Did Abraham Know The Name Of Jehovah?

[Kiviuq]

â??And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.â? Ex 6:2-3

The Lord appeared to Abraham and said:

â??My name is Jehovah, and I know the end from the beginning; therefore my hand shall be over thee.â? (See Abr 2:6-

These verses seem to contradict. Any thoughts?

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

This is one instance of a mistranslation of the Bible, as Abraham does name an altar Jehovah-Jireh after his near sacrifice of his son Issac. Abraham would have known Jehovah as well as the other prophets before Moses. Adam knew him too.

[Zakuska]

Thats why they fixed it in the NIV...

Exodus 6:3

3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, [a] but by my name the LORD I did not make myself known to them. [c]

See footnote Ex 3:15

Exodus 3:15 (New International Version)

15 God also said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites, 'The LORD, [a] the God of your fathersâ??the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacobâ??has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation.

Hmmm.... JEHOVAH was Abraham Isaacs and Jacobs God.

Gen. 22: 14

14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.

[Sargon]

My guess is that this is best understood as a product of the fact that the Pentateuch was authored by various authors carrying out various theological agendas (called the Documentary Hypothesis) rather than a simple contradiction between the PoGP and the OT.

This particular passage in Exodus is understood by scholars to have been authored by the Priestly source, or P.

Sargon

[Tanyan]

I understood that the "J" letter did not come about until the 16th century [1520] which was popularized by the Dutch.

Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Honorentheos]

I understood that the "J" letter did not come about until the 16th century [1520] which was popularized by the Dutch.

Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

And I understood that the "J" source was the oldest and probaly dated to Solomon's court.

There is a book, called "Abraham; The First Historical Biography" that looks at the story of Abraham strictly from the "J" source. The author postulates that Yahweh was his personal/family god which were common in Sumaria and brought with him in his movement to Canaan. Generally hypothetical in his speculation, but fun to read.

[zerinus]

â??And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.â? Ex 6:2-3

The Lord appeared to Abraham and said:

â??My name is Jehovah, and I know the end from the beginning; therefore my hand shall be over thee.â? (See Abr 2:6-

These verses seem to contradict. Any thoughts?

JST version renders the verse differently. The changes are typed in red and italics:

KJV-Exodus 6:3 â??And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.â?

JST-Exodus 6:3 â??And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob;

I am the Lord

God Almighty;

the Lord

JEHOVAH.

And was not my name known unto

them?â?

zerinus

[jadams_4242]

â??And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.â? Ex 6:2-3

The Lord appeared to Abraham and said:

â??My name is Jehovah, and I know the end from the beginning; therefore my hand shall be over thee.â? (See Abr 2:6-

These verses seem to contradict. Any thoughts?

Yea; bill;Ted;Bob;Tom;Jehovah, whats the differance?

[The_Monk]

Though it's not definitive, note that there are NO Yahwistic theophoric names until Moses mother, Yochebed. That's a subtle but strong evidence that seems to lend creedence to source theory.

[MormonMason]

â??And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.â? Ex 6:2-3

The Lord appeared to Abraham and said:

â??My name is Jehovah, and I know the end from the beginning; therefore my hand shall be over thee.â? (See Abr 2:6-

These verses seem to contradict. Any thoughts?

Get out your Hebrew Bible and read. You will find the contradiction gone in an instant.

[MormonMason]

Though it's not definitive, note that there are NO Yahwistic theophoric names until Moses mother, Yochebed. That's a subtle but strong evidence that seems to lend creedence to source theory.

If I recall correctly, there are Yahwistic names at Ugarit. I seem to remember a few in another ancient source but do not recall the source at the moment. Senior moment...

[JimmieD]

This is one instance of a mistranslation of the Bible, as Abraham does name an altar Jehovah-Jireh after his near sacrifice of his son Issac. Abraham would have known Jehovah as well as the other prophets before Moses. Adam knew him too.

