Ezra Taft Benson

[ERayR]

To Deborah and anyone else,

Quoting Joseph Fielding Smith:

Does this sound like someone who thinks Elder Benson is doing a fine job with his political speeches? I certainly don't. Perhaps you could spin it for me?

As I've stated before, I keep,read and agree with 99% of "An Enemy Hath Done This". Some of his ideas have born the test of time. Some have not.

But I believe, he went too far in some cases. I think that DOM and the Twelve sent him to Europe to silence his political rhetoric. I think his connection to the John Birch Society was a conflict of interest. He even TRICKED DOM into being on the cover. (I'm not typing the whole story, look it up in Prince).

I love him as an Apostle. I love him as a Prophet. Did he make mistakes? Yes. And I'm happy about it because it allows me some hope as I struggle along the path of discipleship.

Big UP!

Lamanite

What I am saying is that it is too easy for someone who didn't live through those times to play Monday morning quarterback and criticizehow far someone went. The fact is that during the times we lived through ETB did what he felt he had to do. He was a man of God and a true patriot. How far does a patriot go to defend his country. He loved the USA and he came to its defense. That is more than many others did, who could have made a difference but didn't.

[Teancum]

What I am saying is that it is too easy for someone who didn't live through those times to play Monday morning quarterback and criticizehow far someone went. The fact is that during the times we lived through ETB did what he felt he had to do. He was a man of God and a true patriot. How far does a patriot go to defend his country. He loved the USA and he came to its defense. That is more than many others did, who could have made a difference but didn't.

Sort of like Senator Joe McCarthy right?

Actually ETB was extreme even for the times. He used his position to push his political agenda much to the consternation of other top leadership. DOM would attempt to reign him in but then he would back down, partly because DOM felt somethings, like the civil rights movement, were suspect, and partly because DOM was IMO, easily manipulated because he wanted to please people and be well liked.

And by the way I liked ETB quite well. Especially in his later years and as prophet. But he was radical, extreme, used his position and the general conference pulpit to push his political views and even created some skism within church ranks because of it. I lived through it. I was young but I lived through it and recall how my rather conservative father even thought ETB extreme.

[Teancum]

Contrary to how they are vilified; contrary to how the fools, the fellow-travellers, and the propogandists have spun the history- Benson, Hoover, and McCarthy were right far more than they were wrong- the KGB archives have confirmed it, and so the evidence is swept to the dark recesses of history where they cannot trouble minds of those who prefer the comforting mythology.

That their ideas do not rest well upon the ears of the comfortable, the somnolent, and the apathetic is a mark of their truth- not their falsity.

McCarthy was a power hungry loon. He was rarely if right at all. He made wild accusations with no evidence. He frequently lied to tarnish others and increase his own power. If you can point me to some real evidence that McCarthy was right I would be happy to look at it.

ETB was extreme even for conservatives. He aligned himself with a radical right wing group and that group attempted to exploit his influence. It was not a wise thing for one in the position he was in. I lived through that time. I listened to my conservative father talk about these things. He found ETB and the John Birch Society extreme. They were extreme.

[Droopy]

Wealthy states will refuse to bail out the rest of the country and start withholding taxes; they will have no choice, as their own state budgets will force the issue. It will begin in California, which will at first demand help from the federal government to prevent bankruptcy, then it will stop remitting taxes to the federal government when it does not get the help that it needs, essentially seceding from the Union. Joining California will be Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Utah, and Arizona. They will form a new country (the California Republic) that will be strongly influenced by China if not outright annexed by China. Hawaii and the Pacific islands will be seized by China or Japan. Alaska will return to Russian control. The northern midwest will form another country dominated by Canada, while the southern midwest, the Texas Republic, will be dominated by Mexico. The Atlantic seaboard may join the European Union. The interesting thing about Panarin's predictions is that he has been pretty close to being right on the money so far. However, Panarin himself says that this worst-case scenario is only about 45-55% likely.

Let us hope Professor Panarin is wrong. If he is right, it is far too late to do anything about it.

