For those who believe man cannot become Gods...

[mfbukowski]

I must be sleepy or something, but I really don't understand how your point related either to the Stoic beliefs that Paul was riffing on, or Paul's teachings in the NT. For just one example, where does Paul refer to flesh as a "great mystery"?

Well you may be sorry you asked the question, but you did! These are ripped out of context to show my point, but I didn't want to leave it just at naked references either because perhaps you would not see it as I see it without the (Empahsis Added)

1Cor 15

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Ephesians 3:

1 FOR this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel...

Ephesians 5:

28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Colossians 1

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:...

(The following passage is clearly a continuation of the above discussion):

Colossians 2:

....2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

1 Timothy 3:16:

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

This is only a portion of all the possible quotes.

It is through Christ that we are all transformed into one flesh through love, with marriage as an analogy, having been transformed from the dust of this earth as was Adam. I think personally that this is how we are able to "sit in his throne" (Rev. 3:21) with Christ and the Father. We become one with them as they have become one with another-- and of course they are resurrected beings with celestial bodies as we also will be. This is the "Family (social) Trinity" extending its unity through love to us as heirs of Christ. "This is my work and my glory- to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." That's how I think it all fits together. And as we are all knit together through sealing into the patriarchal order, our heirs inherit our glory through all generations of time etc. Pretty simple really.

[rhinomelon]

I honestly thought it was more in looking forward to the reward, as the analogy with the Greek games indicated. The metaphor is interesting, to say the least! The games being metaphor for heaven, when we get there and get the prize, it is pure, unadulterated Deification.

That's how I've always read it, as a prize at the games. It's a common enough analogy elsewhere in Paul's writings, too. Saying that "God" is really just a job just doesn't fit.

This is only a portion of all the possible quotes.

Thanks for posting those, along with the context (we should really do that more often and save some headaches). However, the only thing I see is the term "mystery" near the term "flesh" in a few verses, with most of the passages creating no conceptual link between the two. Ephesians 5 and I Timothy 3 are the only ones that could really go that far, in my opinion, and even there, the mystery is not flesh itself, but God in the flesh, or Christ's unity with the Church. In fact, I would argue that context points to God in the flesh as the real mystery being revealed here in most of these passages. In this case, the fact that God incarnate is a glorious mystery points more to the mainstream Christian view of the incarnation, in which God took on flesh in Christ in a unique and mind-boggling event, which also means that God by nature is not incarnate.

Just my two bits there.

Take care, everyone

[mfbukowski]

Thanks for posting those, along with the context (we should really do that more often and save some headaches). However, the only thing I see is the term "mystery" near the term "flesh" in a few verses, with most of the passages creating no conceptual link between the two. Ephesians 5 and I Timothy 3 are the only ones that could really go that far, in my opinion, and even there, the mystery is not flesh itself, but God in the flesh, or Christ's unity with the Church. In fact, I would argue that context points to God in the flesh as the real mystery being revealed here in most of these passages. In this case, the fact that God incarnate is a glorious mystery points more to the mainstream Christian view of the incarnation, in which God took on flesh in Christ in a unique and mind-boggling event, which also means that God by nature is not incarnate.

Just my two bits there.

Take care, everyone

Well of course I agree and disagree. The incarnation is part of it no question- but you look at the Colossians discussion and the old favorite 1 Cor 15 and it is clear when you look at the whole chapter what is really being discussed. And even you concede those two points. When he says "I am going to reveal a mystery" and then rambles on for a bit, as he does in Colossians and then finally gets to the point, what would you say the "mystery" he reveals is? The two words don't have to be next to eachother to make the point. And it is clear that he is talking about us sharing with him bodily, though the word "mystery" may not be in close proximity. I don't know how you could see it any other way objectively. But I guess that's what makes a horse race.

