Joseph Smith's Martyrdom

[aletheia]

He was killed because of his faith and belief in the mormon faith. If he had been a baptist, or a catholic, or a methodist etc he would not have suffered persecution. He wouldn't have any enemies. Where in American history do we see Christians being persecuted? Joseph Smith also went down fighting unlike the apostles who were persecuted for their faith and belief in Christ. So if LDS want to try to group Joseph with the martyrs of Pauls day they are gonna have difficulty redefining what a martyr is.

From about 1820 - present.

[Mudcat]

How would you think Christ would want you to go down? Swinging or Forgiving?

I guess this is my point.

Regards,

Sentinus

Its a good point.

I guess my point is, that if someone kills you because of your faith, then regardless of your resistance to that death you are a martyr.

Just to put some cognitive dissonance in the equation Sentinus, I have one more hypothetical.

You are married, with two small children. Your family knows Christ, all of them.

100 soldiers have come to take you and your family to the torture chamber before they kill you.

You have a weapon. Do you forgive them and surrender yourself and your family?

Does what you do impact whether you are a martyr since the situation is hopeless?

[Sentinus]

Did I miss something? Or for future reference is this your way of acknowleding my response?

Regards,

Sentinus

[Mudcat]

Did I miss something? Or for future reference is this your way of acknowleding my response?

Regards,

Sentinus

It was a goof.. I mishit a button... and then I said to myself, "Oh crap, I posted a response that said nothing... how stupid of me. Better think of something to say quick.... BTW not my best work, but oh well"

[wenglund]

How so?

Regards,Sentinus

I am not sure how familiar you are with the uncommon history of legal actions brought against Joseph from the 1830's to his death at Carthage or whether you were aware of avowed enemies of the Church publically declaring that they would use legal harrassment as a way of persecuting the Church, or the transparent religious and political motives behind many of the legal actions, but to provide just a brief precident for the use of legal pretense in getting Joseph to Carthage for reasons other than what was being charged, this was recorded as early as October 5th of 1842:

Elder Rigdon called Elder William Clayton into his office, and said he had some matters to make known. He had been at Carthage and had conversation with Judge Douglas concerning Governor Carlin's proceedings, &c., and had ascertained that Carlin had intentionally issued an illegal writ, expecting thereby to draw President Joseph to Carthage to get acquitted by habeas corpus before Douglas, and having men there waiting with a legal writ to serve on Joseph as soon as he was released under the other one, and bear him away to Missouri, without further ceremony. Elder Rigdon asked what power the governor's proclamation gave to any man or set of men who might be disposed to take President Joseph. He was answered, "Just the same power and authority which a legal warrant gave to an officer." (History of the Church, Vol.5, Ch.9, p.168)

There were several reports over the years of mobs being formed in Carthage with the intent of doing violence against the Church leaders. And, in September of 1844 (the year Joseph was killed), this was recorded:

Same day.---Reports concerning the movement of the mob who are making preparations for what they call a `wolf hunt' on the 26th and 27th of this month. * * * They design coming and attempting to drag some more authorities of the church out to Carthage to murder them." (History of the Church, Vol.7, Introduction, p.28)

But, to get a good sense for the complex, religiously-embroiled context of the whole affair as descerned even from a non-LDS perspective, may I suggest reading Governor Ford's justification for placement of hostile forces at Carthage (see: History of the Church, Vol.7, Ch.2, beginning on page 11--it is too lengthy to post here).

I hope this helps.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[hagoth7]

And, in September of 1844 (the year befor Joseph was killed), this was recorded:

?

1844 was the year Joseph was killed. ?

So did you mean to say "September of 1843"?

Or "September of 1844 (the year Joseph was killed")?

[Sentinus]

Its a good point.

I guess my point is, that if someone kills you because of your faith, then regardless of your resistance to that death you are a martyr.

Just to put some cognitive dissonance in the equation Sentinus, I have one more hypothetical.

You are married, with two small children. Your family knows Christ, all of them.

100 soldiers have come to take you and your family to the torture chamber before they kill you.

You have a weapon. Do you forgive them and surrender yourself and your family?

Does what you do impact whether you are a martyr since the situation is hopeless?

For the hypothetical. I am clearly dead either way 100 vs 1 (Possibly 5 my wife and kids may be pretty tough )

Assuming these men are not Christian, I would still do nothing. If I killed any of them they would most likely end up in Hell, it would be far better for me knowing I am saved to use my last breath trying bring another lost soul to Christ (hopefully), if not through my words hopefully in my actions. I would instruct my family to do the same.