While this particular scenario sounds pretty extreme to me, the bubble is going to burst at some point. We are now in the middle of a very seious financial crisis, decades in the making, responsibility for which lies almost wholly at the feet of government. What has been the reaction thus far? Yes, precisely the measures used to create the financially disaster are now being imposed in an effort to ameliorate it. Fannie and Freddie march on unscathed. The UAW won't budge an inch on its massive above market wage rates, benefits, and pension plans (the big joke now is that GM is a retirement community with a side business making cars..at a loss), Potentially trillions of dollars of taxpayer funded bailouts of mismanaged auto makers, corrupt public corporations, mismanaged financial institutions destroyed by corrupt economic incentives are moving through the legislative process or are under serious consideration. Massive government spending programs and make-work schemes reminiscent of the New Deal (which managed to take what should have been a short and severe depression and turn it into a long and severe depression)and long discredited Keynesian monetary theory are returning, as well as the nationalization of financial institutions and major automotive corporations, and the utterly idiotic ethanol mandate. We are socializing the risks of economic life and rewarding economic irrationality.

Massive financial dislocations like this are really bad, just as are wars, because what we are moving into here is very likely a long and dredful new bout with socialism, centralization of further power in the hands of the state, unrelieved government nannyism, and the nationalization of key economic sectors. This is the kind of thing that follows each major cultural upheaval we've had in the 20th century, including WWI, WWII, and the Great Depression. Lets add to this the new proposed EPA rules grounded on the bizarre proposition that CO2 is a pollutant, cap and trade schemes, and Obama's promise to destroy the U.S. coal industry, and unless something comes along (perhaps Jihad?) to derail the new New Deal, we are looking very seriously at the loss of the republican, libertarian character of our political institutions and society.

Yes, I think this is very much what the Nephites went through, time and time and time again.

[LeSellers]

I'm sure we both accept that Communism was a real threat. But indirectly accusing President Eisenhower of being a sock puppet?

"Ike was a sock puppet" is rather harsh. But few knew him better than Elder Benson.

Of Ike's cabinet, only Elder Benson was there the entire eight years. Ike trusted him as he trusted few others, and treated him like the unofficial chaplain of the cabinet.

Ike was a powerful man all during WWII, and was used to getting things done (we military folk are like that: tell us you want it, and we will move mountains to accomplish the order). As President, he was far less effective. His administration was riddled with careerists who, M^cCarthy's bungling of the charges notwithstanding, supported Communism and actively sought Russian supremacy in the world. These Evangelical Communists filled the State Department, especially, but "worked" in other departments, too.

Ike did little or nothing to stop them, to expose them, or to rock the boat at all. Most were hold overs from the Roosevelt/Truman administrations (not hard, since that represented sixteen years of government galloping to control all aspects of the economy).

We also tend to forget that Communism was a very fashionable affiliation in the 20s and 30s. Millions of USmericans were blinded by Russian Communist promises of utopia, and workers' paradises. Such Pied Piperism led away the hearts of large numbers of USmericans, not a few of whom were LDSs. There were all sorts of lies promulgated about Communism, including that it was an effective way to restore the United Order/Law of Consecration and Stewardship (the part we sometimes forget). It was this undermining of the Kingdom of God that President Grant and his counselors, as well as most of the Quorum of the Twelve addressed all through the late 20s up to the 50s. Elder Benson's was only one of many voices singing the same hymn.

On one occasion he acknowledged that he was being somewhat strident. So he gave a talk that was 99% quotes from President M^cKay. There was no significant difference in the message or tone.

Elder Benson may have sounded shrill (although not nearly as shrill as many today whose leanings are the opposite of his), but he came by it honestly, and we are (or should feel) indebted to him for his warning voice.

Lehi

[Droopy]

McCarthy was a power hungry loon. He was rarely if right at all. He made wild accusations with no evidence. He frequently lied to tarnish others and increase his own power. If you can point me to some real evidence that McCarthy was right I would be happy to look at it.

Here's some books to work on, as you quite clearly have a great deal of homework to do. Red Star Over Hollywood, by Ronald Radosh, Commies: A Journey Through the Old Left, the New Left and the Leftover Left, by Ronald Radosh, The Venona Secrets, Exposing Soviet Espionage and America's Traitors, by Herbert Romerstein, Blacklisted by History: The Untold Story of Senator Joe McCarthy and His Fight Against America's Enemies, by M. Stanton Evans, Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning, by Jonah Goldberg, and you should probably include The Secret World of American Communism and The Secret World of Soviet Communism, by by Harvey Klehr and John Earl Haynes.

McCarthy was many things, a number of them negative, but one thing he wasn't, we now know from recent scholarship, was, except in a few cases, wrong. The Hollywood Ten, as with most of those he accused, were guilty pretty much as he believed them to be. This historical reality doesn't redeem McCarthy's personal misdeeds and character defects, but it does clear up the mythology regarding him promulgated by the mainstream media, Hollywood, and our education system for several generations.

