a5m5a5d Posted March 27, 2009 Posted March 27, 2009 Romans 8:17 "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."
Christian Mormon Posted March 27, 2009 Posted March 27, 2009 ...and explain this scriptureRevelations 3:21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Droopy Posted March 27, 2009 Posted March 27, 2009 ...and explain this scriptureRevelations 3:21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.I've never received an answer from any non-LDS regarding this verse. None. Nor the Jehova's Witnesses I've introduced to it (the vast majority of EV's I've ever mentioned this to appear to have never encountered it, although I'm sure they must have, at least in a cursory way).This, and the other verse in Revelations that mentions those who overcome the world inheriting all things, are a kind of check mate move in discussions where its been brought up. Were I not LDS, I have no idea what I'd make of it at first glance.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted March 27, 2009 Posted March 27, 2009 They are taken out of context.That is the best I have seen form the EV crowd, well any crowd for the most part.
jwhitlock Posted March 27, 2009 Posted March 27, 2009 Or how about this one...Luke 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted March 27, 2009 Posted March 27, 2009 Or how about this one...Luke 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.Now that is one that I over looked. That one is real good. They might as well just have said, "You shall be a god like Jesus".
Droopy Posted March 27, 2009 Posted March 27, 2009 Now that is one that I over looked. That one is real good. They might as well just have said, "You shall be a god like Jesus".Which is very close to what is apparently being said in 1 John 3:2
Hoops22 Posted March 27, 2009 Posted March 27, 2009 I see no indication in these verses that we will be gods. I do, however, see that we will share in His everlasting Glory - since it is His Glory that makes us righteous.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted March 27, 2009 Posted March 27, 2009 I see no indication in these verses that we will be gods. I do, however, see that we will share in His everlasting Glory - since it is His Glory that makes us righteous.And what is glory??
a5m5a5d Posted March 27, 2009 Author Posted March 27, 2009 Come on hoops, you cannot deny it. It's clearly written in all of these sriptures. The potential of man is divine. Or as Truman G. Madsen says, "you have come literally "trailing clouds of glory." If you only knew who you are and what you did and how you earned the privileges of mortality, and not just mortality but of this time, this place, this dispensation, and the associates that have been meant to cross and intertwine with your lives; if you knew now the vision you had then of what this trial, this probation, what in my bitter moments I call this spook alley of mortality, could produce, would produce; if you knew the latent infinite power that is locked up and hidden for your own good now--you would never again yield to any of the putdowns that are a dime a dozen in our culture today. Everywhere pessimism, everywhere suspicion, everywhere the denial of the worth and dignity of man."
a5m5a5d Posted March 27, 2009 Author Posted March 27, 2009 I see no indication in these verses that we will be gods. I do, however, see that we will share in His everlasting Glory - since it is His Glory that makes us righteous.Really...? so in Luke when it says, "everyone who is perfect shall be as his master" That just skims over your head as if it's not even there?
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted March 27, 2009 Posted March 27, 2009 relevance?Hahaha, that is the best you have got. It is entirely relevant as that is what makes up God. His glory. Hoops what does it mean when it says "but every one that is perfect shall be as his master"?Who is the master?What does it mean to be "as his master"?No games.
a5m5a5d Posted March 27, 2009 Author Posted March 27, 2009 It's sad to see so many people who reject the truth about their own potential.
Brenda Posted March 27, 2009 Posted March 27, 2009 relevance?With all due respect, you're kidding, right?
Hoops22 Posted March 27, 2009 Posted March 27, 2009 Hahaha, that is the best you have got. It is entirely relevant as that is what makes up God. His glory. Hoops what does it mean when it says "but every one that is perfect shall be as his master"?Who is the master?What does it mean to be "as his master"?No games.It means that we are imputed with His righteousness.
a5m5a5d Posted March 27, 2009 Author Posted March 27, 2009 It means that we are imputed with His righteousness.??? I think you know darn well what it means. That we can become just as God is.
Brenda Posted March 27, 2009 Posted March 27, 2009 It means that we are imputed with His righteousness.I respect your interpretation, but that's not what it says.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted March 27, 2009 Posted March 27, 2009 It means that we are imputed with His righteousness.That would be nice if that verse I quoted said that but it didnt.I asked for no games and you cant do it. Hoops what does it mean when it says "but every one that is perfect shall be as his master"?Who is the master?What does it mean to be "as his master"?The master = Jesus? Yes or no?Is Jesus God to you? Yes or no?The verse says we shall be as his master, which means as Jesus, which means as God.In what ways?This verse doesnt tell us but Rev 3:21 does. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.What does "my Father's throne" represent? In this verse?A throne can only mean one thing Power and Authority.Tell me what did Christ "inherit"? Did not Christ inhert all that the Father has? If that is the case then we are joint heirs. THe scriptures are clear.
Deborah Posted March 27, 2009 Posted March 27, 2009 It means that we are imputed with His righteousness. That's a nice phrase but what does it mean?
