal, of which I am aware of at least one lds historical account of early pioneers on the plains who entertained this individual who was cursed to wander the earth seeking his own redemption.

(See, Three Nephites)

Interview accounts with Cartiphilus tell of him mentioning of his futile attempts to kill himself, but finding it impossible.

Food for thought:

(how he survived the flood I do not know, perhaps Noah's raven flew over to Cain's little barge, after it did not return to the Arc, after all they are black & a very old occult omen of evil/misfortune & they rank the highest on the avarian I.Q. scale . )

[alter idem]

Thanks Eden, after reading your post I found info. on Cartaphilus and other legends relating to him.

I agree, I see the folklore on Vampires as similar. To me, the Cain stories are examples of something I consider LDS "folklore"--outside the canon but still quite persistent in being passed down and believed.