How is the concept of heresy viewed in Mormonism?

[annewandering]

Totally disagree. Heresy is something the Catholics punish for, not the Mormons. I'm firmly in the camp of Tsuzuki, LoaP and (gulp) Mr. Reed. And, Bro. Fuller, I may not have been a member for 50 years, but its mighty, mighty close. In our stake membership in another religion is not actionable, unless it is some apostate branch-off from the LDS.

HiJolly

An apostle was excommunicated in the not too distant past for heresy. How can you say its not punishable? An aside is that he was involved in none lds religious practices as well.

[HiJolly]

An apostle was excommunicated in the not too distant past for heresy. How can you say its not punishable? An aside is that he was involved in none lds religious practices as well.

Hmmm.... Most recent example I'm familiar with was for marrying a 2nd wife. That's certainly actionable. After all, I believe in polygamy, but since I haven't (and won't) marry a 2nd wife, I'm not a heretic.

I think that point has been emphasized already in this thread. Kathrine did a great job of it.

Or were you thinking of someone else?

HiJolly

[annewandering]

opps I made a mistake. It was general authority. Big boo boo. lol

[Tsuzuki]

opps I made a mistake. It was general authority. Big boo boo. lol

Who was it?

[annewandering]

Who was it?

I was hoping you wouldnt ask. lol. I am so tired tonight. Does it help to know it was the Native American man?

[Tsuzuki]

I was hoping you wouldnt ask. lol. I am so tired tonight. Does it help to know it was the Native American man?

If this is who you're talking about, I wouldn't exactly call that being excommunicated for heresy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_P._Lee...inal_conviction

Excommunication and criminal conviction

On September 1, 1989, the Church announced that Lee had been excommunicated for "apostasy and other conduct unbecoming a member of the Church." He was the first general authority to be excommunicated since 1943, when Apostle Richard R. Lyman was excommunicated for adultery and unlawful cohabitation.

According to Lee, the action stemmed from his disagreement with Church President Ezra Taft Benson over the role of Native Americans in the Church. Significantly, when he became Church President, Benson ended the Church's Indian Placement Program, which Lee cited as a key to his personal development. Lee argued that Benson was not treating Native American Latter-day Saints in the way that the late Church President Kimball would have approved. Additionally, Lee claimed that the First Presidency had accused him of polygamy, immorality and teaching false doctrine. Lee's letters to the leadership of the LDS Church were turned over to the news media and caused "a good deal of dissension in Salt Lake City." The church did not publicly respond to Lee's letters or his public comments; it is the policy of the Church to not publicize the details of an excommunicant's behavior which brought about the disciplinary action.

In 1993, the

Salt Lake Tribune

reported that Lee had attempted to sexually molest a minor girl in 1989, and that this was one of the reasons for Lee's excommunication. Initially, Lee denied the charges; however, on October 12, 1994, the

Tribune

reported:

A year ago, former Mormon general authority George P. Lee proclaimed he was 'innocent before God' of sexually molesting a 12-year-old neighbor girl. But Tuesday before a 3rd District judge, Lee humbly hung his head and admitted to touching the girl's breasts for sexual gratification .... Lee, 51, pleaded guilty to attempted sexual abuse of a child, a third-degree felony.

On July 27, 2007, Lee was arrested in Washington County, Utah for failing to register as a sex offender in the state of Utah. The police reported that Lee had not registered since 2001 and that he had been "living in an area with several young children in close proximity." Lee was booked into Purgatory Correctional Facility in Hurricane, Utah on $5,000 bail. The case dragged on for many months due to Lee's health issues. On March 19, 2008 the case was formally dropped due to these issues and Lee has since registered with the sex offender registry.

[annewandering]

Thank you for posting this, disturbing as it is. I confess that I was apparently reading very odd sources for my information. Southern California newspapers most likely. lol no wonder.

What I had read was that he was teaching sweat lodge ceremonies, etc and teaching false doctrine. It was too long ago that I really dont remember exactly where I read that but most likely newspapers in the area we lived at the time.

It is curious that the molestations were never mentioned in anything I read.

