Land Northward - geological changes at the crucifixion

[Sevenbak]

Firstly, the record in 3 Nephi 8:

11 And there was a great and terrible destruction in the land southward.

12 But behold, there was a more great and terrible destruction in the land northward; for behold, the awhole face of the land was changed, because of the tempest and the whirlwinds, and the thunderings and the lightnings, and the exceedingly great quaking of the whole earth;

13 And the ahighways were broken up, and the level roads were spoiled, and many smooth places became rough.

14 And many agreat and notable cities were bsunk, and many were cburned, and many were shaken till the buildings thereof had fallen to the earth, and the inhabitants thereof were slain, and the places were left desolate.

15 And there were some cities which remained; but the damage thereof was exceedingly great, and there were many in them who were slain.

16 And there were some who were carried away in the awhirlwind; and whither they went no man knoweth, save they know that they were carried away.

17 And thus the face of the whole earth became deformed, because of the tempests, and the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the quaking of the earth.

18 And behold, the rocks were rent in twain; they were broken up upon the face of the whole earth, insomuch that they were afound in broken fragments, and in seams and in cracks, upon all the face of the land.

Now, obviously many of the same features remained after, like the narrow neck, Desolation, etc, but how is the changing of the face of the Americas accounted in the geography debate?

[thesometimesaint]

Sevenbak:

I don't understand your question?

[Brant Gardner]

The question of what kinds of changes occurred is one of interpretation of a text. We make many assumptions of the text, often based on divorcing the text from any kind of known reality. If you read the text against the real world, it is much easier to understand.

Firstly, the record in 3 Nephi 8:

11 And there was a great and terrible destruction in the land southward.

12 But behold, there was a more great and terrible destruction in the land northward; for behold, the awhole face of the land was changed, because of the tempest and the whirlwinds, and the thunderings and the lightnings, and the exceedingly great quaking of the whole earth;

For some reason, I didn't notice the north/south indicator before. That is really interesting because the larger destructiveness from volcanic action around the time of Christ came in Central Mexico. Cuicuilco (one of the largest cities in the Central Basic) was covered with lava flow (a rather dramatic changing in the face of the land).

In spite of all of the known changes, however, north didn't become south, up wasn't down. The important information is that it was the face that had changed. They were surface issues. Roads were broken, but not reoriented.

13 And the ahighways were broken up, and the level roads were spoiled, and many smooth places became rough.

Quite possibly a scriptural reference to Isaiah as much as, if not more than, a reference to actual physical changes.

14 And many agreat and notable cities were bsunk, and many were cburned, and many were shaken till the buildings thereof had fallen to the earth, and the inhabitants thereof were slain, and the places were left desolate.

Note that the places were left desolate, but they didn't move to a different location. Image what Cuicuilco was like after the lava flow. Desolate would be a generous description. Still, everyone knew where it had been.

15 And there were some cities which remained; but the damage thereof was exceedingly great, and there were many in them who were slain.

16 And there were some who were carried away in the awhirlwind; and whither they went no man knoweth, save they know that they were carried away.

Those are some fairly normal descriptions that we have seen in modern disasters.

17 And thus the face of the whole earth became deformed, because of the tempests, and the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the quaking of the earth.

18 And behold, the rocks were rent in twain; they were broken up upon the face of the whole earth, insomuch that they were afound in broken fragments, and in seams and in cracks, upon all the face of the land.

The causes of altering the face of the earth are stated. There was clearly an earthquake because the rocks were broken and fell down. Tempests and thunderings and lightnings are all known. Each of these events has happened more than once in the history of the world and only the face of the earth changed. There are some really dramatic changes in the face of the earth. Mount St. Helen doesn't look the same any more, but it is in the same place. Cuicuilco requires jackhammers to be excavated from the lava, but it was never moved from its location.

The net result for geography isn't that we must understand that the geography was different, but that we must look for a geography that is capable of producing that kind of desstruction. I recomment Bart Kowallis' article:

Kowallis, Bart J. â??In the Thirty and Fourth Year: A Geologistâ??s View of the Great Destruction in 3 Nephi.â? BYU Studies 37, no. 3 (1997-98): 137-190.

[BCSpace]

Imho, the distances given in the BoM necessitate an LGT. Hence, the major changes that took place to that locality might not be easily detected in the low power wide angle view of a hypothetical orbiting satellite.

[thesometimesaint]

BCSpace:

Agreed.

[Sevenbak]

Sevenbak:

I don't understand your question?

How are the last 350 years after the land was changed taken into account, since we have a more limited recored of geological clues.

[Sevenbak]

Considering how many cities were sunk, and how many were buried, we don't have that info as to where they are. I guess what I'm asking is input on the difference in geography discussions before and after the Crucifixion.

Here's another interesting tidbit, this one is taken from Legrand Richards; "A Marvelous Work and a Wonder", which is a reprint from the original.

Typical of these traditions is the following Washoe Indian Legend which seems to have preserved the story of the disappearance of a great intermountain lake. This immense â??sheetâ? of water was called Lahontan. Its existence in the past is attested by the fossilized remains of animals that have been found in various parts of the basin, as well as by other unmistakable evidences. The Indian legend is related as follows:

Long time, heap long time. Maybe one hundred years, injun no sabe, white man sabe. My grandfatherâ??s father, he heap old man. Maybe two, three hundred years, me dunno, Carson Valley, Waso Valley, Truskee Valley, Long Valley, Pilamid Lake, Lubloc, eblywhere all water, plenty pish, plenty duck. Big pish too, now no see him no more, all go away, no come back.

Waso Injun, he lib big mountains (pointing to the Comstock and Pryramid range.) Sometime Wasu Injun take em boat go see piutee, maybe Piutee he take em boat go see Wasu Indian, Yash he good friend, all time.

Pointing to the Sierra to the west of Washoe Valley, the old Indian continued:

Big mountain all time pire, plenty â??boom, â??boom, heap smoke, injun heap flaid! Byme bye, one day, mountain heap smoke, heap noise, glound too much shake, Injun heap flaid, pall down, plenty cly. He sun ebly day come up. One day no come up, Injun no sabe, mountain heap smoke, glound plenty shake, wind blow, water heap mad. Maybe two, tlee day sun he no come, injun no eat, no sleep, all time, cly, cly. Yash, heap flaid. Byme by water make plenty noise, go plenty fast like Tlukee Liver; water go down, down, mountain come up, come up, plenty mud, plenty pish die, byme by sun come back over this mountain (pointing to the southeast) he go down ober there (pointing to the northwest.) Yash, white man sabe, injun no sabe,

Maybe two, tlee week, mud he dly up, Piutee, Washu Injun walk, no more boat. All water he go; maybe little water Pilamid Lake, Honey Lake, Wasu Lake, too much mountain, he come purty quick. Yash, injun no sabe, water big pish no come back. No see him no more.

Mrs. M. M. Garwood, Progressive West Magazine, reprinted in Deseret Semi-Weekly News, Feb. 5, 1906