Any new evidence for the historical account of the Book of Mormon?

[Analytics]

What would ancient Israelitish culture and belief look like when transferred by a tiny group of Israelites to the Americas and then, in all likelihood, integrated into cultures and civilizations that were already in place there? And then what sort of changes would we see as this Israelitish influence operated in total isolation from the Old World for 1,000 years?

Approaching this from the other side, what would The Book of Mormon look like if it was real history that described a tiny group of Israelites who traveled to the Americas and integrated into the cultures and civilizations that were already in place there?

[Areabird]

Approaching this from the other side, what would The Book of Mormon look like if it was real history that described a tiny group of Israelites who traveled to the Americas and integrated into the cultures and civilizations that were already in place there?

Yes. If there were already indigenous peoples here in the Americas, then the Lehits were likely swallowed by the residents. That at least would explain why you don't jewish DNA. But it doesn't explain why Joseph and Spence Kimball keep referring to the American indians as Lamanites. They aren't. They were swallowed up by the indigenous people (Chinese/Siberian/American Indians).

[poulsenll]

2. Any known cities from the Book of Mormon that correspond to cities in the Americas?

OK.

Cities and populated places come and go. The Iliad speaks of the city of Troy. It was long considered a myth until Sclieman using the geographic descriptions found in the text of the Iliad was able to find ruins that he mistakenly assumed to be the city described as Troy. Everyone believed him because it fit the described geography. The location was correct but the actual city was several sets of ruins below what he found. Because we have no continous record of occupations of the site we do not know what the later cities were named.

In the Old World we have Nahom and fortunately here we have a continous occupation record and can be confident that it had the same name in Lehi's day as it does now. Here also the Book of Mormon textual description fits the location in the right place. However, unlike with Troy, no one wants to accept this as evidence that the Book of Mormon is describing a real place. Instead they claim Joseph Smith found the description in some library and incorporated it into a fictioal account.

Unlike cities. geographical features (eg mountains, rivers and wilderness areas) tend to stay around for some time. There features and description tend to remain even though their names change with the language spoken by the inhabitants that live in the area. However. We are in a bit of luck though because in many areas, invading populations have named geographic features by glossing the previous cultures name with a name in their language that has a similar or close relationship to the previous name.

The book of Mormon describes the location of the Nephite records during Mormon's youth as hidden in the hill Shim. The Mayan word for corn is ixim pronounced ishim. Translated into English we have "hill shim" meaning "corn hill". The geographic description of the location of the Hill Shim is as follows.

1. Located in the Jaredite lands possibly near the Hill Cumorah.

2. The jaredite lands are described as located west of an eastern seashore.

3 If near the Hill Cumorah, it would be in a land of Many waters and fountains.

On the northern coastal plain of Veracruz, there is a city called Tepetzintla. Tepetzintla is a Nahuatl word meaning "Corn Hill" in English. The geography fits the description in the Book of Mormon The name also fits. Is it the hill described in the Book of Mormon? Is the city of "Troy" found by Schliwman the "Troy" described in the Iliad?

In the Book of Mormon we find an interesting bit of History. It seems that the Nephites, after soundly trouncing a group of Lamanites and apostate Nephites, chased them into the Nothwest, driving them into a wilderness named Hermounts. This wilderness is described as a place of wild man eating beasts. Sorenson and others place the Nephite culture in the Grijalva river basin. The isthmaus of Tehuantepec is foud to the northwest of this basin and is seperated from the Grijalva basin by a range of mountains on the eastern border of the isthmus. This mountainaous area called "barrancas" is almost totally unihabited even today. Matt Roper informed me that natives will not go into the area for fear of the man eating beasts.

Now let us look at the name of this area. Tehuantepec is a Nahuatl word composed of Tecuani and tepec. Tepec translates to hill or mountains and tecuani translats to man eating beast or in other words Tehuantepec is the hill of the man eating beast and the barrancas (wilderness) of Thuantepec are the wilderness of the man eating beast.

So, in addition to Jerusalem and Nahom in the old world, we have Shim and Hermounts in the new world. All in locations fitting the textual descriptions of geography found in the Book of Mormon.

Larry P

[Stargazer]

OK.

Cities and populated places come and go. The Iliad speaks of the city of Troy. It was long considered a myth until Sclieman using the geographic descriptions found in the text of the Iliad was able to find ruins that he mistakenly assumed to be the city described as Troy. Everyone believed him because it fit the described geography. The location was correct but the actual city was several sets of ruins below what he found. Because we have no continous record of occupations of the site we do not know what the later cities were named.