The DSS have an interesting variation on the place named "Jehovah-Jireh", they read "Elohim-Jireh" instead. And if I were at home I would tell you exactly which manuscript it was, but I'm not at home.

Useless trivia for the day.

[MormonMason]

The DSS have an interesting variation on the place named "Jehovah-Jireh", they read "Elohim-Jireh" instead. And if I were at home I would tell you exactly which manuscript it was, but I'm not at home.

Useless trivia for the day.

It would be 4QGen-Exod^a, otherwise known as 4Q1. It is also one manuscript that contains that reading so the plural "they" technically would not apply.

I am looking closely at a photo of the manuscript right now to see whether the claim for the manuscript is correct or the claim was based on a preliminary photograph and, therefore, not correct. Mine is infrared enhanced.

Stay tuned...

[JimmieD]

It would be 4QGen-Exod^a, otherwise known as 4Q1. It is also one manuscript that contains that reading so the plural "they" technically would not apply.

Thanks.

I am looking closely at a photo of the manuscript right now to see whether the claim for the manuscript is correct or the claim was based on a preliminary photograph and, therefore, not correct. Mine is infrared enhanced.

Stay tuned...

Should be interesting. Where did you get photographs of the manuscripts from?

[maklelan]

If I recall correctly, there are Yahwistic names at Ugarit. I seem to remember a few in another ancient source but do not recall the source at the moment. Senior moment...

KTU 1.1.4.14 reads sm.bny.yw, "The name of my son is yaw." Many scholars insist this is Yahweh, but I think it's closer to Yam, the main character of the story. Yahwistic names had yhw early in Israelite history and shifted to yh later. Here's a chart showing the breakdown of final -yhw and -yh theophoric names in the Bible. Yw was also used in theophoric names, and it could be related to Yahweh here, but I don't think we have enough info to say for sure. On the other hand, this would put the use of his name around the same time period as Moses' mother. There is also a 15th century BCE Egyptian reference to "yhw in the land of the nomads," which is about right. Fun stuff.

EDIT: I'm a moron.

[The_Monk]

Yam, the main character of the story. Yam ("sea" in most Semitic languages) comes from the hollow root ywm, which is why "sea" has a long "o" in Hebrew (Canaanite shift and all).

You're mixing your Hebrew.

Day=yo:m< <yawmu The aw diphthong> o: (often, but not always) but that's not Canaanite shift.

sea=ya:m<yamm <yammu This is also why the plural is yammi:m instead of *ya:mi:m.

BH doesn't tolerate a final consonant cluster (with few exceptions, like the final -tt in the 2fs personal pronoun att<atti:<anti: ), and geminates in particular drop out, causing vowel changes. The gemination "reappears" when final suffixes are added.

ko:l<kul<kull<kullu

hence ko:l "all" but kulla:m "all of them"

On the larger question, there are certainly Yh/yw deities outside of and predating the Bible. The question is whether the Biblical writers knew of them and whether the name was retrojected into the record. I think the lack of Yahwistic names prior to Moses is a useful datapoint.

[maklelan]

Should be interesting. Where did you get photographs of the manuscripts from?

They're actually putting infrared imaging of all the scrolls on the internet, but there are a number of CD-ROMs and other kinds of ways to access the photography. I have Brill's Dead Sea Scrolls Electronic Library. Since BYU produced it, a bunch of us got it for free.

[maklelan]

You're mixing your Hebrew.

Oh, wow. I wasn't even paying attention. That's what happens when I try to post before I'm fully awake.

[katherine the great]

KTU 1.1.4.14 reads sm.bny.yw, "The name of my son is yaw." Many scholars insist this is Yahweh, but I think it's closer to Yam, the main character of the story. Yahwistic names had yhw early in Israelite history and shifted to yh later. Here's a chart showing the breakdown of final -yhw and -yh theophoric names in the Bible. Yw was also used in theophoric names, and it could be related to Yahweh here, but I don't think we have enough info to say for sure. On the other hand, this would put the use of his name around the same time period as Moses' mother. There is also a 15th century BCE Egyptian reference to "yhw in the land of the nomads," which is about right. Fun stuff.

