For Critics: What Do You Like About The Lds Church?

[John Williams]

We critics spend a lot of time talking about what doesn't work in the LDS church and what isn't true, but I suspect that most of us find a lot to admire in Mormonism. Here's my list. What do you find that is positive in the LDS church?

- Focus on education. I grew up knowing I was expected to go to college, and I was taught in church and at home that learning is its own end. I'm grateful for that.

- Opportunities for speaking. I received a promotion back in Texas because I was the only person in my department who wasn't afraid to speak in public. That comes from years of speaking and teaching in church, as well as missionary work.

- Work ethic. I was taught to work hard, and two years in Bolivia taught me how to do it consistently.

- Community. I always felt (and still do) part of a community of people who all wanted to serve God the best way we could.

- Appreciation for ancestors. I know a lot more about my ancestors and their lives because of the church's emphasis on family history. It's still one of my passions in life.

-Charity. I have been in so many people's homes giving service, and I have had a lot of opportunities to make a real difference, such as in cleaning up after two hurricanes.

- The worth of souls. The church's teaching that every person is a valued child of God has helped me try to treat others with kindness and compassion, no matter who they are.

- Commitment to truth. Mormonism taught me that finding and following truth is paramount in life.

[aaronshaf]

Strong commitment to conservative ethics. Tight-knit families. Dancing.

[Mudcat]

Mrs. Mudcat would be at the top of the list.

[Luigi]

I think the LDS Church provides individuals with a community in which traits that lead to social harmony and reciprocity are reinforced through instilled beliefs and social pressures. The reassurance of these traits being reinforced creates a sense of security that is complemented by the security found in belief in a loving God who guides and protects and belief in an afterlife. This security can help individuals to focus on some of the tasks which can contribute to self-fulfillment including: establishing family relationships and producing resources to be devoted first towards one's family and then to one's social group.

This is what I said that I felt the Church did well on another thread I started on a similar topic. I guess I would add to my statement that besides providing the security that "can help individuals to focus on some of the tasks which can contribute to self-fulfillment" the Church also encourages individuals through social pressure and instilled beliefs to focus on such tasks.

[cinepro]

- Roadshows

- Scouting program

- Members are generally honest, sociable, and have a sense of humor.

- Flexibility in doctrine and practices, so we're not stuck with polygamy, priesthood ban, or the traveling CES sideshow of "Know Your Religion" forever.

- Word of Wisdom

- Emphasis on chastity and modesty (even if some people go a little overboard. T-shirts and halter tops are mutually exclusive fashion items, people.)

- Prophet-selection process designed so even the nuttiest apostle has their quirky views on politics or doctrine worn down by the advancing years.

- Church building program gives tithing members nice chapels, Temples, and shopping malls to enjoy.

- And of course, I met my hot wife through Church related activities, so to whatever degree I can give credit to the Church for that, it's a big +.

[blueadept]

- My wife is definitely on top of my list!!!

- Work ethics in doing your best

- Good moral standards

- Members have a testimony. If you ask a Mormon why they believe, they will ALWAYS tell you. Since it's not in the nature for other Christians to give a testimony, they normally are not as 'good' at it.

- Interest in Family History - as a non-member, I'm a history nut in regards to everything except for family history. I heard my wife talk with a friend who belonged to the Daughters of the American Revolution and the passion they had talking amongst themselves. It was amazing that I loved the biographies of all those people but I have no interest in family history. Oh well.

[smac97]

We critics spend a lot of time talking about what doesn't work in the LDS church and what isn't true, but I suspect that most of us find a lot to admire in Mormonism. Here's my list. What do you find that is positive in the LDS church?

- Focus on education. I grew up knowing I was expected to go to college, and I was taught in church and at home that learning is its own end. I'm grateful for that.

I never had to ask myself whether or not I would go to college. It was a given.

