Did Abraham Know The Name Of Jehovah?

[Ron Beron]

They're actually putting infrared imaging of all the scrolls on the internet, but there are a number of CD-ROMs and other kinds of ways to access the photography. I have Brill's Dead Sea Scrolls Electronic Library. Since BYU produced it, a bunch of us got it for free.

Grrrrrrr..... It is 600 freakin' dollars!!! and you got it for free!?!?! There is no justice.

[Ron Beron]

I'm probably not as well read on this topic as you are. The oldest reference to Yahweh (outside of the Bible) that I'm aware of came from an Egyptian stele (I think) in Sudan circa 1500 bc that referred to YHW of the Shasu (of Midian.) Since that was firmly in Edomite territory at the time, I've wondered if that Yahweh tradition had been handed down from Esau or even Ishmael.

We cannot neglect the Sumerian god Ea which has been connected with Ya of the Midianites.

[katherine the great]

We cannot neglect the Sumerian god Ea which has been connected with Ya of the Midianites.

Did the names just kind of grow with time?

[Phinehas]

This is one instance of a mistranslation of the Bible, as Abraham does name an altar Jehovah-Jireh after his near sacrifice of his son Issac. Abraham would have known Jehovah as well as the other prophets before Moses. Adam knew him too.

CFR on mis- translation

Abraham used the term Jehovah-Jireh when his son said, "Dad where is the sacrifice?" Abraham said, "Jehovah-Jireh, the Lord will provide"(Genesis 22:. But yet the Lord is saying, "By My namen (nature) Jehovah was I not known." In other words, they knew Him in a less personal way than Moses was to know God. They knew Him as the Almighty God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth.

[Zemah]

â??And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.â? Ex 6:2-3

The Lord appeared to Abraham and said:

â??My name is Jehovah, and I know the end from the beginning; therefore my hand shall be over thee.â? (See Abr 2:6-

These verses seem to contradict. Any thoughts?

My Jerusalem Bible says, "God spoke to Moses and said to him, â??I am Yahweh. To Abraham and Isaac and Jacob I appeared as El Shaddai; I did not make myself known to them by my name Yahwehâ??.â? (Exodus 6:2-3)

The footnotes read, â??According to tradition the divine name was revealed in three stages: Elohim, El Shaddai, and Yahweh.â?

Elohim describes the plural nature of God; or more specifically the divine priesthood or Godly Fatherhood. This attribute correlates to the concept of our Father in heaven.

El Shaddai is described as the God who provides; or more specifically the God of covenants and fulfillment of promise. This attribute correlates to the concept of the Holy Spirit of Promise or the Holy Ghost who is the witness unto hope and the Revelator of the Truth.

Yahweh is the LORD; or more specifically the LORD of Hosts. This attribute correlates to the concept of the Son of God who is given dominion over all the living.

Exodus chapter 6 goes on to clarify to the enslaved Israelites that the One (Yahweh) who now speaks to Moses is the same One that authorized the promise to be made through El Shaddai to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

I think the passage from latter-day scriptures only affirms what Abraham knew, that the promise of El Shaddai must have come with the sanction of the LORD.

Exodus chapter 6 only describes what the LORD had to say to an Israel that did not know what Abraham knew. They only knew of the promise made by El Shaddai that applied to them the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Now a prophet, Moses, stands before them claiming to have been visited by Yahweh who wishes them to follow him into the desert to repossess the land promised by a different entity of God.

Yahweh is only making the connection between Him and the promise clear.

I donâ??t believe the verses contradict; they must be understood in the context of the times they were spoken and the purpose for which they were spoken.

Zemah

[MormonMason]

Grrrrrrr..... It is 600 freakin' dollars!!! and you got it for free!?!?! There is no justice.

That price is for the Network Version. The Standalone version is cheaper.

But, and this is a big but, this collection does not contain the biblical scrolls. Most of the images containing the biblical scrolls also have been omitted from the collection. Neither does the Network Version contain them.

[MormonMason]

...

Should be interesting. Where did you get photographs of the manuscripts from?

From various sources: Israel Department of Antiquities, E.J. Brill and Oxford University, Biblical Archaeology Society, FARMS, etc...

I have them in several formats, including microfiche and including the biblical scrolls.