ETB was extreme even for conservatives. He aligned himself with a radical right wing group and that group attempted to exploit his influence. It was not a wise thing for one in the position he was in. I lived through that time. I listened to my conservative father talk about these things. He found ETB and the John Birch Society extreme.

This is just left wing extremism (see how easy it is?). ETB was right, not extreme. He may have been wrong in some of his detailed claims, but the general thrust of his beliefs about communism and its influence in the U.S. was accurate.

[ERayR]

While this particular scenario sounds pretty extreme to me, the bubble is going to burst at some point. We are now in the middle of a very seious financial crisis, decades in the making, responsibility for which lies almost wholly at the feet of government. What has been the reaction thus far? Yes, precisely the measures used to create the financially disaster are now being imposed in an effort to ameliorate it. Fannie and Freddie march on unscathed. The UAW won't budge an inch on its massive above market wage rates, benefits, and pension plans (the big joke now is that GM is a retirement community with a side business making cars..at a loss), Potentially trillions of dollars of taxpayer funded bailouts of mismanaged auto makers, corrupt public corporations, mismanaged financial institutions destroyed by corrupt economic incentives are moving through the legislative process or are under serious consideration. Massive government spending programs and make work schemes reminiscent of the New Deal (which managed to take what should have been a short and severe depression and turn it into a long and severe depression)and long discredited Keynesian monetary theory are returning, as well as the nationalization of financial institutions and major automotive corporations, and the utterly idiotic ethanol mandate continues. We socializing the risks of eon comic life and rewarding economic irrationality.

Massive financial dislocations like this are really bad, just as are wars, because what we are moving into here is very likely a long and dredful new bout with socialism, centralization of further power in the hands of the state, unrelieved government nannyism, and the nationalization of key economic sectors. Lets add to this the new proposed EPA rules grounded on the bizarre proposition that CO2 is a pollutant, cap and trade schemes, and Obama's promise to destroy the U.S. coal industry, and unless something comes along (perhaps Jihad?) to derail the new New Deal, we are looking very seriously at the loss of the republican, libertarian character of our political institutions and society.

Yes, I think this is very much what the Nephites went through, time and time and time again.

We are extremists but I am with you on this one. You didn't add in that the police are stretched so thin that we are on the verge of anarchy in the inner cities which may be triggered by the above mentioned economic meltdown. Just before some of you get epolectic I did not say that it will happen for sure but we are certainly set up for it.

[ERayR]

"Ike was a sock puppet" is rather harsh. But few knew him better than Elder Benson.

Of Ike's cabinet, only Elder Benson was there the entire eight years. Ike trusted him as he trusted few others, and treated him like the unofficial chaplain of the cabinet.

Ike was a powerful man all during WWII, and was used to getting things done (we military folk are like that: tell us you want it, and we will move mountains to accomplish the order). As President, he was far less effective. His administration was riddled with careerists who, M^cCarthy's bungling of the charges notwithstanding, supported Communism and actively sought Russian supremacy in the world. These Evangelical Communists filled the State Department, especially, but "worked" in other departments, too.

Ike did little or nothing to stop them, to expose them, or to rock the boat at all. Most were hold overs from the Roosevelt/Truman administrations (not hard, since that represented sixteen years of government galloping to control all aspects of the economy).

We also tend to forget that Communism was a very fashionable affiliation in the 20s and 30s. Millions of USmericans were blinded by Russian Communist promises of utopia, and workers' paradises. Such Pied Piperism led away the hearts of large numbers of USmericans, not a few of whom were LDSs. There were all sorts of lies promulgated about Communism, including that it was an effective way to restore the United Order/Law of Consecration and Stewardship (the part we sometimes forget). It was this undermining of the Kingdom of God that President Grant and his counselors, as well as most of the Quorum of the Twelve addresses all through the late 20s up to the 50s. Elder Benson's was only one of many voices singing the same hymn.

On one occasion he acknowledged that he was being somewhat strident. So he gave a talk that was 99% quotes from President M^cKay. There was no significant difference in the message or tone.

Elder Benson may have sounded shrill (although not nearly as shrill as many today whose leanings are the opposite of his), but he came by it honestly, and we are (or should feel) indebted to him for his warning voice.

Lehi

You have said well my brother.

