Age Of Accountability

[sob76]

I am a Christian who believes in Padobaptism (infant baptism). I'm also an ex-mormon of 19 years. I have 3 wonderful children 9, 20 months and 5 months. What I am wondering is how anyone who has raised children can believe that kids aren't just as sinful as the rest of us? When my 20 month old is doing something wrong he is looking around to see if anyone is looking. He knows exactly what he is doing. My 9 year old has know right from wrong for many years.

if my children aren't accountable to God before they are 8, why are they accountable to me as a parent? Should I not discipline my kids till they are 8? Why do I put myself before God?

The reason I discipline my kids is because they are violating the law of God which commands them to honor and obey. They are sinning. I as a parent am holding them accountable to God's law and according to the LDS I am doing so before God holds them accountable to God's law. If I discipline my children for anything besides their failure to obey God's law I am sinning. I am to raise them in the fear and admonition of the Lord. They are to be taught from day one to honor their parents. To obey even when they don't want to, just as we are to obey God when our desire is otherwise.

There is none without sin, yet somehow children are exempt.

Would the parents of young children who hold to the LDS view of "age of accountability" explain why their children who rebel against them are accountable to them as parents, but not accountable to God?

[Connolly]

If by accountability you mean knowing right from wrong, it is not something that you can draw a hard line at. A four year old definitely knows some things are wrong. A ten year old is still definitely ignorant of some things which are wrong (at least we hope a ten year old is still ignorant about some things).

However, in you 19 years as an exmormon, you seem to have forgotten that baptism is a covenant. And the person making the covenant needs to be old enough to at least understand that they are making a covenant with God. That is what we mean by accountability.

[Kate]

I am a Christian who believes in Padobaptism (infant baptism). I'm also an ex-mormon of 19 years. I have 3 wonderful children 9, 20 months and 5 months. What I am wondering is how anyone who has raised children can believe that kids aren't just as sinful as the rest of us? When my 20 month old is doing something wrong he is looking around to see if anyone is looking. He knows exactly what he is doing. My 9 year old has know right from wrong for many years.

if my children aren't accountable to God before they are 8, why are they accountable to me as a parent? Should I not discipline my kids till they are 8? Why do I put myself before God?

The reason I discipline my kids is because they are violating the law of God which commands them to honor and obey. They are sinning. I as a parent am holding them accountable to God's law and according to the LDS I am doing so before God holds them accountable to God's law. If I discipline my children for anything besides their failure to obey God's law I am sinning. I am to raise them in the fear and admonition of the Lord. They are to be taught from day one to honor their parents. To obey even when they don't want to, just as we are to obey God when our desire is otherwise.

There is none without sin, yet somehow children are exempt.

Would the parents of young children who hold to the LDS view of "age of accountability" explain why their children who rebel against them are accountable to them as parents, but not accountable to God?

Children are constantly testing and learning. My take on it is that yes, some will understand right from wrong sooner than others, but more importantly is understanding how the atonement works in their lives; how it applies to their sins; and what repentence is. Of course at 8, they really only grasp the basics, but it is our duty as parents to train up a child in the way that they should go. It is our duty to teach them about faith and repentence. Once they understand that, then it makes more sense to be considered to be accountable.

~Kate

[Kate]

I am a Christian who believes in Padobaptism (infant baptism).

Can you show how the Bible says that infant baptism is necessary?

[johnny]

Kate

Can you show how the Bible says that infant baptism is necessary?

Try John 3:3,5 ... Jesus taught "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God".

Jesus who was without personal sin was baptized to fulfill all righteousness.

[Avatar4321]

Kate

Try John 3:3,5 ... Jesus taught "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God".

Jesus who was without personal sin was baptized to fulfill all righteousness.

Yet, that doesnt even address the question asked.

[John Larsen]

I am a Christian who believes in Padobaptism (infant baptism). I'm also an ex-mormon of 19 years. I have 3 wonderful children 9, 20 months and 5 months. What I am wondering is how anyone who has raised children can believe that kids aren't just as sinful as the rest of us? When my 20 month old is doing something wrong he is looking around to see if anyone is looking. He knows exactly what he is doing. My 9 year old has know right from wrong for many years.

if my children aren't accountable to God before they are 8, why are they accountable to me as a parent? Should I not discipline my kids till they are 8? Why do I put myself before God?

If a 20 month old dies before receiving baptism, what happens to them in the afterlife in your belief system. Do they go to hell?

