For those who believe man cannot become Gods...

[Mudcat]

Romans 8:17 "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

A+ on the thread and A+ on the verse!

I am an Evangelical Christian that doesn't think we will become God's, because Scripture seems to enforce that there is and will be only one God. However, this verse in particular excites me.... A lot!

Paul seems to be saying that we are heirs to throne, so to speak. That means we are all Princes and Princesses of the Royal throne. It affirms to me that we are truly the children of our God. I don't mean that lightheartedly.

However, we also need to look at Paul's verbiage (perhaps Maklelan or one of those Ancient Greek aficionados will weigh in here) but given the text of the KJV, we are left with what seems to be a link to a monarchistic patriarchy.

The thing that strikes me, is that our God is everlasting. He doesn't quit, die or retire. This would mean to me that we are heirs to infinity. We have all the rights of the Royal Family, as has been given us. But for us to become God, wouldn't the current throne have to be displaced?

Respects,

Mudcat

[jwhitlock]

(I can't help but chuckle when Walter Martin triumphantly proclaimed after reading the scripture, "How oft would I have gathered thee under my wings....": "Now God's a chicken!" )

There are metaphors like this in scripture, granted, but it's quite clear when God is using them and when He isn't.

Reading Matt 23:37 (O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!), it is very evident that you are correct. It's phrased as a metaphor and not meant to be literal.

The clear difference between such an analogy and the literal concepts phrased in Ex 33:11 (And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.) should not even be a point of discussion.

[Zakuska]

1 John 3

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Men are gods?

[a5m5a5d]

But for us to become God, wouldn't the current throne have to be displaced?

We don't become God, we become A God or LIKE God. Our Heavenly Father will still have his throne and his glory.

The verse in Luke says "every one shall be AS his master." It says nothing about replacing him, or displacing the throne. Read it as it is please.

[Billy]

Romans 8:17 "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

This verse does not say that you will become a God, and other verses clearly teach that there is only one God and that in the future there will be only one God.

Isa 43:

10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

A+ on the thread and A+ on the verse!I am an Evangelical Christian that doesn't think we will become God's, because Scripture seems to enforce that there is and will be only one God. However, this verse in particular excites me.... A lot!Paul seems to be saying that we are heirs to throne, so to speak. That means we are all Princes and Princesses of the Royal throne. It affirms to me that we are truly the children of our God. I don't mean that lightheartedly.However, we also need to look at Paul's verbiage (perhaps Maklelan or one of those Ancient Greek aficionados will weigh in here) but given the text of the KJV, we are left with what seems to be a link to a monarchistic patriarchy. The thing that strikes me, is that our God is everlasting. He doesn't quit, die or retire. This would mean to me that we are heirs to infinity. We have all the rights of the Royal Family, as has been given us. But for us to become God, wouldn't the current throne have to be displaced?Respects,Mudcat

Mudcat,Good reply.I want to look at a few things you said becuase they are true."That means we are all Princes and Princesses of the Royal throne. It affirms to me that we are truly the children of our God. I don't mean that lightheartedly.The thing that strikes me, is that our God is everlasting. He doesn't quit, die or retire. This would mean to me that we are heirs to infinity."2 points 1) We are God's children2) If we never die after resurrection then we to are from everlasting until everlasting. Now to the last statement "But for us to become God, wouldn't the current throne have to be displaced"Why do you say that. The scriptures speak plainly that we will inherit Christ's throne as he inherited his Father's throne. I dont see how it would be displaced.Is there some rule some were were there is to be only one throne? ANd if so Rev 3:21 seems to contradict that.Is there only one God in all of exsistance? I know if zero scriptures that says that specifically.I know people choose to imterpret a certain verse that way. We will get to that a little latter.

This verse does not say that you will become a God, and other verses clearly teach that there is only one God and that in the future there will be only one God. Isa 43: 10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Yawn.Billy stop twisting the scriptures. I am going to request you be removed from this thread if you keep this up.