[mfbukowski]

It is through Christ that we are all transformed into one flesh through love, with marriage as an analogy, having been transformed from the dust of this earth as was Adam. I think personally that this is how we are able to "sit in his throne" (Rev. 3:21) with Christ and the Father. We become one with them as they have become one with another-- and of course they are resurrected beings with celestial bodies as we also will be. This is the "Family (social) Trinity" extending its unity through love to us as heirs of Christ. "This is my work and my glory- to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." That's how I think it all fits together. And as we are all knit together through sealing into the patriarchal order, our heirs inherit our glory through all generations of time etc. Pretty simple really.

My turn to talk to myself!

I also think this is seen in the LDS ordinaces themselves. Baptism is where the old "Adam" -- the man of earthly flesh dies and we are born again into Christ's family by taking on his name; confirmation is where we actually become a member of his body; ordination per section 84 includes a potential "renewing of our bodies" which can be like a partial resurrection in this life; in the endowment we symbolically take upon ourselves the potential to receive a resurrected celestial body; and in the sealing we become one flesh with Christ through marriage and also become part of the patriarchal order connecting us all as one family.

[Zakuska]

Thanks for posting those, along with the context (we should really do that more often and save some headaches). However, the only thing I see is the term "mystery" near the term "flesh" in a few verses, with most of the passages creating no conceptual link between the two. Ephesians 5 and I Timothy 3 are the only ones that could really go that far, in my opinion, and even there, the mystery is not flesh itself, but God in the flesh, or Christ's unity with the Church. In fact, I would argue that context points to God in the flesh as the real mystery being revealed here in most of these passages. In this case, the fact that God incarnate is a glorious mystery points more to the mainstream Christian view of the incarnation, in which God took on flesh in Christ in a unique and mind-boggling event, which also means that God by nature is not incarnate.

Just my two bits there.

Take care, everyone

Hold it right there Rhino. 1 Tim 3:16 is a variant reading so you can't really rely on it... Please mark that off your list of proof texts.

²⁴tc The Byzantine text along with a few other witnesses (א^c A^c C² D²Ψ [88 pc] 1739 1881

[mfbukowski]

Hold it right there Rhino. 1 Tim 3:16 is a variant reading so you can't really rely on it... Please mark that off your list of proof texts.

24 tc The Byzantine text along with a few other witnesses (אc Ac C2 D2 Ψ [88 pc] 1739 1881

[Thunderfire]

I've never received an answer from any non-LDS regarding this verse. None. Nor the Jehova's Witnesses I've introduced to it (the vast majority of EV's I've ever mentioned this to appear to have never encountered it, although I'm sure they must have, at least in a cursory way).

This, and the other verse in Revelations that mentions those who overcome the world inheriting all things, are a kind of check mate move in discussions where its been brought up. Were I not LDS, I have no idea what I'd make of it at first glance.

Where I disagree with this interpretation in light of this thread, "For those who believe man cannot become Gods", as those who talk of inheriting what God has (or prepared for us) verse those who talk about becoming a god through eternal progression.

I understand the hidden message in LDS belief (my opinion) which is not being addressed here...as man is, God once was, as God is, man will one day be. So there is a big difference (again my opinion) between inheriting the things of God, the rights to sit on his throne, even developing his virtues/morals/characteristics and becoming a god through eternal progression.

My view of God the Father is a "presence" beyond the size of an endless universe. So big that for all eternity I will be astounded at how I cannot fathom his fullness. As example, I met a Native American "holy man' who encountered three aspects of God "the Father". He encountered the holiness of God, the purity of God, and the love of God saying that each of these attributes are so astounding in magnitude, in depth, and in breadth, that you could spend all eternity just exploring one of these "aspects of Gods nature".

So in my opinion, we only think we will become gods, but we cannot fathom the complete nature of God now, let alone emulate any one of these attributes to the fullest like God. I had an encounter where Jesus appeared in a vision having me stand by his side. He came as the spirit of humility which was beyond my minds ability to comprehend. This is a good place to start. If we think we will become a god some day, we can begin by mastering humility in the depth and magnitude which the Lord first showed. Realizing how pitiful we are, prone to sin, and how much we need our savior Christ Jesus in order for us to become what we were created to be...joint heirs with him.