Both my parents have college degrees. My dad has two master's degrees (in English and an MBA). My older brother has a master's degree and a law degree. My other older brother has an MSW and is working toward a PhD. My younger sister has a college degree. My mother-in-law just graduated last week from the University of Washington with a bachelor's degree in nursing. My sister-in-law has a master's degree in theatrical directing, and her husband has a master's in theatrical lighting and design. Many family members have taken substantial college courses, but have not yet finished their degrees.

All told, in my extended family (parents, siblings and spouses), have about 23 bachelor's and advanced degrees. I think much (most) of these are attributable to the strong emphasis on education within the Church.

- Opportunities for speaking. I received a promotion back in Texas because I was the only person in my department who wasn't afraid to speak in public. That comes from years of speaking and teaching in church, as well as missionary work.

My ward only has about 16-20 kids in the entire primary on any given week. Four of these are mine. So at least one of my kids has an assignment to read a scripture, give a prayer, give a talk, etc. almost every Sunday.

My wife, a rather reserved person, is in the RS presidency, and so has had ample opportunities to run meeting and give talks.

I was previously the Gospel Doctrine teacher (lessons every week) and am now on the High Council (talks about 7-10 times per year).

All of us have had ample opportunities with public speaking because of the Church.

- Work ethic. I was taught to work hard, and two years in Bolivia taught me how to do it consistently.

I feel I got my work ethic from the Army (which I then put to good use as a missionary). However, I joined the Army out of a sense of patriotism (espoused by the Church) and to pay for college (espoused by the Church).

- Community. I always felt (and still do) part of a community of people who all wanted to serve God the best way we could.

I'm glad you feel part of the community.

You live in Provo, right? When can we go to lunch?

- Appreciation for ancestors. I know a lot more about my ancestors and their lives because of the church's emphasis on family history. It's still one of my passions in life.

I've learned all sorts of things about this. An ancestor on my mother's side was the first mayor and bishop of American Fork, UT. An ancestor on my father's side, Alexander F. Macdonald, founded and was the first mayor of Mesa, AZ (Macdonald Avenue in Mesa is named after him). AF was later a patriarch and one of two sealers in Colonia Juarez, MX. AF was also Brigham Young's agent for many years in Southern Utah. He also frequently visited John D. Lee when he was at Lee's Ferry (this association became interesting to me when I married a descendant of John D. Lee).

I've grown up with stories about my ancestors, so I don't really have a frame of reference to not know about such things. And the emphasis on ancestry is, once again, attributable to the Church.

-Charity. I have been in so many people's homes giving service, and I have had a lot of opportunities to make a real difference, such as in cleaning up after two hurricanes.

- The worth of souls. The church's teaching that every person is a valued child of God has helped me try to treat others with kindness and compassion, no matter who they are.

- Commitment to truth. Mormonism taught me that finding and following truth is paramount in life.

Great post. Thanks.

-Smac

[consiglieri]

I think the very fact that JohnW would even post such a thread goes to demonstrate the largeness of spirit I have long suspected him of possessing.

So, though off-topic, I would say that is something I have learned to appreciate about former Mormons.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[BarrelO'Mangoes]

I don't think of myself as a critic, really -- maybe bored?

I really appreciate the focus on education. There appears to be a focus on music instruction, as well, that I find very admirable. The ability to organize quickly and efficiently to help others in need is definitely a positive! The Church can give some members a sense of belonging and community that may be quite helpful in their lives. The comfort that some derive from the teachings of an afterlife I see as a psychological positive, quite possibly.

Really, I think the focus on Jesus and his teachings is the most positive aspect of the Church.

[Libs]

What I loved most about the church was the people. I still have many good LDS friends. We still share many basic values. Generally speaking, LDS have good moral values, are very loving and giving people. They are, generally, excellent friends and neighbors, always there with a helping hand.

[oceanblue]

There are many things I can appreciate about the church's views and practices.