[LeSellers]

McCarthy was a power hungry loon. He was rarely if right at all. He made wild accusations with no evidence. He frequently lied to tarnish others and increase his own power. If you can point me to some real evidence that McCarthy was right I would be happy to look at it.

You are right on the character issues. However, his charges on Communists in the State Department (and elsewhere in the government) were, if anything, understated.

For substantiation, read Venona (Yale University Press); The Secret World Of American Communism (Yale University Press); The Haunted Wood (Random House); The Venona Secrets (Regnery); The Secret History of the KGB (Basic Books); Whittaker Chambers: A Biography (Modern Library); and Joseph McCarthy: Reexamining the Life and Legacy of America's Most Hated Senator (Free Press).

Lehi

[Droopy]

We also tend to forget that Communism was a very fashionable affiliation in the 20s and 30s.

As were its siblings fascism and National Socialism. Long forgotten is the fact that the Progressives were leftists, and were enamored of centralized government, nationalization of industry, and the socialization of economic life well before the general fear of Soviet communism became an issue.

FDR remarked at one point that aspects of the New Deal then in process of implementation were derived from aspects of policies and ideas coming then out of the Soviet Union, Italy, and Germany. Collectivism was, indeed, all the rage in the Progressive era (especially the thirties, although Wilson brought the country closer to a police state than any President before or since).

[Droopy]

I forgot about The Haunted Wood. That's one I should have mentioned to Teancum, and one I've wanted to read for sometime.

[ERayR]

You are right on the character issues. However, his charges on Communists in the State Department (and elsewhere in the government) were, if anything, understated.

For substantiation, read Venona (Yale University Press); The Secret World Of American Communism (Yale University Press); The Haunted Wood (Random House); The Venona Secrets (Regnery); The Secret History of the KGB (Basic Books); Whittaker Chambers: A Biography (Modern Library); and Joseph McCarthy: Reexamining the life and legacy of America's most hated Senator (Free Press).

Lehi

What worries me is that those (even in the church)who did not live through it and even some who did have either forgotten or are ignoring the lessons. It seems that we have almost reache the state that Mormon and Moroni describe. I pray not but the signs are not encouraging.

[Teancum]

Here's some books to work on, as you quite clearly have a great deal of homework to do. Red Star Over Hollywood, by Ronald Radosh, Commies: A Journey Through the Old Left, the New Left and the Leftover Left, by Ronald Radosh, The Venona Secrets, Exposing Soviet Espionage and America's Traitors, by Herbert Romerstein, Blacklisted by History: The Untold Story of Senator Joe McCarthy and His Fight Against America's Enemies, by M. Stanton Evans, Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning, by Jonah Goldberg, and you should probably include The Secret World of American Communism and The Secret World of Soviet Communism, by by Harvey Klehr and John Earl Haynes.

That is a pretty long list. Which are the top two that you would recommend?

[Droopy]

That is a pretty long list. Which are the top two that you would recommend?

Wow, well, many of the same points are covered, to a greater or lesser degree, in all of them, but not all are covered, of course. The top two, in the context of this discussion, would probably be Evens book and the Venona piece. Take your time and move through them all, there's no rush. The Secret World of American Communism is a must, however, as is Red Star over Hollywood, after which one much better understands modern Hollywood's hatred of Huac and McCarthy and the halo of heroism still cast around the Hollywood Ten.

During my youth, I absorbed the very same sanitized pop media mythology regarding the Cold War, indigenous American communism, and America's role in the international system as everyone else, but I never fully trusted it. When I became an adult, and realized that there was an entire literary, academic, and intellectual world outside of the CBS Evening News and Time (by my mid-twenties, I had never so much as heard of Hayek, Von Mises, Hazlitt, Russel Kirk, or Human Events) a whole new and dynamic intellectual world opened up for me, and I was able to begin to place the disagreements between the Right and the Left in context.

I also came to see that I had grown up with an almost utterly monochomatic view of the world, history, political history, and even most current events due to information gatekeeper function of the major media and the public school system. This is why I had never heard the names of Hayek, or Von Mises, or Friedman (and knew literally nothing of Lenin or even Stalin), well into my college years, but knew a great deal about the Nazis and that FDR had done more for the salvation of the human family then any other, save Jesus only.

Now that, I call "liberation".

[Deborah]

I have a problem to begin with in digging up old talks by GA's or prophets who are dead and finding fault with what they said and then trying to rationalize when he was speaking as a prophet and when he wasn't. In the first place whatever was said at the time was for that day. That is why we have living prophets. In the second place the person isn't here to defend himself.