Anyway, just my thoughts...

[mfbukowski]

Where I disagree with this interpretation in light of this thread, "For those who believe man cannot become Gods", as those who talk of inheriting what God has (or prepared for us) verse those who talk about becoming a god through eternal progression.

I understand the hidden message in LDS belief (my opinion) which is not being addressed here...as man is, God once was, as God is, man will one day be. So there is a big difference (again my opinion) between inheriting the things of God, the rights to sit on his throne, even developing his virtues/morals/characteristics and becoming a god through eternal progression.

My view of God the Father is a "presence" beyond the size of an endless universe. So big that for all eternity I will be astounded at how I cannot fathom his fullness. As example, I met a Native American "holy man' who encountered three aspects of God "the Father". He encountered the holiness of God, the purity of God, and the love of God saying that each of these attributes are so astounding in magnitude, in depth, and in breadth, that you could spend all eternity just exploring one of these "aspects of Gods nature".

So in my opinion, we only think we will become gods, but we cannot fathom the complete nature of God now, let alone emulate any one of these attributes to the fullest like God. I had an encounter where Jesus appeared in a vision having me stand by his side. He came as the spirit of humility which was beyond my minds ability to comprehend. This is a good place to start. If we think we will become a god some day, we can begin by mastering humility in the depth and magnitude which the Lord first showed. Realizing how pitiful we are, prone to sin, and how much we need our savior Christ Jesus in order for us to become what we were created to be...joint heirs with him.

Anyway, just my thoughts...

What is truly phenomenal to me is God's greatness that he would give worms like us such a gift.

[ebeddoulos]

Wait, so you're translating it as a possessive? The "job" of "God"? I don't (see) anything in the context or in any of Paul's writings that would support this reading.

Take care

You are absolutely correct! Have a cookie! The case of the phrase in question is genitive but it is not possessive genitive. As I am sure you also surmised, the case is descriptive genitive though I've been told that it could also be plenary genitive. In either case, the noun substitution examples which I used and re-supply below still stands.

"I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." (Philippians 3:14 - KJV)

"I press toward the mark for the prize of the (high/prestigious) (calling/job) of (God/President of the United States of America) in (Christ Jesus/the electoral college)." (Philippians 3:14 â?? KJV noun substitute comparison)

"I press toward the mark for the prize of the prestigious job of President of the United States of America in the electoral college." (Philippians 3:14 - KJV noun substitution)

"I press towards the mark, to the prize of the supernal vocation of God in Christ Jesus.â? (Philippians 3:14 â?? DRB)

"I press towards the mark, to the prize of the (supernal/prestigious) (vocation/job) of (God/President of the United States of America) in (Christ Jesus/the electoral college).â? (Philippians 3:14 - DRB noun substitute comparison)

"I press towards the mark, to the prize of the prestigious job of President of the United States of America in the electoral college.â? (Philippians 3:14 - DRB noun substitution)

Again, I think that the job title for this profession is a marvel.

Nor does the term "klesis" in the biblical context refer to a job or position of employment, but a calling or an invitation. This comports well with the context as well as the rest of the occurrences of the term "klesis" in scripture.

Possibly Adam Clark may possibly have described a calling best: â??Their vocation, or calling, took in their Christian profession, with all the doctrines, precepts, privileges, duties, etc., of the Christian religion.â? (Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible) This is why, when a Latter-day Saint is extended a calling, it is an invitation, if you will, to hold a â??church jobâ? or a Christian profession or vocation. So you and I are almost in agreement on this point and we would be if you accepted Adam Clarkeâ??s definition. If you cannot, then let's agree to disagree, shall we?