In the Old World we have Nahom and fortunately here we have a continous occupation record and can be confident that it had the same name in Lehi's day as it does now. Here also the Book of Mormon textual description fits the location in the right place. However, unlike with Troy, no one

[snip]

Now let us look at the name of this area. Tehuantepec is a Nahuatl word composed of Tecuani and tepec. Tepec translates to hill or mountains and tecuani translats to man eating beast or in other words Tehuantepec is the hill of the man eating beast and the barrancas (wilderness) of Thuantepec are the wilderness of the man eating beast.

So, in addition to Jerusalem and Nahom in the old world, we have Shim and Hermounts in the new world. All in locations fitting the textual descriptions of geography found in the Book of Mormon.

Larry P

Very very interesting! Thanks for posting that! Billy will surely be impressed.

[Billy]

Very very interesting! Thanks for posting that! Billy will surely be impressed.

I am surprised that nobody has brought up Izapa Stela 5 (or if they did I missed it)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izapa_Stela_5

"Izapa Stela 5 is one of a number of large, carved stelae found in the ancient Mesoamerican site of Izapa, in the Soconusco region of Chiapas along the present-day Guatemalan border. These stelae date from roughly 300 BCE to 50 or 100 BCE,[1] although some argue for dates as late as 250 CE.[2]

Also known as the "Tree of Life" stone,[3] the complex religious imagery of Izapa Stela 5 has led to different theories and speculations concerning its subject matter, particularly those involving Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact. Though discovered and documented first in the 1930s, the stone is particularly noteworthy because of the controversy created by the proposition by Professor M. Wells Jakeman in 1953 that the stone was a record of the Book of Mormon tree of life vision.[4]"

I think that you have to be careful to avoid taking evidence and making it fit your preconceived ideas.

[beastie]

And they very well could have. But we may not yet have the capacity to recognize those footprints for what they are.

LGT is dependent upon the idea that the Lehites were immediately subsumed within the larger host culture, and that is the reason we canâ??t recognize those â??footprintsâ?. The problem is that the society described in the BoM is socially complex, with different social classes as well as layers of bureaucracy. It describes a powerful polity that extended a certain amount of political control on many other polities, some at quite a distance. In fact, I believe that analysis of the number of polities described, using Sorensonâ??s suggested map, shows that the Nephite polity would actually rival the later Aztecs in size and power.

Of course, scholars do not believe this type of polity even existed during the BoM time frame. If evidence of such a powerful polity would be found one day, it will only underline the current fundamental problem with this theory â?? the polity described in the BoM would have been the most powerful polity in Mesoamerica. It is inconceivable that the most powerful polity in Mesoamerica would not have had a significant impact on the political, social, and religious evolution of the region.

What we actually see in ancient Mesoamerica is the influence of powerful polities on less powerful polities. The most powerful set the tone for the rest of the region. The most powerful established the highly successful notion of the Holy Lord â?? the complete enmeshment of religion and politics. If the most powerful polity in Mesoamerica had actually been Judeo-Christian, the resultant cultural evolution of the area would have been completely different than what we actually see.

This is just a brief summary of the problem, which I outline in more detail in these two essays on my website:

http://mormonmesoamerica.com/holylord.htm

This essay discusses the complete enmeshment of religion and politics, and how the evolution of ancient Mesoamerica was clearly heavily influenced by powerful polities who established the precedent.

http://mormonmesoamerica.com/politiesandpower.htm

This essay discusses the type of polity described within the BoM and the various Mesoamerican polities suggested for that polity.

[robuchan]

OK.

Cities and populated places come and go. The Iliad speaks of the city of Troy. It was long considered a myth until Sclieman using the geographic descriptions found in the text of the Iliad was able to find ruins that he mistakenly assumed to be the city described as Troy. Everyone believed him because it fit the described geography. The location was correct but the actual city was several sets of ruins below what he found. Because we have no continous record of occupations of the site we do not know what the later cities were named.

In the Old World we have Nahom and fortunately here we have a continous occupation record and can be confident that it had the same name in Lehi's day as it does now. Here also the Book of Mormon textual description fits the location in the right place. However, unlike with Troy, no one wants to accept this as evidence that the Book of Mormon is describing a real place. Instead they claim Joseph Smith found the description in some library and incorporated it into a fictioal account.