I suspect that many of the GA's actually agreed with ETB and certainly most members of Congress were concerned about Communism at the time, though there is no question McCarthy went too far in some of his tactics. However, the place of a GA was not to focus on politics but on teaching the gospel and bearing testimony and as far as I'm concerned that is the only reason he was asked not to continue. Had he not been a GA I doubt anyone would have cared what he said publically, but as a GA he represented the church and that is a different venue.

[Lightbearer]

I have a problem to begin with in digging up old talks by GA's or prophets who are dead and finding fault with what they said and then trying to rationalize when he was speaking as a prophet and when he wasn't. In the first place whatever was said at the time was for that day. That is why we have living prophets. In the second place the person isn't here to defend himself.

This is the way of the Anti-Mormons and the political pundits who want to rewrite history. What better way of rejecting modern prophets and apostles than to dredge up old statements after they are dead and create "straw men" to attack and prove the virtue of their own viewpoint. That is why the Journal of Discourses is such a popular resource for Anti-Mormon quote miners. It is far easier to attack dead prophets than living ones. Ezra Taft Benson was a patriot and a prophet,seer, and revelator and his political views only bothers leftists and communist sympathizers. I stand with him in my critisim of political philosophies that would undermine the freedom of the entire world. As for McCarthy I believe he was a part of a communist conspiracy to discredit those who spoke out against communism. Just as many today are marginalized by the use of the McCarthy "strawman" to inspire people to fear being classified along with McCarthy as some sort of nut that see commies under every bed, so people love to bash President Benson. Well the point is communism was and still is threat to freedom. Unless people realize this they are doomed to repeat the mistakes of history.

[ERayR]

I have a problem to begin with in digging up old talks by GA's or prophets who are dead and finding fault with what they said and then trying to rationalize when he was speaking as a prophet and when he wasn't. In the first place whatever was said at the time was for that day. That is why we have living prophets. In the second place the person isn't here to defend himself.

I suspect that many of the GA's actually agreed with ETB and certainly most members of Congress were concerned about Communism at the time, though there is no question McCarthy went too far in some of his tactics. However, the place of a GA was not to focus on politics but on teaching the gospel and bearing testimony and as far as I'm concerned that is the only reason he was asked not to continue. Had he not been a GA I doubt anyone would have cared what he said publically, but as a GA he represented the church and that is a different venue.

ETB must have had some reason for what he did. I can't help but think that he must have felt some affinity to Jeremiah who had to tell Isreal to stay away from an alliance with Egypt and was thrown in jail for his political views.

[Droopy]

As for McCarthy I believe he was a part of a communist conspiracy to discredit those who spoke out against communism.

You can't be serious?

Buckley has said that McCarthy gave anti-communism a bad name, and was a pox on the later conservative movement, but it was his personal psychological and emotional characteristics that created this state of affairs, not any political intrigue.

I really don't think inserting yet another vapid conspiracy theory, immune from refutation and having no evidence to support it, is necessary to explain McCarthy and his influence.

[usedbookdealer]

You can't be serious?

Buckley has said that McCarthy gave anti-communism a bad name, and was a pox on the later conservative movement, but it was his personal psychological and emotional characteristics that created this state of affairs, not any political intrigue.

I really don't think inserting yet another vapid conspiracy theory, immune from refutation and having no evidence to support it, is necessary to explain McCarthy and his influence.

---------------------------------------------------

I recall that the Birchers constantly conplained that Buckley was public enemy number 1, a wolf in sheeps clothes(and , of course, the godfather of the neo-cons, ex-CIA, etc.)

[Droopy]

---------------------------------------------------

I recall that the Birchers constantly conplained that Buckley was public enemy number 1, a wolf in sheeps clothes(and , of course, the godfather of the neo-cons, ex-CIA, etc.)

It was the Bircher leadership that became corrupt and extreme, which is why Buckely and others left it. That they held ill will toward him is no mystery. But this doesn't speak to the point I made, which is that an irrefutable and unfalsifiable conspiracy theory is unnecessary to explain McCarthy's behavior.

I don't think one can have it both ways. McCarthy was effective in exposing and bringing communists to justice, while at the same time discrediting the exercise through his eccentric behavior. The communists essentially hired him to expose and destroy other communists?

The Comintern was far, far smarter than that dealer.