[MormonMason]

Bummer...I still cannot post images to the board and I really need to be able to post images to be able to explain what I found.

Mods,

Did I do something wrong and now have a restriction placed on my ability to post images? I do not recall doing anything that would result in a restriction of that nature.

The error I now get constantly is: "Upload failed. Please ask the administrator to check the settings and permissions." The images I am trying to post are not that large so I am not sure what is happening at the moment.

I'll try to explain as best I can, anyway, in the meantime.

I looked through the photos until I found the right fragment, which is identified as fragment 1 of 4QGen-Exod^a. In point of fact, 4QGen-Exod^a is a collection of fragments from a manuscript rather than a whole manuscript. And, these fragments are scattered amongst a number of photos in the published collections.

The particular fragment I am looking at, containing Genesis 22:14, contains two whole words and two fragmentary words, neither at the ends containing complete words. The word identified by Davila as Elohim does not even contain a single complete letter, and so has to be reconstructed. Such a reconstruction, however, tells us nothing as to the previous words that might have been on the manuscript at that place. The other unfortunate reality is that the reading is the subject of debate amongst scholars.

Personally, I can see how the word can be reconstructed as Elohim--I can see a fragment of lamed (transliterated 'L') but nothing before, a remnant of yod (transliterated 'Y' or '

[zerinus]

Bummer...I still cannot post images to the board and I really need to be able to post images to be able to explain what I found.

Mods,

Did I do something wrong and now have a restriction placed on my ability to post images? I do not recall doing anything that would result in a restriction of that nature.

The error I now get constantly is: "Upload failed. Please ask the administrator to check the settings and permissions." The images I am trying to post are not that large so I am not sure what is happening at the moment.

I'll try to explain as best I can, anyway, in the meantime.

I looked through the photos until I found the right fragment, which is identified as fragment 1 of 4QGen-Exod^a. In point of fact, 4QGen-Exod^a is a collection of fragments from a manuscript rather than a whole manuscript. And, these fragments are scattered amongst a number of photos in the published collections.

The particular fragment I am looking at, containing Genesis 22:14, contains two whole words and two fragmentary words, neither at the ends containing complete words. The word identified by Davila as Elohim does not even contain a single complete letter, and so has to be reconstructed. Such a reconstruction, however, tells us nothing as to the previous words that might have been on the manuscript at that place. The other unfortunate reality is that the reading is the subject of debate amongst scholars.

Personally, I can see how the word can be reconstructed as Elohim--I can see a fragment of lamed (transliterated 'L') but nothing before, a remnant of yod (transliterated 'Y' or '

[MormonMason]

To post imges you don't need to "upload" them. You make a link to them in your posts. If the image already exists on another site on the Internet, you obtain the URL of the image by right-clicking on it, and selecting "Copy Shortcut". Then you embed it in your post by clicking on the "Insert Image" icon, and pasting the URL in the dialog box that opens. If the images do not exist on another website on the Internet, but they are your own images, you have to load it up somewhere on the Internet, such as "SkyDrive" or "PhotoBucket," and then obtain the URL of it similar to what is shown above, and past it into your posts.

zerinus

I know I can do it that way, but the images I wished to post are not publically available and I do not like to use these online services for reasons of security and so forth.

[zerinus]

I know I can do it that way, but the images I wished to post are not publically available and I do not like to use these online services for reasons of security and so forth.

There is no security (or lack of it) involved in that. Whatever images you put in your posts will be publicly visible on the Internet anyway, so I don't know what you are worried about with that one.

zerinus

[maklelan]

That price is for the Network Version. The Standalone version is cheaper.

But, and this is a big but, this collection does not contain the biblical scrolls. Most of the images containing the biblical scrolls also have been omitted from the collection. Neither does the Network Version contain them.

That's changing with the next edition, which, if everything goes as planned, I'll be helping to beta-test.

[MormonMason]

There is no security (or lack of it) involved in that. Whatever images you put in your posts will be publicly visible on the Internet anyway, so I don't know what you are worried about with that one.zerinus

Oh, but there is. Sorry that you are not aware of the issues involved.

That's changing with the next edition, which, if everything goes as planned, I'll be helping to beta-test.

That would be very cool for more reasons than one. When is the expected release date?

[Ron Beron]

That price is for the Network Version. The Standalone version is cheaper.