Unlike cities. geographical features (eg mountains, rivers and wilderness areas) tend to stay around for some time. There features and description tend to remain even though their names change with the language spoken by the inhabitants that live in the area. However. We are in a bit of luck though because in many areas, invading populations have named geographic features by glossing the previous cultures name with a name in their language that has a similar or close relationship to the previous name.

The book of Mormon describes the location of the Nephite records during Mormon's youth as hidden in the hill Shim. The Mayan word for corn is ixim pronounced ishim. Translated into English we have "hill shim" meaning "corn hill". The geographic description of the location of the Hill Shim is as follows.

1. Located in the Jaredite lands possibly near the Hill Cumorah.

2. The jaredite lands are described as located west of an eastern seashore.

3 If near the Hill Cumorah, it would be in a land of Many waters and fountains.

On the northern coastal plain of Veracruz, there is a city called Tepetzintla. Tepetzintla is a Nahuatl word meaning "Corn Hill" in English. The geography fits the description in the Book of Mormon The name also fits. Is it the hill described in the Book of Mormon? Is the city of "Troy" found by Schliwman the "Troy" described in the Iliad?

In the Book of Mormon we find an interesting bit of History. It seems that the Nephites, after soundly trouncing a group of Lamanites and apostate Nephites, chased them into the Nothwest, driving them into a wilderness named Hermounts. This wilderness is described as a place of wild man eating beasts. Sorenson and others place the Nephite culture in the Grijalva river basin. The isthmaus of Tehuantepec is foud to the northwest of this basin and is seperated from the Grijalva basin by a range of mountains on the eastern border of the isthmus. This mountainaous area called "barrancas" is almost totally unihabited even today. Matt Roper informed me that natives will not go into the area for fear of the man eating beasts.

Now let us look at the name of this area. Tehuantepec is a Nahuatl word composed of Tecuani and tepec. Tepec translates to hill or mountains and tecuani translats to man eating beast or in other words Tehuantepec is the hill of the man eating beast and the barrancas (wilderness) of Thuantepec are the wilderness of the man eating beast.

So, in addition to Jerusalem and Nahom in the old world, we have Shim and Hermounts in the new world. All in locations fitting the textual descriptions of geography found in the Book of Mormon.

Larry P

Thanks. Interesting material.

[poulsenll]

I am surprised that nobody has brought up Izapa Stela 5 (or if they did I missed it)

I think that you have to be careful to avoid taking evidence and making it fit your preconceived ideas.

Billy

I agree. The Izapa V stone, in my opinion, was not carved as a result of Lehi's dream. Careful reading of the Book of Mormon willl show that Lehi's "tree of Life" was a based on the post resurrection and atonement period. In his dream there are no cherubin or flaming sword guarding the way to the tree. In fact it is just the opposite and depicts a tree and frueit that is available to all who adhere to the Iron Rod and are not led away by the inticement of those in the great and spacious building. The Izapa carving clearly shows the presence of two bird like guardians (possibly cherubin). In addition there is a fierce bird located at the top of the tree. The fierce bird is a common motif in all Mayan tree of life iconography. If anything the Izapa stone is related to the "post fall" tree of life in the Genesis Garden of Eden.

Larry P

[poulsenll]

It is the 'it came to pass' glyph found at Pelenque. It is also interesting that Joseph Smith named this as a place that was a book of mormon location at one time.

Not only is it the same phrase but it serves the same gramatical function in Mayan writing as it does in the Book of Mormon. Glyphic languages share a common feature oral histories, they have no punctuation marks. The oral historian punctuates by pauses and expressions however the glyphic writer cannot do this. Both in the BofM and in Mayan writing, this phrase serves as a paragraph break. A similar phrase is found in the Hebrew language scriptures. I suspect, though I have no evidence, that the use of different types of glyphs for the same word may have served a similar function as the oral historian's use of expression and word emphasis.

Larry P

[beastie]

Mainstream Mesoamerican scholars see no reason to connect Stela 5 with Judeo-Christianity at all. It is completely consistent with mesoamerican mythology and religious worldview. Page 98 of this text describes the meaning of Stela 5. It has nothing to do with the Bible or the Book of Mormon. It has to do with Mesoamerican mythology - of course.http://books.google.com/books?id=bu2Nn_9m-...result#PPA98,M1

Not only is it the same phrase but it serves the same gramatical function in Mayan writing as it does in the Book of Mormon. Glyphic languages share a common feature oral histories, they have no punctuation marks. The oral historian punctuates by pauses and expressions however the glyphic writer cannot do this. Both in the BofM and in Mayan writing, this phrase serves as a paragraph break. A similar phrase is found in the Hebrew language scriptures. I suspect, though I have no evidence, that the use of different types of glyphs for the same word may have served a similar function as the oral historian's use of expression and word emphasis.