EDIT: I'm a moron.

Do you connect the probable worship of Yahweh (Yahu) among the Shasu in Midian with a tradition handed down from Esau?

[JimmieD]

They're actually putting infrared imaging of all the scrolls on the internet, but there are a number of CD-ROMs and other kinds of ways to access the photography. I have Brill's Dead Sea Scrolls Electronic Library. Since BYU produced it, a bunch of us got it for free.

Now if Santa Claus will only be good to me.

[katherine the great]

On the larger question, there are certainly Yh/yw deities outside of and predating the Bible. The question is whether the Biblical writers knew of them and whether the name was retrojected into the record. I think the lack of Yahwistic names prior to Moses is a useful datapoint.

Predating the Bible in what sense? I would be profoundly surprised if it were a coincidence that two traditions of a God named Yahweh rose up independently within such a small geographical area and time frame.

[jkfrost]

JST version renders the verse differently. The changes are typed in red and italics:

KJV-Exodus 6:3 â??And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.â?

JST-Exodus 6:3 â??And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob;

I am the Lord

God Almighty;

the Lord

JEHOVAH.

And was not my name known unto

them?â?

zerinus

This was what first thing that came to mind. Thanks!

Most of those JST changes clear things up in the Bible just like this!

[The_Monk]

Predating the Bible in what sense? I would be profoundly surprised if it were a coincidence that two traditions of a God named Yahweh rose up independently within such a small geographical area and time frame.

More specifically, predating the traditional Biblical authors. Even if we take Moses as responsible for the Pentateuch as tradition has it, the Ugaritic texts pre-date him.(Well, depending on which view of the Exodus one takes.)

It's not so unusual. Yahweh is etymologically connected to the verb of existence common to Canaanite languages and means something like "he who causes (things) to exist". That's a pretty basic concept to be expressed, and it would make sense for other creator-deities.

I haven't looked much at these others, so grain of salt.

[katherine the great]

More specifically, predating the traditional Biblical authors. Even if we take Moses as responsible for the Pentateuch as tradition has it, the Ugaritic texts pre-date him.(Well, depending on which view of the Exodus one takes.)

It's not so unusual. Yahweh is etymologically connected to the verb of existence common to Canaanite languages and means something like "he who causes (things) to exist". That's a pretty basic concept to be expressed, and it would make sense for other creator-deities.

I haven't looked much at these others, so grain of salt.

I'm probably not as well read on this topic as you are. The oldest reference to Yahweh (outside of the Bible) that I'm aware of came from an Egyptian stele (I think) in Sudan circa 1500 bc that referred to YHW of the Shasu (of Midian.) Since that was firmly in Edomite territory at the time, I've wondered if that Yahweh tradition had been handed down from Esau or even Ishmael.

[zerinus]

I'm probably not as well read on this topic as you are. The oldest reference to Yahweh (outside of the Bible) that I'm aware of came from an Egyptian stele (I think) in Sudan circa 1500 bc that referred to YHW of the Shasu (of Midian.) Since that was firmly in Edomite territory at the time, I've wondered if that Yahweh tradition had been handed down from Esau or even Ishmael.

I thought somebody had already mentioned that, but nobody seems to have taken much notice of it. There is plenty of evidence in the OT itself that Abraham knew of Jehovah (emphasis added):

Genesis 22

:

11 And the angel of the Lord [

Jehovah

] called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

14 And Abraham called the name of that place

Jehovah-jireh:

as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord [

Jehovah

] it shall be seen.

15 And the angel of the Lord [

Jehovah

] called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,

16 And said,

By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord [Jehovah],

for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

In all the above, "Lord" is a translation of the Hebrew "Jehovah".

zerinus