But, and this is a big but, this collection does not contain the biblical scrolls. Most of the images containing the biblical scrolls also have been omitted from the collection. Neither does the Network Version contain them.

Thanks, MM...only $300. I feel much better now. I'll get two.

[MormonMason]

Thanks, MM...only $300. I feel much better now. I'll get two.

Well, there may be a workaround. I know someone who got some expensive software for free by developing an application fix in exchange when one of Brill's software products ceased to work under Windows XP. Maybe you could do something similar?

[maklelan]

When is the expected release date?

It'll be middle of next year. They're also trying to make it so you can click a button and have the entire text of the Hebrew Bible expand into fully parsed and color-coded words.

[MormonMason]

I think I solved the problem, with the help of the mods. I have too many image attachments, it appears. I deleted one and was able to post this one. So here it is, the fragment of 4Q1 or 4QGen-Exod^a that contains but a portion of Genesis 22:14, followed by the text of the Hebrew Bible for that verse, with the matching portion marked with red:

As I said, I will have to do further checking in the photos and elsewhere to see if there is another piece that goes with this one.

[maklelan]

The particular fragment I am looking at, containing Genesis 22:14, contains two whole words and two fragmentary words, neither at the ends containing complete words. The word identified by Davila as Elohim does not even contain a single complete letter, and so has to be reconstructed. Such a reconstruction, however, tells us nothing as to the previous words that might have been on the manuscript at that place. The other unfortunate reality is that the reading is the subject of debate amongst scholars.

Personally, I can see how the word can be reconstructed as Elohim--I can see a fragment of lamed (transliterated 'L') but nothing before, a remnant of yod (transliterated 'Y' or '

[MormonMason]

The last letter appears to be a final mem. The ligature precludes a resh. That could definitely be a yod before that, and it seems clear that's a lamed peaking over the top. There's room for it to be elohim whether it's spelled male or plene, although plene would be more comfortable. While the male spelling is more common, cave 4 has a number of manuscripts with the plene spelling of elohim. It wouldn't be the first time such a tiqqune sopherim took place.

You don't happen to have any more fragments from that chapter, do you?

I agree with you about the forms of the letters and so forth. Here is the same photo with labeling added:

I have yet to see other closely related fragments from the remnants of this scroll. As I said, the fragments are scattered amongst a number of photos in the collections. I will continue to look as time allows. I do recall seeing other fragments of the surrounding verses amongst the fragments of another, separate scroll while looking for what it was that I was looking for, however.

I'll go back and take a look at those as soon as I can and get back to you on that.

[MormonMason]

I checked the other fragments from the same scroll and came up empty for the moment. Here is the only other fragment of which I am aware that contains even a snippet of text from Genesis 22:13-15. It is 1Q1 or 1QGenesis, fragment 3.

Interestingly enough, one can see a variant reading or so in this fragment. Particularly of interest is the occurrence of the particle 'ĕth preceding šēm hămmāq

[David Waltz]

Hi Katherine,

Seems that your questions and comments are getting little response(s). Given my JW up-bringing, I have retained a keen interest in the Tetragrammaton, and have spent a considerable amount of time researching various aspects of the Name.

Just last week I discovered that one of my favorite books on ancient Israel is now available online for â??limited previewâ? via GoogleBooks:

http://books.google.com/books?id=JBhY9BQ7h...+Miller#PPR7,M1

The entire first chapter which deals with Yahweh, is all there (at least I have not seen any pages missing yet).

Another excellent resource available online via GoogleBooks is Parke-Taylorâ??s, Yahweh: The Divine Name In the Bible:

http://books.google.com/books?id=VgHPVgod3...e+Parke#PPP1,M1

(Have not as yet checked how much of the book is available, but if important pages are missing, I own this book as well.)

Yet another good resource is Mettingerâ??s, In Search of God:

http://books.google.com/books?id=lZL2A-JLM...f+God+Mettinger

And there is Frank Moore Crossâ??, Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic:

http://books.google.com/books?id=-eOycxXAo...and+Hebrew+Epic

(Once again, I own all these books, and as time permits, would be willing to supply missing data.)

IMHO, though certainly just the tip-of-the-iceberg, the above works are an excellent startâ?¦

Grace and peace,

David