I would not consider myself a martyr for my family if I died fighting to defend, however I definately don't feel that fighting back is wrong. I think in the end its not a case of right or wrong etc. But more a case of good and better.

Regards,

Sentinus

[lostindc]

To say that Joseph was not martyred is rather silly and basically tells myself and others that you have not read much into the subject. Or you have a chip on your shoulder...

[Sentinus]

To say that Joseph was not martyred is rather silly and basically tells myself and others that you have not read much into the subject. Or you have a chip on your shoulder...

You assume much. The term seems to be extremely relative to interpretation, we don't see things the same way, but that definately doesn't make me or you silly or ignorant. As for the chip on my shoulder do Cool ranch Doritos count?

Regards,

Sentinus

[lostindc]

You assume much. The term seems to be extremely relative to interpretation, we don't see things the same way, but that definately doesn't make me or you silly or ignorant. As for the chip on my shoulder do Cool ranch Doritos count?

Regards,

Sentinus

no, cool ranch does not count, funny you would pick that flavor, I was looking for the run of mill cheese doritos and all they had were cool ranch, I am not that much of a fan...

[annewandering]

Neither Abraham Lincoln or Martin Luther King has a chance to fight back. Do you feel they wouldn't have if given a chance to fight? Or that they wouldn't have been martyrs if they had?

[Anijen]

Since we are all doing hypotheticals;

What would Jesus do (WWJD) if he came back and people came to kill him? I imagine there would be plenty of enemies around. So the Savior comes back would he just give up his life again? I meant his first time was sufficient. If Jesus was a pacifist (a theory I disagree with) he would be going against his own teachings to raise a hand in his own defense. Seriously the pacifist argument is weak. I believe Mudcat said it the best when he said;

Mudcat

if someone kills you because of your faith, then regardless of your resistance to that death you are a martyr.

[USU78]

So if LDS want to try to group Joseph with the martyrs of Pauls day they are gonna have difficulty redefining what a martyr is.

You mean the cult of death amongst early Christians that brought so much comment during the 2nd and 3rd Centuries C.E.?

No. I suppose you're right. He didn't seek death as a method of obtaining exaltation. It found him easily enough once the time was right.

He did recross the river and give himself up to prevent further deaths, however. I'm sure he hoped this was just another of the many, many times his enemies used the legal system to try to blunt or thwart him. He also didn't refuse protection. The protection, however, was illusory.

[Joseph Antley]

"Not fighting back" seems naive and foolish, especially when you are defending others with you. If my brother had just been shot in the face trying to protect me, and two of my dear friends were still alive with me, I would do everything I could to keep them alive -- including killing those who sought to murder us, if I were able. Such is not contrary to the law of God.

[Sentinus]

Neither Abraham Lincoln or Martin Luther King has a chance to fight back. Do you feel they wouldn't have if given a chance to fight? Or that they wouldn't have been martyrs if they had?

Since I am the only one who mentioned these two by name, I will reitterate. SOME consider them Martyrs, I do not. I consider them influential people who were assasinated for their beliefs. I don't feel that this in anyway lessens their sacrafice for Country or cause.

Regards,

Sentinus

[Sentinus]

"Not fighting back" seems naive and foolish, especially when you are defending others with you. If my brother had just been shot in the face trying to protect me, and two of my dear friends were still alive with me, I would do everything I could to keep them alive -- including killing those who sought to murder us, if I were able. Such is not contrary to the law of God.

I never said it was contrary to the law of God. However I did imply that there possibly is a better way. Joseph IMO did nothing wrong, heck I can't say that if I was placed in a similar position that I wouldn't do the same. But based on how I and many others interpret the mantle of Martyrdom he just simply misses the cut. I do not state this as a fact merely an opinion.

Regards,

Sentinus

[Sentinus]

Since we are all doing hypotheticals;

What would Jesus do (WWJD) if he came back and people came to kill him? I imagine there would be plenty of enemies around. So the Savior comes back would he just give up his life again? I meant his first time was sufficient. If Jesus was a pacifist (a theory I disagree with) he would be going against his own teachings to raise a hand in his own defense. Seriously the pacifist argument is weak. I believe Mudcat said it the best when he said;

For clarity I never said Jesus was a pacifist, most likely my use of the word was misinterpretted because I probably misused it. (My bad) A pacifist doesn't react in the temple the way Christ did. When Christ returns IMO the fighting will be over, and all will kneel and bow no need to question whether he will have to defend himself.

Also I believe Mudcat makes a valid point, I simply disagree. In other company I would be in the majority, thats why the term "Martyr" is much like "Anti Mormon" the definition is extremely relative.