The BoM was written in "reformed egyptian", not Mayan.Wouldn't most - if not all - languages have some sort of semantic/grammatical function that indicates passage of time?

[Cold Steel]

Why do you feel that there are lots of things that help support the history of the Bible, but little (to none) that support the Book of Mormon? (Things like people, places, ancient manuscripts) Do you feel that God may be hiding the evidence?

What is your motivation for asking this question?

You do realize, don't you, that there are books out there on these topics, as well as websites? If I were going to go to a Catholic forum, I would expect to read a number of books if I wanted to have an intelligent discussion. By just coming to a board like this and throwing out a question that's been addressed many, many times, you indicate, at least to me, that you either don't feel the need to read books that address these questions, or, more likely, you just assume there is no such evidence.

Have you, for example, read Jeff Lindsay's site on Book of Mormon evidences? Or Kerry Shirt's Backyard Professor? Or Lawrence Poulsen's Book of Mormon Geography?

It would be one thing if you were brand new here, Billy, but you've been around enough time to know there are resources you should be familiar with if you're going to be raising the types of topics you frequently raise. You've seen the ongoing discussions about Nahom, the Lehi trail, Bountiful, chiasmus, the Book of Mormon witnesses, Book of Mormon geography, and much more. Many of the things you request have been extensively covered by Hugh Nibley in his writings and speeches (many of his speeches can be downloaded FREE at the BYU Audio in .mp3 format), as well as LDS scholars through FAIR and FARMS. In the days of Joseph Smith, no Jew that anyone knew of had sealed up any kind of writing to come forth at a later time, on gold plates or on papyrus. Isn't it significant that the entire library known as the Dead Sea Scrolls were based on that very idea. There are dozens and dozens of evidences discussed on this board. Don't tell me you missed them all!

Unless I'm mistaken, no evidence will be good enough for you, so why do you continue playing these games? Have you actually read any LDS books or articles?

[Areabird]

If the evidence is really so clear then why isn't the world beating a path to our door?

[beastie]

Here's just one example of the extended political control the Nephites exercised:

1 Now it came to pass that when those Lamanites who had gone to war against the Nephites had found, after their many struggles to destroy them, that it was in vain to seek their destruction, they returned again to the land of Nephi.

2 And it came to pass that the Amalekites, because of their loss, were exceedingly angry. And when they saw that they could not seek revenge from the Nephites, they began to stir up the people in anger against their brethren, the people of Anti-Nephi-Lehi; therefore they began again to destroy them.

3 Now this people again refused to take their arms, and they suffered themselves to be slain according to the desires of their enemies.

4 Now when Ammon and his brethren saw this work of destruction among those whom they so dearly beloved, and among those who had so dearly beloved themâ??for they were treated as though they were angels sent from God to save them from everlasting destructionâ??therefore, when Ammon and his brethren saw this great work of destruction, they were moved with compassion, and they said unto the king:

5 Let us gather together this people of the Lord, and let us go down to the land of Zarahemla to our brethren the Nephites, and flee out of the hands of our enemies, that we be not destroyed.

21 And it came to pass that the chief judge sent a proclamation throughout all the land, desiring the voice of the people concerning the admitting their brethren, who were the people of Anti-Nephi-Lehi.

22 And it came to pass that the voice of the people came, saying: Behold, we will give up the land of Jershon, which is on the east by the sea, which joins the land Bountiful, which is on the south of the land Bountiful; and this land Jershon is the land which we will give unto our brethren for an inheritance.

23 And behold, we will set our armies between the land Jershon and the land Nephi, that we may protect our brethren in the land Jershon; and this we do for our brethren, on account of their fear to take up arms against their brethren lest they should commit sin; and this their great fear came because of their sore repentance which they had, on account of their many murders and their awful wickedness.