[johnny]

Avatar4321

Yet, that doesnt even address the question asked.

The question was "Can you show how the Bible says that infant baptism is necessary? " ...

John 3 shows that baptism is necessary to enter the kingdom of God, Jesus does not mention age of accountability in his statement.

[hordak]

Kate

Try John 3:3,5 ... Jesus taught "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God".

Jesus who was without personal sin was baptized to fulfill all righteousness.

According to the Jews one doesn't become a man until 13(?) at there barmitzfa.

It may have been different then but i doubt it was younger then 8.

[Catholic Girl]

I'm still waiting for LDS to show me proof in the scriptures where children upon having reached the age of accountability raised in a family of believers were then baptized.

[johnny]

hordak

According to the Jews one doesn't become a man until 13(?) at there barmitzfa.

Do you think baptism is necessary to enter the kingdom of God?

In John 3 does "man" include male and female?

[Buckeye]

Children of all ages feel the effects of flesh - they hunger, thirst, anger, etc. Because of this, children of all ages can cause harm and, depending on their maturity, can also knowingly do wrong (ie be culpable). This includes children under the age of eight.

However, children under the "age of accountability" are not accountable for their misdeeds. This is because of the atonement of Christ, which acts differently for persons under the "age of accountability" than for those above the age. For those under the age, the atonement covers all culpability. The child therefore stands innocent before God, not on his own merits, but because of Christ.

For those above the age, the atonement postpones an immediate damnation, giving the person the opportunity to repent. In this regard, the merits of Christ are not automatic, but must be sought and accepted through repentenace.

I'm still waiting for LDS to show me proof in the scriptures where children upon having reached the age of accountability raised in a family of believers were then baptized.

Here you go:

D&C 68: 25, 27

And again, inasmuch as parents have children in Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized, that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ the Son of the living God, and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents.

â?¢ â?¢ â?¢

And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old, and receive the laying on of the hands.

[Traela]

Psychologists have found that children generally develop an internal conscience when they are about 7 years old. In other words, they start knowing right from wrong as intrinsic values, rather than just what their parents will or won't allow. This corresponds with the LDS view that little children are not necessarily sinless, but certainly not accountable.

[hordak]

hordak

Do you think baptism is necessary to enter the kingdom of God?

If the Christians turn out to be right and the bible is true then given your quote and the fact Jesus was baptized i would say yes.

In John 3 does "man" include male and female?

I believe so. In the same way i can say "hey guys come here" when addressing a group of females.

That being said the idea of a God who would punish a 5 year old to eternal torment in hell for stealing a gumball or not getting baptized when we with our limited human compassion and knowledge can understand the difference between that and a real criminal/ sinner is absurd. A God like that is a tyrant and is keeping more in the tradition of Cronus then Christ.

I personally think 8 is too young to be baptized if it holds us to a higher standard.

[Kate]

KateTry John 3:3,5 ... Jesus taught "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God". Jesus who was without personal sin was baptized to fulfill all righteousness.

Exactly, and he wasn't baptized as an infant. I KNOW baptism is required. And though I don't have time to do this right now, I have to go to work, there are many scriptures throughout the New Testament that show that certain things are required with baptism that an infant could in no way do. I'll get back to you on that.~Kate

I'm still waiting for LDS to show me proof in the scriptures where children upon having reached the age of accountability raised in a family of believers were then baptized.

As I said to Johnny, I will be back tonight to answer this...gotta go to work.

[Kreno]

Do you believe in free will and agency? By you choosing to baptize your infant. You take away the choice. Is a Baptism still valid if it is forced on anyone? By what authority does someone have to enforce a belief on anyone?

[Kreno]

I'm still waiting for LDS to show me proof in the scriptures where children upon having reached the age of accountability raised in a family of believers were then baptized.

CG, good morning, Where are the examples of infant baptism in the scriptures?

[johnny]

hordak

That being said the idea of a God who would punish a 5 year old to eternal torment in hell for stealing a gumball or not getting baptized when we with our limited human compassion and knowledge can understand the difference between that and a real criminal/ sinner is absurd. A God like that is a tyrant and is keeping more in the tradition of Cronus then Christ.

An unbaptized 5 year old is entrusted to the mercy of God, the 5 year old is not automatically punished to eternal torment in hell.

[hordak]

hordak

An unbaptized 5 year old is entrusted to the mercy of God, the 5 year old is not automatically punished to eternal torment in hell.

Cool.

Then what would be the standard? What age is the cut off and why rush to baptize kids/infants ?