1. Salvation for all. Other than the SoP, everyone goes to something better than here. Not too shabby.

2. Charm. Mormons are charming. They're quaint and quirky always 30 seconds from a potato sack race in the backyard. Sort of like the Brady Bunch...but less likely to make 6 kids share one bathroom.

3. Adaptable. I know Mormons might debate this, but this is a religion that changes over the years. I've seen it just in the 10 or so years I've been out of the faith. That's a positive to me.

4. Mormons aren't attached at the hip to the Bible. That book can be a bit nutty. When/where it is nutty, as often as not, Mormons know it's nutty. Most religions refuse to see the forest for the tree when it comes to the Bible.

Others here have hit on various other points I would agree with.

[John Larsen]

â?¢ I like the strong sense of local ownership of the congregation.

â?¢ I like that you are forced to serve in areas that might be outside of your comfort zone.

â?¢ I like the turn taking aspect to service.

â?¢ I like the sense of community

â?¢ I like the idea of â??forcedâ? communityâ??that we are strongly in it together, not that we select the congregation that most â??speaksâ? to us.

â?¢ I like that families worship together.

â?¢ I like that Mormons are a people.

â?¢ I like the scope of service, from yard work, to canning, to flood relief.

â?¢ I like that the preaching is done by the lay membership.

â?¢ I like that children and youth can participate.

â?¢ I like that you have an immediate family willing to help, no matter where you go.

â?¢ I like that members are almost always honest and trusting.

â?¢ I like the strong sense of ownership Mormons feel about their faith.

â?¢ I like how open and welcoming Mormons are.

â?¢ I like that the teaching of the Church tend to contribute to ethics and citizenship.

â?¢ I like that Mormons like to work to better their communities.

I could go on and on.

[wenglund]

These positive remarks are valued greatly by me, and I sincerely mean that!

As with consig., they help me to view the critics more positively. What a nice win-win.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Tarski]

1. They sent me to Japan.

2. No Biblical inerrantism.

3. Emphasis on education.

4. The LDS religion helps promote taboos that makes breaking said taboos more exciting (just kidding).

[flameburns623]

â?¢ I like the strong sense of local ownership of the congregation.

â?¢ I like that you are forced to serve in areas that might be outside of your comfort zone.

â?¢ I like the turn taking aspect to service.

â?¢ I like the sense of community

â?¢ I like the idea of â??forcedâ? communityâ??that we are strongly in it together, not that we select the congregation that most â??speaksâ? to us.

â?¢ I like that families worship together.

â?¢ I like that Mormons are a people.

â?¢ I like the scope of service, from yard work, to canning, to flood relief.

â?¢ I like that the preaching is done by the lay membership.

â?¢ I like that children and youth can participate.

â?¢ I like that you have an immediate family willing to help, no matter where you go.

â?¢ I like that members are almost always honest and trusting.

â?¢ I like the strong sense of ownership Mormons feel about their faith.

â?¢ I like how open and welcoming Mormons are.

â?¢ I like that the teaching of the Church tend to contribute to ethics and citizenship.

â?¢ I like that Mormons like to work to better their communities.

I could go on and on.

1+.

In addition I appreciate the essentially conservative but balanced and flexible value system. Despite the concern I have that 'flexibility' sometimes leads to drift and/or decadence. . . .

[spinner]

4. The LDS religion helps promote taboos that makes breaking said taboos more exciting (just kidding).

Some for me:

-Encourages strong families and in particular responsible parenting

-Has lots of indoor gyms where I can play basketball

-Emphasizes education

-Keeps senior citizens active in the community by making them General Authorities (kidding)

-Encourages thrift and financial independence

-If the church didn't exist, neither would BYU football

-If the church didn't exist, I probably wouldn't either as my parents probably would have quit before they got to me

-It makes many of its members happy

-The way that Mormons chip in to help each other (e.g., helping a new family moving into or out of a ward unpack)

Any Mormons want to take a turn and list the things they like about atheism now?