Alma, Chapter 27

The significance of this section is that the city of Zarahemla apparently had enough control over the land of Jershon that they could â??giveâ? the converted Lamanites this land. Again, referring to Mathenyâ??s map and the map of modern Chiapas, Jershon would have been approximately 160 miles away from Zarahemla. Once again, while Mesoamerican scholars may disagree on some points regarding the type of polities that existed in ancient Mesoamerica, it is not even within the realm of discussion to imagine one city having that type of control over another area 160 miles away. No Mesoamerican polity, during that time period, could have extended such control over such a large region, much less the moiety of Santa Rosa. The only feasible imperial candidate for such a feat would be the Aztecs, and, of course, they came on the scene a thousand years too late.

Again, if the polity described in the BoM really did exist in ancient Mesoamerica, and yet left no recognizable footprint, it would be akin to suggesting that it would be reasonable for the Aztecs to have left no recognizable footprint.

One more example of the Nephite's extended control:

Additional verses provide more information about the power Zarahemla exerted. Later in the book of Alma, the Lamanites wage war against the Nephites, and Moroni is at the head of the Nephite army, around BC 67. Note the various Nephite cities mentioned in this campaign, in addition to the aforementioned Jershon, on the coast:

22 Behold, now it came to pass that they durst not come against the Nephites in the borders of Jershon; therefore they departed out of the land of Antionum into the wilderness, and took their journey round about in the wilderness, away by the head of the river Sidon, that they might come into the land of Manti and take possession of the land; for they did not suppose that the armies of Moroni would know whither they had gone.

Alma 43

1 And now it came to pass in the eleventh month of the nineteenth year, on the tenth day of the month, the armies of the Lamanites were seen approaching towards the land of Ammonihah.

2 And behold, the city had been rebuilt, and Moroni had stationed an army by the borders of the city, and they had cast up dirt round about to shield them from the arrows and the stones of the Lamanites; for behold, they fought with stones and with arrows.

Alma 49

12 Therefore they retreated into the wilderness, and took their camp and marched towards the land of Noah, supposing that to be the next best place for them to come against the Nephites.

13 For they knew not that Moroni had fortified, or had built forts of security, for every city in all the land round about; therefore, they marched forward to the land of Noah with a firm determination; yea, their chief captains came forward and took an oath that they would destroy the people of that city.

14 But behold, to their astonishment, the city of Noah, which had hitherto been a weak place, had now, by the means of Moroni, become strong, yea, even to exceed the strength of the city Ammonihah.

15 And now, behold, this was wisdom in Moroni; for he had supposed that they would be frightened at the city Ammonihah; and as the city of Noah had hitherto been the weakest part of the land, therefore they would march thither to battle; and thus it was according to his desires.

Alma 49

1 And now it came to pass that Moroni did not stop making preparations for war, or to defend his people against the Lamanites; for he caused that his armies should commence in the commencement of the twentieth year of the reign of the judges, that they should commence in digging up heaps of earth round about all the cities, throughout all the land which was possessed by the Nephites.

2 And upon the top of these ridges of earth he caused that there should be timbers, yea, works of timbers built up to the height of a man, round about the cities.

3 And he caused that upon those works of timbers there should be a frame of pickets built upon the timbers round about; and they were strong and high.

4 And he caused towers to be erected that overlooked those works of pickets, and he caused places of security to be built upon those towers, that the stones and the arrows of the Lamanites could not hurt them.

5 And they were prepared that they could cast stones from the top thereof, according to their pleasure and their strength, and slay him who should attempt to approach near the walls of the city.

6 Thus Moroni did prepare strongholds against the coming of their enemies, round about every city in all the land.

7 And it came to pass that Moroni caused that his armies should go forth into the east wilderness; yea, and they went forth and drove all the Lamanites who were in the east wilderness into their own lands, which were south of the land of Zarahemla.

8 And the land of Nephi did run in a straight course from the east sea to the west.

9 And it came to pass that when Moroni had driven all the Lamanites out of the east wilderness, which was north of the lands of their own possessions, he caused that the inhabitants who were in the land of Zarahemla and in the land round about should go forth into the east wilderness, even to the borders by the seashore, and possess the land.

10 And he also placed armies on the south, in the borders of their possessions, and caused them to erect fortifications that they might secure their armies and their people from the hands of their enemies.

11 And thus he cut off all the strongholds of the Lamanites in the east wilderness, yea, and also on the west, fortifying the line between the Nephites and the Lamanites, between the land of Zarahemla and the land of Nephi, from the west sea, running by the head of the river Sidonâ??the Nephites possessing all the land northward, yea, even all the land which was northward of the land Bountiful, according to their pleasure.