[johnny]

Kate

Exactly, and he wasn't baptized as an infant. I KNOW baptism is required. And though I don't have time to do this right now, I have to go to work, there are many scriptures throughout the New Testament that show that certain things are required with baptism that an infant could in no way do. I'll get back to you on that.~Kate

Sounds good â?¦ I might add that infants do not have personal sin so there is no need for them to repent.

[Catholic Girl]

Children of all ages feel the effects of flesh - they hunger, thirst, anger, etc. Because of this, children of all ages can cause harm and, depending on their maturity, can also knowingly do wrong (ie be culpable). This includes children under the age of eight.

However, children under the "age of accountability" are not accountable for their misdeeds. This is because of the atonement of Christ, which acts differently for persons under the "age of accountability" than for those above the age. For those under the age, the atonement covers all culpability. The child therefore stands innocent before God, not on his own merits, but because of Christ.

For those above the age, the atonement postpones an immediate damnation, giving the person the opportunity to repent. In this regard, the merits of Christ are not automatic, but must be sought and accepted through repentenace.

Here you go:

Uh yeah--obviously I should have been specific about what I meant when I said "scriptures".

Where in the BIBLE will I find evidence that young children reaching the age of accountability raised in a family of believers were then baptized?

[Lightbearer]

I am a Christian who believes in Padobaptism (infant baptism). I'm also an ex-mormon of 19 years. I have 3 wonderful children 9, 20 months and 5 months. What I am wondering is how anyone who has raised children can believe that kids aren't just as sinful as the rest of us? When my 20 month old is doing something wrong he is looking around to see if anyone is looking. He knows exactly what he is doing. My 9 year old has know right from wrong for many years.

if my children aren't accountable to God before they are 8, why are they accountable to me as a parent? Should I not discipline my kids till they are 8? Why do I put myself before God?

The reason I discipline my kids is because they are violating the law of God which commands them to honor and obey. They are sinning. I as a parent am holding them accountable to God's law and according to the LDS I am doing so before God holds them accountable to God's law. If I discipline my children for anything besides their failure to obey God's law I am sinning. I am to raise them in the fear and admonition of the Lord. They are to be taught from day one to honor their parents. To obey even when they don't want to, just as we are to obey God when our desire is otherwise.

There is none without sin, yet somehow children are exempt.

Would the parents of young children who hold to the LDS view of "age of accountability" explain why their children who rebel against them are accountable to them as parents, but not accountable to God?

Perhaps the following may answer your questions from the LDS viewpoint:

(Moroni 8:8-26) "Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me. And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children. Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teachâ??repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children. And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins. But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism! Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell. Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell. For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism. Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God; and I fear not what man can do; for perfect love casteth out all fear. And I am filled with charity, which is everlasting love; wherefore, all children are alike unto me; wherefore, I love little children with a perfect love; and they are all alike and partakers of salvation. For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity. Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy. And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption. Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. I speak it boldly; God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed, or they stand against you at the judgment-seat of Christ. For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothingâ?? But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works. Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law. And the first fruits of repentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins; And the remission of sins bringeth meekness, and lowliness of heart; and because of meekness and lowliness of heart cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which Comforter filleth with hope and perfect love, which love endureth by diligence unto prayer, until the end shall come, when all the saints shall dwell with God."

I think that says it all, I can only add that if parents do not teach their children the principles of the Gospel then the sin is upon the heads of the parents, any rebellion or sins are the parent's fault because they have not taught them. Children are holy and are alive in Christ, therefore they are not accountable for sin, their parents are accountable to God and when the children arrive at the age of accountability then they are accountable.

[johnny]

hordak

Cool.Then what would be the standard? What age is the cut off and why rush to baptize kids/infants ?

That standard would be up to God. God is all knowing and he knows an individuals desire. Infants are baptized because Jesus taught "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God".

[Catholic Girl]

CG, good morning, Where are the examples of infant baptism in the scriptures?

I will answer that question with a question.

Where are the examples in the Bible where young children raised in a family of believers were then baptized upon reaching the age of accountability?

[johnny]

Kreno

Do you believe in free will and agency? By you choosing to baptize your infant. You take away the choice. Is a Baptism still valid if it is forced on anyone? By what authority does someone have to enforce a belief on anyone

An infant who is baptized can choose later in life. Infant Baptism is not forcing it on anyone.

The idea that an infant automatically enters the kingdom of God denies that individual his free will and agency.