[Connolly]

It means that we are imputed with His righteousness.

Completely? Or just partially? Is the atonement and grace of Christ partial? Or is it complete? Is it anything short of infinite, by even the least degree?

[Zakuska]

This verse does not say that you will become a God, and other verses clearly teach that there is only one God and that in the future there will be only one God.

Isa 43:

10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

The word "FORMED" in this verse means organized from pre-existing materials in a mold (or a form) so God was the Only Idol that was ever created and the only one that ever will be... Cool?!

In other words... theres more than meets the eye to the verse Billy.

[a5m5a5d]

This verse does not say that you will become a God, and other verses clearly teach that there is only one God and that in the future there will be only one God.

Isa 43:

10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Yes but read on Billy, if you continue to verse 11 you will see: "I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour."

This is saying that there is no saviour other than Christ.

Nice try Billy...

[jadams_4242]

I've never received an answer from any non-LDS regarding this verse. None. Nor the Jehova's Witnesses I've introduced to it (the vast majority of EV's I've ever mentioned this to appear to have never encountered it, although I'm sure they must have, at least in a cursory way).

This, and the other verse in Revelations that mentions those who overcome the world inheriting all things, are a kind of check mate move in discussions where its been brought up. Were I not LDS, I have no idea what I'd make of it at first glance.

Most do not acknowlege it because there translations say something differant. thats why they use "new and improved" versions.

[Brenda]

A+ on the thread and A+ on the verse!

I am an Evangelical Christian that doesn't think we will become God's, because Scripture seems to enforce that there is and will be only one God. However, this verse in particular excites me.... A lot!

Paul seems to be saying that we are heirs to throne, so to speak. That means we are all Princes and Princesses of the Royal throne. It affirms to me that we are truly the children of our God. I don't mean that lightheartedly.

However, we also need to look at Paul's verbiage (perhaps Maklelan or one of those Ancient Greek aficionados will weigh in here) but given the text of the KJV, we are left with what seems to be a link to a monarchistic patriarchy.

The thing that strikes me, is that our God is everlasting. He doesn't quit, die or retire. This would mean to me that we are heirs to infinity. We have all the rights of the Royal Family, as has been given us. But for us to become God, wouldn't the current throne have to be displaced?

Respects,

Mudcat

Whenever Mudcat speaks, I sit up and listen.

This relates to families. There are countless mothers, yet I only have one. The day I became a mother, my mother was not displaced. She will always be my mother and I will always be her daughter.

[Sevenbak]

Plus there's all the references to kingdoms and crowns that will be inherited. We'll inherit ALL that the Father hath. Those are powerful promises to the faithful and obedient.

Do we want to keep this strictly biblical references, or shall we get into statements made by early CHristian Fathers, pre Constantine?

Sure, why not. Here's a few:

Irenaeus, who wrote in the latter half of the second century that "we have not been made gods from the beginning, but at first merely men, then at length gods . . . ."272 He also wrote, "our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself."273

Justin Martyr, in the middle of the second century, said that "all men are deemed worthy of becoming 'gods,' and of having power to become sons of the Highest . . . ."274

Jerome, who translated the Bible into Latin, wrote that God, "made man for that purpose, that from men they may become gods."275

Clement of Alexandria explained that true knowledge of the divine leads to godhood: "Whence at last . . . it is that knowledge is committed to those fit and selected for it. It leads us to the endless and perfect end, teaching us beforehand the future life that we shall lead, according to God, and with gods; after we are freed from all punishment and penalty which we undergo, in consequence of our sins, for salutary discipline. After which redemption the reward and the honours are assigned to those who have become perfect; when they have got done with purification, and ceased from all service, though it be holy service, and among saints. Then become pure in heart, and near to the Lord, there awaits them restoration to everlasting contemplation; and they are called by the appellation of gods, being destined to sit on thrones with the other gods that have been first put in their places by the Saviour."276

He also said this:

"Now it is possible that some may dislike what we have said representing the Father as the one true God, but admitting other beings besides the true God, who have become gods by having a share of God. They may fear that the glory of Him who surpasses all creation may be lowered to the level of those other beings called gods. We drew this distinction between Him and them that we showed God the Word to be to all the other gods the minister of their divinity . . . . As, then, there are many gods, but to us there is but one God the Father, and many Lords, but to us there is one Lord, Jesus Christ . . . ".277

http://www.fairlds.org/Restoring_the_Ancie...rch/chap03.html

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Whenever Mudcat speaks, I sit up and listen.