12 Thus Moroni, with his armies, which did increase daily because of the assurance of protection which his works did bring forth unto them, did seek to cut off the strength and the power of the Lamanites from off the lands of their possessions, that they should have no power upon the lands of their possession.

13 And it came to pass that the Nephites began the foundation of a city, and they called the name of the city Moroni; and it was by the east sea; and it was on the south by the line of the possessions of the Lamanites.

14 And they also began a foundation for a city between the city of Moroni and the city of Aaron, joining the borders of Aaron and Moroni; and they called the name of the city, or the land, Nephihah.

15 And they also began in that same year to build many cities on the north, one in a particular manner which they called Lehi, which was in the north by the borders of the seashore.

16 And thus ended the twentieth year.

17 And in these prosperous circumstances were the people of Nephi in the commencement of the twenty and first year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi.

18 And they did prosper exceedingly, and they became exceedingly rich; yea, and they did multiply and wax strong in the land.

Alma 50

The capital city of Zarahemla exerted a great deal of control over the other polities that extended throughout the entire region demonstrated earlier on the map showing the general region in question. Again, utilizing mapquest along with Mathenyâ??s map, I roughly approximate the area under Nephite control to be 75,000 square miles.

Santa Rosa aside, there is simply no ancient Mesoamerican polity that had this type of power. It rivals that of the Aztec Empire, which stretched over 80,000 square miles. Regardless of whatever disagreements Mesoamerican scholars may have regarding super-states versus peer polities, not a single one suggests that such an empire existed during the Book of Mormon time frame.

Again, suggesting that such a polity existed and left no recognizable footprint is the equivalent of asserting that the Aztecs could have reasonably left no recognizable footprint, or that one day future archaeologists would argue that the United States could have existed and left no recognizable footprint. I choose the US not because its size is equivalent, obviously, but because it is the most powerful polity in the world (more or less). In the Mesoamerican world, if the Nephite polity had existed, it would have been the most powerful polity in that world.

[lostindc]

Beastie,

You are so full of crap. The reaches you are making are ridiculous much like you continuing to post on this board. You need to calm down, relax, read a book, watch some tv, get out for a little bit, perhaps take in some cuisine, and realize that it is going to be alright. You are going to be alright. I am sure someone out there likes you...

[Billy]

What is your motivation for asking this question? . . .Unless I'm mistaken, no evidence will be good enough for you, so why do you continue playing these games?

Here is my question

Why do you feel that there are lots of things that help support the history of the Bible, but little (to none) that support the Book of Mormon? (Things like people, places, ancient manuscripts) Do you feel that God may be hiding the evidence?

I am not playing games as you suggest, I am asking a simple question, and I think it is a fair question. Why is there so much more evidence to support the history of the Bible and not the Book of Mormon? And thanks for bringing it up again, because I don't think anybody has really answered my question.

[beastie]

You are so full of crap. The reaches you are making are ridiculous much like you continuing to post on this board. You need to calm down, relax, read a book, watch some tv, get out for a little bit, perhaps take in some cuisine, and realize that it is going to be alright. You are going to be alright. I am sure someone out there likes you...

The fact that all you can do is to attack me personally speaks volumes.

In fact, I am quite calm, I often relax, I read many books, I watch TV, I go out and have fun regularly along with enjoying cuisine. I have a loving family and a network of friends. Lots of people like me, and many love me. What is odd is that you, based on nothing more than my criticism of the historicity of the BoM on a board that allows such exchanges, seem to think that you can determine I am a wildly unhappy and frustrated person. Since this isn't the first time you've done this to me, I assume this is your "thing". Rather than address the specifics of my assertions and showing how they are "ridiculous", instead you make unwarranted and bizarre assertions about my personal life. As I said, that speaks volumes.

[lostindc]

Here is my questionWhy do you feel that there are lots of things that help support the history of the Bible, but little (to none) that support the Book of Mormon? (Things like people, places, ancient manuscripts) Do you feel that God may be hiding the evidence?I am not playing games as you suggest, I am asking a simple question, and I think it is a fair question. Why is there so much more evidence to support the history of the Bible and not the Book of Mormon? And thanks for bringing it up again, because I don't think anybody has really answered my question.