Isn't the internet wonderful? It might not be right a lot of times but at least you can get a variety of sources.

[cjcampbell]

Here here!

Actually, I believe the phrase is "Hear, hear!"

[cjcampbell]

Joining another church may well subject you to Church discipline. Some of us really have been bishops or served in other positions involved with Church discipline. The Handbook of Instructions is quite clear on what sort of offenses may require Church discipline.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is a search for truth, which we will accept wherever we find it, whether that is through revelation, scientific research, something known by another Church, or whatever. That is our doctrine. We do believe that scientists and leaders of other churches are often inspired. The Book of Mormon, for example, points out that Columbus was moved upon by the Holy Ghost to set out on his voyages. We believe that God will yet reveal many important things.

In all of this, however, we are not free to actively oppose Church leaders, Church teachings, or Church activities. Obstructing the building up of the kingdom of God is not something a believing member would knowingly do. You are allowed to believe in moon men, as Joseph Smith did. You may believe that the ten lost tribes went to the North Star, as an old Sunday School manual used when I was a child said. You can even be a Democrat, as President Hinckley was. But you may not bear false witness against Church leaders. You may not violate your covenants. You may not insist that the Church teaches something that it does not. And if you are corrected on a matter of Church doctrine by your priesthood leaders you are not supposed to continue teaching false doctrine. You are allowed to believe a doctrine that the Church considers false, but you may not teach it and you particularly may not misrepresent it as Church doctrine.

Another thing that will get you excommunicated is predatory or bullying behavior. People have been excommunicated for insisting that everyone who disagrees with them is wrong and that they need to repent, no matter how long they have been a member of the Church. I knew a brother very well who thought he was a strong member of the Church, but he would not stop criticizing the bishop and everybody else in the ward for not being as dedicated to temple work as he was. Over a period of several years he became more and more belligerent about it. He finally had to be released as a temple worker and eventually was excommunicated for apostasy -- he refused to sustain his leaders and became very public about it. This sort of behavior, unfortunately, was all too common in the Philippines during our mission there, but it is not unique to that country. The Brethren continually warn us about gospel hobbies for good reason. It is all too easy to overemphasize one aspect of the gospel or another and then begin to judge your leaders unrighteously because of it.

Another path to apostasy that I have observed with great sorrow is the belief that somehow one is invulnerable to temptation. Like the belief that one is always right and everybody else is wrong, it really boils down to pride -- the unrighteous comparing of people with one another. This is why Satan rebelled at the council in Heaven. He thought he could do a better job than the Savior and refused to sustain Jesus Christ. We make the same error whenever we refuse to sustain a leader for whatever reason. We may believe the bishop is a bad person. We may even have certain knowledge that he does not keep all the commandments. But we are required to sustain him until he is released. And we are required to sustain one another, to build one another up. We are supposed to be a team, here, helping one another to attain salvation. We are not supposed to be driving people away from it.

[Tsuzuki]

In other words, as long as you don't take yourself too seriously or misrepresent others, you should be fine.

Joining another church may well subject you to Church discipline. Some of us really have been bishops or served in other positions involved with Church discipline. The Handbook of Instructions is quite clear on what sort of offenses may require Church discipline.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is a search for truth, which we will accept wherever we find it, whether that is through revelation, scientific research, something known by another Church, or whatever. That is our doctrine. We do believe that scientists and leaders of other churches are often inspired. The Book of Mormon, for example, points out that Columbus was moved upon by the Holy Ghost to set out on his voyages. We believe that God will yet reveal many important things.

In all of this, however, we are not free to actively oppose Church leaders, Church teachings, or Church activities. Obstructing the building up of the kingdom of God is not something a believing member would knowingly do. You are allowed to believe in moon men, as Joseph Smith did. You may believe that the ten lost tribes went to the North Star, as an old Sunday School manual used when I was a child said. You can even be a Democrat, as President Hinckley was. But you may not bear false witness against Church leaders. You may not violate your covenants. You may not insist that the Church teaches something that it does not. And if you are corrected on a matter of Church doctrine by your priesthood leaders you are not supposed to continue teaching false doctrine. You are allowed to believe a doctrine that the Church considers false, but you may not teach it and you particularly may not misrepresent it as Church doctrine.