This relates to families. There are countless mothers, yet I only have one. The day I became a mother, my mother was not displaced. She will always be my mother and I will always be her daughter.

Bravo, Bravo.

This is a great point.

This was a great and simple to the point.

There is our God and He is our one God, then there are others Gods, but they are not our God.

Does me being a father diminish my brother also being a father?

[Billy]

Yes but read on Billy, if you continue to verse 11 you will see: "I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour."

This is saying that there is no saviour other than Christ.

Nice try Billy...

Are you trying to prove the trinity , are you LDS?

Isa 43:

10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Who is speaking here?

What is He saying?

[Mudcat]

But for us to become God, wouldn't the current throne have to be displaced"Why do you say that. The scriptures speak plainly that we will inherit Christ's throne as he inherited his Father's throne. I dont see how it would be displaced.Is there some rule some were were there is to be only one throne? ANd if so Rev 3:21 seems to contradict that.

Hey Mola,

Well to answer, I am sure you are aware of the "immutability" verses that seem to imply a singular deity in power that was, is and will be. I suppose as I define it, I would most likely side with the Eastern Orthodox as partaker of the divine. To many, their view is the afterlife on steroids. In contrast, the LDS view is of the afterlife on steroids and human growth hormone.

In regards to the term throne, it is still used in singularity not plurality... at least in the verse mentioned.

I don't think Rev 3:21 contradicts, rather it is a statement that alludes to the power of being a child of God. We obviously can't take the verse in the literally, unless we all plan on sitting in one REALLY BIG chair for eternity.

Is there only one God in all of exsistance? I know if zero scriptures that says that specifically.I know people choose to imterpret a certain verse that way. We will get to that a little latter.

Well I think the Scripture leaves latitude for "gods", but I don't know about "God's". I'm curious to see what you have in mind.

Yo Bud Mud

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Are you trying to prove the trinity , are you LDS?

Isa 43:

10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Who is speaking here?

What is He saying?

This has to do with who we worship and our family ties. It goes right along with the 10 commandments.

Ex. 20: 3

3 Thou shalt have ano other gods before me. This would be false or real gods. The verse does say specifically so I included both because it doesnt differnetiate does it?

Billy this verse does not say that other gods dont exsist, or that God the Father is the only God in all of exsistance. Sorry.

Further more why does Paul tell us

"5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are dall things, and we by him."

Deal with these scriputre verses or admit that there is a contradiction in your infallaible bible.

[Zakuska]

How about these...

From the Vatican Cathesim:

-St. Athenasius

460 The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."

Thomas Aquinas later quoted St Athenasius-

"the full participation of the Divinity, which is the true bliss of man and end of human life; and this is bestowed upon us by Christ's humanity; for Augustine says in a sermon (xiii de Temp): 'God was made man, that man might be made God' " (ST III, q. 1 a. 2).

And one More Recently...

The load, or weight, or burden of my neighborâ??s glory should be laid on my back, a load so heavy that only humility can carry it, and the backs of the proud will be broken. It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you can talk to may one day be a creature which, if you say it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship, or else a horror and a corruption such as you now meet, if at all, only in a nightmare."

-CS Lewis, Mere Christianity

The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were â??godsâ?? and He is going to make good His words. If we let Himâ??for we can prevent Him, if we chooseâ??He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating joy and wisdom and love as we cannot not imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (thought, of course, on a much smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said.