If you cannot accept the fact that gringo scholars have only been working on it for less than 200 years and scholars who actually care whether it relates to the BOM or not have been working on it for less than 100 years and of those 100 years only a small fraction of those years have been spent on site then I guess you can come to your own conclusions. Additionally, to say there is no evidence is to say that George Washington never existed. You do not want to see the evidence. Instead of wasting your time denying evidence on this board, why dont you get out and volunteer and help your fellow man? Perhaps instead of spending your time in places where Mormons are perhaps you can go to hell (aka Cleveland) because there are no Mormons there. Or maybe you can join a different message board such as CARM where you folks can sit and focus all your time on why Mormonism is wrong.

The fact that all you can do is to attack me personally speaks volumes. In fact, I am quite calm, I often relax, I read many books, I watch TV, I go out and have fun regularly along with enjoying cuisine. I have a loving family and a network of friends. Lots of people like me, and many love me. What is odd is that you, based on nothing more than my criticism of the historicity of the BoM on a board that allows such exchanges, seem to think that you can determine I am a wildly unhappy and frustrated person. Since this isn't the first time you've done this to me, I assume this is your "thing". Rather than address the specifics of my assertions and showing how they are "ridiculous", instead you make unwarranted and bizarre assertions about my personal life. As I said, that speaks volumes.

Reread your post and tell me you are not frustrated. The last time I visited a Muslim board to tell them that their scripture was wrong, was well never. This speaks volumes about you....

BTW, you have been addressed over and over again, yet you keep pushing it, you are an angry person and I have little evidence to believe otherwise, just look at the history of your posts.

[James Banta]

If you cannot accept the fact that gringo scholars have only been working on it for less than 200 years and scholars who actually care whether it relates to the BOM or not have been working on it for less than 100 years and of those 100 years only a small fraction of those years have been spent on site then I guess you can come to your own conclusions. Additionally, to say there is no evidence is to say that George Washington never existed. You do not want to see the evidence. Instead of wasting your time denying evidence on this board, why dont you get out and volunteer and help your fellow man? Perhaps instead of spending your time in places where Mormons are perhaps you can go to hell (aka Cleveland) because there are no Mormons there. Or maybe you can join a different message board such as CARM where you folks can sit and focus all your time on why Mormonism is wrong.Reread your post and tell me you are not frustrated. The last time I visited a Muslim board to tell them that their scripture was wrong, was well never. This speaks volumes about you....

BTW, you have been addressed over and over again, yet you keep pushing it, you are an angry person and I have little evidence to believe otherwise, just look at the history of your posts.

We are here in obedience to the command of our Lord Jesus both to His Apostles and through them..

Matthew 28:19-20

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jude 1:3

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

If this isn't why you are here as well, just why do you bother to come here, and why do you bother to post? AS for me I will obey my Lord commandment and bring His word to you and anyone who will listen.. Jesus is the Way, no man comes to the Father by ANY OTHER WAY.. Only through Jesus.. No baptism, no laying on of hands, no church work, no priesthoods, not even enduring to the end is the way to God.. It's Jesus ONLY PLUS NOTHING, without claiming Him as your ONLY way to God you will never achieve that goal.. IHS jim

[lostindc]

We are here in obedience to the command of our Lord Jesus both to His Apostles and through them..

Matthew 28:19-20

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jude 1:3

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

If this isn't why you are here as well, just why do you bother to come here, and why do you bother to post? AS for me I will obey my Lord commandment and bring His word to you and anyone who will listen.. Jesus is the Way, no man comes to the Father by ANY OTHER WAY.. Only through Jesus.. No baptism, no laying on of hands, no church work, no priesthoods, not even enduring to the end is the way to God.. It's Jesus ONLY PLUS NOTHING, without claiming Him as your ONLY way to God you will never achieve that goal.. IHS jim

Thanks Jon, I have no problem with that, these are great scriptures and this is a much more civil approach.

[Billy]

If you cannot accept the fact that gringo scholars have only been working on it for less than 200 years and scholars who actually care whether it relates to the BOM or not have been working on it for less than 100 years. . .

200 years is a fairly long time to be looking, especially if you are trying to pin down only one city, or manuscript etc. How long do you think that they need to find some of this stuff? Especially in light of the Book of Mormon passage Mormon 1:7 which suggests that this was a widespread population with buildings that covered the land and people "as numerous almost, as it were the sand of the sea."

Morm. 1: 7

7 The whole face of the land had become covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous almost, as it were the sand of the sea.

Perhaps instead of spending your time in places where Mormons are perhaps you can go to hell (aka Cleveland) because there are no Mormons there.