Cold Steel Posted March 27, 2009 Posted March 27, 2009 I see no indication in these verses that we will be gods. I do, however, see that we will share in His everlasting Gloryâ??since it is His Glory that makes us righteous.The scriptures very rarely spell things out, but they put these things into analogies, metaphors and even literal expressions. Whose idea was it, for example, for Jesus to be God's "Son"? Is this a literal reference? The reader is left to determine it, but it's pretty plain. Why did God use the term "Son"? It's a familial expression, one we're all familiar with. A Son has a father and a moth...er...well, that is a problem, isn't it? A mother. Does the term "Son" imply a mother? Where was there ever a son without both a father and mother? Why, in Genesis, does it say that both male and female were created in "God's image" (plural form of God, remember)? Doesn't appear to be figurative, as Seth was in the "image" of Adam and Jesus was in the "express image" of the Father? There's also the terrestrial shape, which evangelicals and Catholics have never explained. Why would God appear in shape like a man, with feet, hands, mouth, arm, so forth? (I can't help but chuckle when Walter Martin triumphantly proclaimed after reading the scripture, "How oft would I have gathered thee under my wings....": "Now God's a chicken!" )There are metaphors like this in scripture, granted, but it's quite clear when God is using them and when He isn't. It doesn't follow that because the Lord speaks in metaphor once, that He does it all the time. The prophets also make it quite clear that they're not speaking figuratively. Only with the mysticism that was introduced into the ancient church did we start thinking of God as being everywhere at once and, at the same time, nowhere. What Mormons ask, and what we deserve an answer to, is that if someone is going to clock us for our progressive beliefs (and I use that work literally, not ironically), they ought to be able to answer these scriptures. And though they don't specifically state: "Man can become God," they do state that man can become like Christ (exactly like Christ), who in turn will become exactly like the Father! These scripture also call into question how this would be possible if Jesus were glorified flesh whilst the Father was a being of Spirit. If Jesus becomes like the Father, and we are physically resurrected to become like Christ, doesn't that mean that the Father also has a glorified body like the Son's?There's so much here and sectarian Christians should give us a break and at least think about it. I didn't always believe as I do now, but it wasn't a big leap to me. -----------------
a5m5a5d Posted March 27, 2009 Author Posted March 27, 2009 The scriptures very rarely spell things out, but they put these things into analogies, metaphors and even literal expressions. Whose idea was it, for example, for Jesus to be God's "Son"? Is this a literal reference? The reader is left to determine it, but it's pretty plain. Why did God use the term "Son"? It's a familial expression, one we're all familiar with. A Son has a father and a moth...er...well, that is a problem, isn't it? A mother. Does the term "Son" imply a mother? Where was there ever a son without both a father and mother? Why, in Genesis, does it say that both male and female were created in "God's image" (plural form of God, remember)? Doesn't appear to be figurative, as Seth was in the "image" of Adam and Jesus was in the "express image" of the Father? There's also the terrestrial shape, which evangelicals and Catholics have never explained. Why would God appear in shape like a man, with feet, hands, mouth, arm, so forth? (I can't help but chuckle when Walter Martin triumphantly proclaimed after reading the scripture, "How oft would I have gathered thee under my wings....": "Now God's a chicken!" )There are metaphors like this in scripture, granted, but it's quite clear when God is using them and when He isn't. It doesn't follow that because the Lord speaks in metaphor once, that He does it all the time. The prophets also make it quite clear that they're not speaking figuratively. Only with the mysticism that was introduced into the ancient church did we start thinking of God as being everywhere at once and, at the same time, nowhere. What Mormons ask, and what we deserve an answer to, is that if someone is going to clock us for our progressive beliefs (and I use that work literally, not ironically), they ought to be able to answer these scriptures. And though they don't specifically state: "Man can become God," they do state that man can become like Christ (exactly like Christ), who in turn will become exactly like the Father! These scripture also call into question how this would be possible if Jesus were glorified flesh whilst the Father was a being of Spirit. If Jesus becomes like the Father, and we are physically resurrected to become like Christ, doesn't that mean that the Father also has a glorified body like the Son's?There's so much here and sectarian Christians should give us a break and at least think about it. I didn't always believe as I do now, but it wasn't a big leap to me. -----------------Great Post Thanks.
jwhitlock Posted March 27, 2009 Posted March 27, 2009 Or how about this one...Luke 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.And to cross reference it with another relevant reference...Matt 5:48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. The NT is a virtual treasure trove of references, both indirect and direct, of our literal, familial kinship with our Heavenly Father, and of His desire for us to become like Him.
jwhitlock Posted March 27, 2009 Posted March 27, 2009 Which is very close to what is apparently being said in 1 John 3:2It is quite apparent that the early Church had a distinct understanding of the concept of exaltation.If they understood that concept well, it must be that they also understood well the true concept of the nature of God.The third century Trinitarian doctrine concerning the nature of God does not fit in well with the very abundant NT concept of exaltation. One wonders why they were missing the doctrinal mark so badly by then.
Zakuska Posted March 27, 2009 Posted March 27, 2009 And to cross reference it with another relevant reference...Matt 5:48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. The NT is a virtual treasure trove of references, both indirect and direct, of our literal, familial kinship with our Heavenly Father, and of His desire for us to become like Him.But remember... according to Christians this is Impossible, This is just God blowing in the wind to show us how puney and insignificant we really are.It means that we are imputed with His righteousness.1 Jn. 3: 33 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. ??? I thought Christ already made us pure???
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