(Mere Christianity, p.174)

[Billy]

This has to do with who we worship and our family ties. It goes right along with the 10 commandments.

Isa 43:

10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Who is speaking here?

What is He saying?

Who is speaking here?

What is He saying?

Further more why does Paul tell us

"5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are dall things, and we by him."

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are dall things, and we by him."

Exactly One God--which consists of the persons of the trinity--the Father, the son, and the Holy Ghost.

[Mudcat]

Whenever Mudcat speaks, I sit up and listen.

Hey Brenda!

Thanks for the compliment. Hope life is treating you well and hope you are good.

Its good to see you posting again!

E. F. Mudcat

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Who is speaking here?

What is He saying?

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are dall things, and we by him."

Exactly One God--which consists of the persons of the trinity--the Father, the son, and the Holy Ghost.

You didnt even try to deal with the other verse Billy. I love how you love to cherry pick but it isnt going to work.

Jesus is speaking on behalf of the Father in the OT. Jesus was known as Jehovah. So if Jesus is Jehovah who is that Father? Any way you slice there is 2 Gods there. The creeds are an abomination not supported by the text of the bible.

You might have 1/2 a point if the bible only had Isaiah 43:10 But it doesnt there are other verses that contradict your interpretation.

You have one verse that semi counts and we have at least a dozen that contradict your interpretation. What do we do???

[Zakuska]

Who is speaking here?

What is He saying?

The same person who is speaking here...

Gen. 1: 26

26

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Hey Mola,

Well I think the Scripture leaves latitude for "gods", but I don't know about "God's". I'm curious to see what you have in mind.

Yo Bud Mud

A quick answer to this that we will never be the Father. So sometimes I'm not sure if it is better to put Gods or gods. now there is a verse in Philipians that tells us that it is not robbery to be equal with God.

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: So Jesus doesn't think ti robbery to be equal with God. So I dunno. I know that God the Father will always be our God and if we continue on down the road of the LDS thought, if you become a god you will never be my God.

I will address your other points in a second.

THe reason I enjoy dialgue with you is because you can at least see our point of view, and that can be a hard thing to do sometimes. I really dont care if you agree with it, but at least you will see it.

[Billy]

" . . .before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."

Jesus is speaking on behalf of the Father in the OT.

So you are saying that Jesus is saying that God the Father is the only God, and that no God is formed before God the Father, and no God is formed after him? What about God the Father's Father is he not a God? What about Jesus, is He not a God? What about the Holy Ghost is He not a God?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Hey Mola,Well to answer, I am sure you are aware of the "immutability" verses that seem to imply a singular deity in power that was, is and will be. I suppose as I define it, I would most likely side with the Eastern Orthodox as partaker of the divine. To many, their view is the afterlife on steroids. In contrast, the LDS view is of the afterlife on steroids and human growth hormone.In regards to the term throne, it is still used in singularity not plurality... at least in the verse mentioned.I don't think Rev 3:21 contradicts, rather it is a statement that alludes to the power of being a child of God. We obviously can't take the verse in the literally, unless we all plan on sitting in one REALLY BIG chair for eternity. Yo Bud Mud

What if what is literal here is that we will "inherit" (inherit being the literal word) a throne? Not that we will sit literally on God's throne but we will inherit what that throne represents?What do thrones normaly represent?

So you are saying that Jesus is saying that God the Father is the only God, and that no God is formed before God the Father, and no God is formed after him? What about God the Father's Father is he not a God? What about Jesus, is He not a God? What about the Holy Ghost is He not a God?

BillyGod the Father's Father is not our God. Only God the Father is our God. But that doesnt mean that God the Father's Father isnt a God.Jesus is our advocate with the Father. We get to the Father through the Son.

[Sevenbak]

What do thrones normaly represent?

And the crowns that go with thrones

2 Tim. 2: 5, 2 Tim. 4: 8, James 1: 12, 1 Pet. 5: 4, Rev. 2: 10, Rev. 3: 11, Rev. 6: 2