Another thing that will get you excommunicated is predatory or bullying behavior. People have been excommunicated for insisting that everyone who disagrees with them is wrong and that they need to repent, no matter how long they have been a member of the Church. I knew a brother very well who thought he was a strong member of the Church, but he would not stop criticizing the bishop and everybody else in the ward for not being as dedicated to temple work as he was. Over a period of several years he became more and more belligerent about it. He finally had to be released as a temple worker and eventually was excommunicated for apostasy -- he refused to sustain his leaders and became very public about it. This sort of behavior, unfortunately, was all too common in the Philippines during our mission there, but it is not unique to that country. The Brethren continually warn us about gospel hobbies for good reason. It is all too easy to overemphasize one aspect of the gospel or another and then begin to judge your leaders unrighteously because of it.

Another path to apostasy that I have observed with great sorrow is the belief that somehow one is invulnerable to temptation. Like the belief that one is always right and everybody else is wrong, it really boils down to pride -- the unrighteous comparing of people with one another. This is why Satan rebelled at the council in Heaven. He thought he could do a better job than the Savior and refused to sustain Jesus Christ. We make the same error whenever we refuse to sustain a leader for whatever reason. We may believe the bishop is a bad person. We may even have certain knowledge that he does not keep all the commandments. But we are required to sustain him until he is released. And we are required to sustain one another, to build one another up. We are supposed to be a team, here, helping one another to attain salvation. We are not supposed to be driving people away from it.

[zerinus]

From reading the words of early Mormon leaders, such and Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, etc., it would seem to me that Mormonism tolerates, and in some cases even encourages heretical beliefs, as long as they don't interfere with the teaching authority of the church. As such, I think the mainstream concept of heresy is alien to Mormonism.

"I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latter-day Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammelled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine."

- Joseph Smith, "History of the Church"

"It was the occupation of Jesus Christ and his Apostles to propagate the Gospel of salvation and the principles of eternal life to the world, and it is our duty and calling, as ministers of the same salvation and Gospel, to gather every item of truth and reject every error. Whether a truth be found with professed infidels, or with the Universalists, or the Church of Rome, or the Methodists, the Church of England, the Presbyterians, the Baptists, the Quakers, the Shakers, or any other of the various and numerous different sects and parties, all of whom have more or less truth, it is the business of the Elders of this Church (Jesus, their elder brother, being at their head,) to gather up all the truths in the world pertaining to life and salvation, to the Gospel we preach, to mechanism of every kind, to the sciences, and to philosophy, wherever it may be found in every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, and bring it to Zion.

The people upon this earth have a great many errors, and they have also a great many truths. This statement is not only true of the nations termed civilized-those who profess to worship the true God, but is equally applicable to pagans of all countries, for in their religious rights and ceremonies may be found a great many truths which we will also gather home to Zion. All truth is for the salvation of the children of men-for their benefit and learning-for their furtherance in the principles of divine knowledge; and divine knowledge is any matter of fact-truth; and all truth pertains to divinity."

- Brigham Young, "Intelligence, Etc." (Journal of Discourses 7:283-284)

"Although I was going to say I am not a Universalist, but I am, and I am also a Presbyterian, and a Roman Catholic, and a Methodist, in short, I believe in every true principle that is imbibed by any person or sect, and reject the false. If there is any truth in heaven, earth, or hell, I want to embrace it, I care not what shape it comes in to me, who brings it, or who believes in it, whether it is popular or unpopular. Truth, eternal truth, I wish to float in and enjoy."