It is definately good to talk to you again Anijen, I have always enjoyed our interactions even though we seem to disagree far more than we agree.

Regards,

Sentinus

[Jaybear]

Since I am the only one who mentioned these two by name, I will reitterate. SOME consider them Martyrs, I do not. I consider them influential people who were assasinated for their beliefs. I don't feel that this in anyway lessens their sacrafice for Country or cause.

Regards,

Sentinus

I don't have a problem with fighting back.

When I think of martyrs, I think of the early Christians who chose to face the lions rather than renounce their beliefs. If they fought back, before they were captured, or ran away from the lion, that doesn't change my perception that they were martyrs.

I don't consider assassinated presidents martyrs. They were never given a chance, in the face of death to renounce their position.

I also don't consider Smith a martyr.

When accused of polygamy, he vehemently denied the charges. He was arrested, not because he refused to renounce his beliefs, but because he sought to suppress the true nature of his beliefs, through the power of his position as Mayor.

I would note that if Smith had been arrested for bigamy, and had refuse to renounce his marriages, and was killed while incarcerated, I would agree that he was a martyr.

For those who consider Smith a martyr, what is your definition of martyr.

[Joseph Antley]

I never said it was contrary to the law of God. However I did imply that there possibly is a better way. Joseph IMO did nothing wrong, heck I can't say that if I was placed in a similar position that I wouldn't do the same. But based on how I and many others interpret the mantle of Martyrdom he just simply misses the cut. I do not state this as a fact merely an opinion.

Regards,

Sentinus

Dictionary.com definition: Martyr: a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause.

I don't see how he does not fit those qualifications.

[Sentinus]

Dictionary.com definition: Martyr: a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause.

I don't see how he does not fit those qualifications.

Another dictionary definition given in this thread used the caveat volunatarily. Firing back in my mind indicates an involuntary reaction to being killed for the specific cause he was associated with. Again I find no fault in his action, I simply believe it eliminates his candacy for martyrdom. Again it is merely my opinion, I do not consider it authoritive.

Regards,

Sentinus

[Joseph Antley]

Another dictionary definition given in this thread used the caveat volunatarily. Firing back in my mind indicates an involuntary reaction to being killed for the specific cause he was associated with. Again I find no fault in his action, I simply believe it eliminates his candacy for martyrdom. Again it is merely my opinion, I do not consider it authoritive.

Regards,

Sentinus

I don't see how fighting back affects it all. Why do you think a martyr cannot fight back?

[Doctor Steuss]

Two things that might be worth considering when denying Joseph to be a martyr of any sort:

1) Joseph's statement prior to going to Carthage wherein he stated that he was going as a lamb to the slaughter (indicating he knew he would [likely] meet his demise).

2) He was not alone in the cell. Although I think he was likely protecting himself (as well as the others), it is conceivable that his actions were to protect those whom he loved (which would make his jumping from the window to his death potentially an act to draw attention from the room).

I think in the strictest sense of the term, itâ??s mighty hard to say he wasnâ??t a martyr for what he believed (however wrong one may think those beliefs were). However, he can easily be cast out of the â??martyrâ? category when he is required to match those whom are held as martyrs within other faith traditions or contexts. I think itâ??s pretty evident that he was a martyr for Mormonism. After all, in many respects he was Mormonism (and many believed him to be such as is evidenced by many of the periodicals right after his death).

[wenglund]

?

1844 was the year Joseph was killed. ?

So did you mean to say "September of 1843"?

Or "September of 1844 (the year Joseph was killed")?

The latter. I have made the correction to my post. I appreciate you asking for clarification.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Jaybear]

Dictionary.com definition: Martyr: a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause.

I don't see how he does not fit those qualifications.

I prefer the first option: 1. a person who willingly suffers death rather than renounce his or her religion.

Adopting the definition you prefer, IMO, greatly diminishes the sacrifices made by the early Christian martrys.

.... great suffering on behalf of any ... cause. By that definition, Emma was a martyr.

[Vex]

I know I'm jumping in a bit late, but bare with me...

I think that my biggest issue with the word Martyr stems from the attitude in which one is killed.

I could be wrong but I can personally think of no example of a martyr that fights back, martyrdom to me seems to imply a pacifist reaction to being killed. That is my only hang up. Was he unjustly murdered certainly, but martyrs IMHO don't fire back.

Hope this clarifies alittle, I am definately open to being corrected.

Regards,

Sentinus

Would you consider Joan of Arc a Martyr?