[mfbukowski]

Possibly Adam Clark may possibly have described a calling best: “Their vocation, or calling, took in their Christian profession, with all the doctrines, precepts, privileges, duties, etc., of the Christian religion.” (Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible)

And this same language is often used in "setting apart" an individual to a calling -- just a "coincidence" of course!

[e=mc2]

My turn to talk to myself!

I also think this is seen in the LDS ordinaces themselves. Baptism is where the old "Adam" -- the man of earthly flesh dies and we are born again into Christ's family by taking on his name; confirmation is where we actually become a member of his body; ordination per section 84 includes a potential "renewing of our bodies" which can be like a partial resurrection in this life; in the endowment we symbolically take upon ourselves the potential to receive a resurrected celestial body; and in the sealing we become one flesh with Christ through marriage and also become part of the patriarchal order connecting us all as one family.

Heh! I sure hope my influence in this area of talking to oneself is not contagious.....

[jwhitlock]

As a student of mainstream Christian theology...

Rhino, I'm curious. As I thought back on it, I don't think I ever found out what branch of mainstream Christian theology you're actually studying.

[mfbukowski]

Heh! I sure hope my influence in this area of talking to oneself is not contagious.....

Nah, I thought that one up all by myself. My main goal is to do a whole thread myself with my various multiple personalities all contributing equally.

[rhinomelon]

Rhino, I'm curious. As I thought back on it, I don't think I ever found out what branch of mainstream Christian theology you're actually studying.

Well, I got my undergrad degree in theology from an evangelical Protestant institution, which basically covered the Protestant side of things as well as elements of theology held in common among mainstream Christian groups. Then after graduation I took a year of classes at the local Greek Orthodox church with the priest, and now I'm getting an MA in early church history from a Catholic university, which is mostly from the Catholic perspective with elements of both Orthodoxy and Protestantism dovetailing with the story now and then. I'm really interested in the whole spectrum, I guess.

I blame my LDS friends for trying to convert me and getting me into theology...

So you and I are almost in agreement on this point and we would be if you accepted Adam Clarkeâ??s definition.

Well, I agree with Clarke's definition, but don't see how it supports your interpretation over that of mainstream Christianity. Clarke's definition refers to earthly ministry, not to an office of "God" in the afterlife.

Take care, everyone

[mpschmitt]

So when we Latter-day Saints say that we believe that man can become like God through Christ what we mean is what is stated above in these Biblical and extra-Biblical scriptures. We mean that we will be heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. We will inherit what he inherits and as Sons and Daughters of God, we will be just men made perfect through Jesus, the mediator of the new covenant. When framed in this context, it takes the sting out of the fiery darts of the polemicist.

As a student of mainstream Christian theology, I don't see anything in the above paragraph that would not be equally at home in mainstream theology. We believe that we will be like God (image and likeness, after all), perfect men and women just like Jesus Christ was a perfect man. We will sit on the throne with Christ as adopted sons and daughters of God, and joint heirs with Christ. None of this needs to negate the key ontological difference between God and man, which is amply demonstrated in scripture as well as in the writings of early Christianity.

I see a clear ontological difference between mortal man and God in scripture. Less so between God and the glorified immortal man who is raised through Jesus Christ to the kind of life that God lives. "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is"(1 John 3). Jesus narrows that gap, and without him, we could never narrow it ourselves. The gift of the Atonement delivers mankind from the natural destination and consequence of their mortal state, what the Book of Mormon refers to as "that awful monster the devil, and death, and hell, and that lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment"(see http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/9/10,12,19,26#10). Unaided, man tends toward entropy and decay, but through the gift of Christ, we are raised to newness in life and reborn as Sons and Daughters of God. Because of Jesus, we inherit all that he will inherit and rule and reign with him. As that quote from Elder Packer I reference makes clear, in LDS theology, God will always remain our Father and will always be greater than us, but he desires that we live the kind of life that he lives and share in his power and glory.