- John Taylor, "Motives and Feelings of the Saints, etc." (JD 1:155)

This was an interesting thread to read. I wish I had joined earlier so I could have had a better participation. In principle I agree with what you have stated above, although I am not aware of the actual theological beliefs that you are trying to justify by it. Others seem to be saying that you are both a Catholic and a Mormon. I am not sure exactly what that means. Are you a baptized member of both? Do you actively participate in both? Do you accept the authority Pope and the Prophet at the same time? If so, then how do you reconcile the fact that neither side accepts the baptism of the other as valid?! I don't exactly know what your situation is, so I can't comment. But what you have stated above as a matter of principle is correct. You are also correct that under an earlier ruling joining another church was not an excommunicable offence; but I hear that now the ruling has changed. In any case, these are matters between you and your bishop. If he is okay with, so am I.

zerinus

EDIT. The Church neither endorses not tolerates "heretical beliefs". What the Church does is that it will not discipline you for believing something that is not considered 100% orthodox, provided that you do not try to actively teach it or persuade others to believe it. The LDS Church does not have a definition of heresy, but of apostasy. LDS theological terminologies are somewhat different from traditional Christian ones. Erring in doctrine is neither apostasy nor heresy; but going against the authority of the Church is.

[Tsuzuki]

In principle I agree with what you have stated above, although I am not aware of the actual theological beliefs that you are trying to justify by it.

That's because I'm not trying to justify any actual theological beliefs. In fact, I think it would save people a considerable chunk of their sanity if they treated most of what I say on this message board as hypothetical.

The LDS Church does not have a definition of heresy, but of apostasy. LDS theological terminologies are somewhat different from traditional Christian ones. Erring in doctrine is neither apostasy nor heresy; but going against the authority of the Church is.

This pretty much sums up what I mean in my original post.

[zerinus]

There would have to be a defined orthodoxy before a heresy could exist. Orthodoxy is defined as "right belief". As has already been stated, Mormons can believe whatever they like.

Mormons believe that "right belief" is determined by the standard works of the Church. You have a catechism, we have the standard works.

zerinus

[zerinus]

Ask Katherine for it, it is her claim. I read it here often. Obviously it is LDS belief, why don't you ask LDS people to show it.

I am not misrepresenting if I say, "as has already been stated", and it was a LDS person doing the stating. I am stating, this is what a LDS person says is their belief. If they have misrepresented their own belief, then who am I to correct them? Doing so I would only get, "stop telling us what we believe".

I think that you have misunderstood Catherineâ??s post. She is not saying that Mormons can believe anything they like. What she is saying is that if somebody errs in doctrine, it is not considered a case for disciplinary action, unless he tries to promote it, persuade other people to believe it, and actively goes against the official position of the church. I think that is probably true of most churches, including the Catholic Church. Do all Catholics believe exactly the same things? Are there no diverse opinions over doctrinal beliefs? Does the Catholic Church take disciplinary action against someone at the slightest sign of variation in belief? Perhaps they would! I donâ??t know. But I doubt it; and I sincerely hope they would not. I think most churches wouldnâ??t, and neither does the LDS Church. That is what Catherine was saying.

zerinus

[zerinus]

That is an improper reading of what Brigham Young was saying. I would not mislead you on this folks. I might on political stuff but not on this. I have been a member for 50 years and I can tell you there is no latitude for you to believe this stuff, if you want to be a member in good standing. You have misread what Brigham Young was saying.

How was the Brigham Young quote being misunderstood?

zerinus

[zerinus]

Then how do you explain the very wide doctrinal beliefs that LDS have? For example, Jesus is the Son of God...what does that mean? BY taught it was very literal. Some LDS have this literal belief today, others vehemently deny it. There is no "right belief", even for Jesus is the Son of God.

I could make the same criticism about Catholic doctrine. From Augustine in the fourth century to Peter Abelard in the 12th century, Catholic doctrine was that unbaptized babies to to hell! From Peter Abelard to the Council of Trent the doctrine was that they go to limbo! From the Council of Trent until now the doctrine is that we don't know where they go! That is three changes. Which one was right?

The LDS position, in case you are interested, is that none of them are right. They go to heaven unconditionaly, without reservation. No change in that one!

zerinus

[Mike Reed]

Actually, I believe the phrase is "Hear, hear!"

Cough... um...

well... maybe...

Actually...

Darn it!

Sigh...

.

.

.

You are right.