That would defeat the purpose. I think that LDS is a false religion, if I tell this to non LDS, I would be singing to the choir.

[beastie]

lostindc,

I find your personal assertions bizarre and unworthy of further response.

BTW, I'm an atheist. I couldn't care less if mormons believe the BoM is a spiritual document inspired by God. I only care about the historicity issue, and I care about that because of the frequent misleading statements apologists have made in the past.

Poulsen is a good example on this thread. There is no reason to place the mythology of the Izapa stela within a Judeo-Christian context. All the imagery on the stela is well understood and supported within Mesoamerica mythology. To ignore the unique religion and mythology of the ancient Mesoamericans and to try and paste Judeo Christianity on top of it is quite insulting to these people and their own unique heritage. It would be like some future culture digging up mormon artifacts and pasting their own non-mormon, nonJudeo-Christian interpretation on top of it.

Or, to allow the expert on the stela to speak:

Mainstream Mesoamerican scholars do not support linking Izapa Stela 5 to the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or an "out of Africa" theory. For example, Julia Guernsey Kappelman, author of a definitive work on Izapan culture, finds that Jakeman's research "belies an obvious religious agenda that ignored Izapa Stela 5's heritage".[16]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izapa_Stela_5

[lostindc]

lostindc,I find your personal assertions bizarre and unworthy of further response.BTW, I'm an atheist. I couldn't care less if mormons believe the BoM is a spiritual document inspired by God. I only care about the historicity issue, and I care about that because of the frequent misleading statements apologists have made in the past.Poulsen is a good example on this thread. There is no reason to place the mythology of the Izapa stela within a Judeo-Christian context. All the imagery on the stela is well understood and supported within Mesoamerica mythology. To ignore the unique religion and mythology of the ancient Mesoamericans and to try and paste Judeo Christianity on top of it is quite insulting to these people and their own unique heritage. It would be like some future culture digging up mormon artifacts and pasting their own non-mormon, nonJudeo-Christian interpretation on top of it. Or, to allow the expert on the stela to speak:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izapa_Stela_5

You are still going, it is rather amazing, like a rat that chews off his own leg when stuck in a trap we, that being the board, are witnessing an absolute breakdown. For a person who "couldn't care less" it is surprising the amount of time you have spent on this message board. I think you care, very much. Maybe we should have a new board for people who could care less about Mormons yet spend large portions of their time focusing on Mormons. I would imagine the board to be very lively.

You are still going, it is rather amazing, like a rat that chews off his own leg when stuck in a trap we, that being the board, are witnessing an absolute breakdown. For a person who "couldn't care less" it is surprising the amount of time you have spent on this message board. I think you care, very much. Maybe we should have a new board for people who could care less about Mormons yet spend large portions of their time focusing on Mormons. I would imagine the board to be very lively.

I also want to say thanks to all those who could care less about Mormonism but still come by and post on this board, thanks

[beastie]

You are still going, it is rather amazing, like a rat that chews off his own leg when stuck in a trap we, that being the board, are witnessing an absolute breakdown. For a person who "couldn't care less" it is surprising the amount of time you have spent on this message board. I think you care, very much. Maybe we should have a new board for people who could care less about Mormons yet spend large portions of their time focusing on Mormons. I would imagine the board to be very lively.

I was quite specific about what I care about. My comments have all been addressed towards the issue of the BoM historicity, not its worth as a spiritual document or communication from God.

If you were unable to comprehend my post, which was quite clear, there's little I can do about that. Your seeming inability to do so does help me understand your posting style, however.

[smac97]

Approaching this from the other side, what would The Book of Mormon look like if it was real history that described a tiny group of Israelites who traveled to the Americas and integrated into the cultures and civilizations that were already in place there?

Whence the obfuscation?

-Smac

[lostindc]

I was quite specific about what I care about. My comments have all been addressed towards the issue of the BoM historicity, not its worth as a spiritual document or communication from God.

If you were unable to comprehend my post, which was quite clear, there's little I can do about that. Your seeming inability to do so does help me understand your posting style, however.

Terrible communication skills is not clever. The facts of what has arisen from your statements is that you cannot get enough of being around Mormons. You have a strong desire to post on a Mormon message board and I can only imagine what you are like in the face of Mormons.

So please reiterate why you are here if you could care less about Mormonism. You are starting to sound like a lunatic and I enjoy when you put your foot in your mouth thus I desire for you to continue posting.