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]

Any Mormons want to take a turn and list the things they like about atheism now?

Start a thread.

[wenglund]

Any Mormons want to take a turn and list the things they like about atheism now?

I like how atheists, like religionists, are comfortible feeling confident about spiritual beliefs absent definitive evidence. In other words, I admire their openness to being faith-based in many of their convictions--including disbelief in God and spiritual matters.

I very much appreciated joining forces with atheists when mutually maligned by those with equal-opportunity religious prejudice at web sites like CARM.

I value and share their respect for the natural and the scientific.

I find it useful that they cause me to explore and test the depths of my own religious beliefs (which, gratefully, have been strengthened in faith thereby), and encourage me in broadening the horizons of my understanding.

I appreciate that their faith-tradition tends to stand for things, rather than against things. (Just kidding!!)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[BarrelO'Mangoes]

In other words, I admire their openness to being faith-based in many of their convictions--including disbelief in God and spiritual matters.

Urgh. Faith is belief in something without evidence. How can disbelief in God be faith based? Am I missing something every time this is stated? Do I have faith that there is no such thing as the Oogey Boogey Man? Is my disbelief faith?

I very much appreciated joining forces with atheists when mutually maligned by those with equal-opportunity religious prejudice at web sites like CARM.

Yah, I'll tell you what, I just have to go to CARM every so often to remind myself why I appreciate LDS so much... Of course LDS (on the boards from what I've witnessed) say many of the same things about atheists that CARM Christians do. Yet, it's fun to join forces, if only momentarily.

[oceanblue]

Urgh. Faith is belief in something without evidence. How can disbelief in God be faith based? Am I missing something every time this is stated? Do I have faith that there is no such thing as the Oogey Boogey Man? Is my disbelief faith?

Faith is belief in something with evidence. Faith is not belief in something with proof. An atheist has no proof that there is no God. Just tons of evidence (ITO). I'd say it's one and the same with one who feels there is evidence there is a God.

[BarrelO'Mangoes]

Faith is belief in something with evidence. Faith is not belief in something with proof. An atheist has no proof that there is no God. Just tons of evidence (ITO). I'd say it's one and the same with one who feels there is evidence there is a God.

Well, I just wanted to double check I understood the term faith and I looked up about 3 different definitions that fit mine and found this on wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith

Faith is a belief in the trustworthiness of an idea that one has not been proven formally and cannot prove formally. In short, it is belief in the absence of evidence.

Why do you need faith to believe in something that has evidence to support it?

I don't need proof to believe there is no God. Those that claim there is a God need the proof - unless they rely on faith. I don't claim there is no God. I just don't believe there is a God.

You think my disbelief in the Loch Ness Monster is based on faith? What about my disbelief in Zeus? How about my disbelief in the wee folks and their pot of gold? That's faith?

[LifeOnaPlate]

That comparison demands that belief in God and belief in the Loch Ness Monster are one and the same. Circular.

[BarrelO'Mangoes]

That comparison demands that belief in God and belief in the Loch Ness Monster are one and the same. Circular.

No, it doesn't. The issue was what is faith. Wade made a comment that atheists lack of belief in God (paraphrasing) is based on faith. My assertion is that faith is belief in something without evidence. How can UNBELIEF in something that lacks evidence require faith?

I'm not equating belief in God with the Loch Ness Monster. I am attempting to show there are MANY things that are not believed and we don't use faith for our unbelief. Those that believe without evidence are the ones that rely on faith.

[Johnny Rotten]

I love much of the doctrine;

1. We have a loving Father and Mother in Heaven who wants us to inherit all they haveâ?¦we can become Gods and Goddesses.

2. The work for the dead.

3. Eternal families.

4. Universal Priesthood for all malesâ?¦and an argument can be made that Joseph extended these blessing to women through the endowment.

5. The gifts of exaltation and salvation.

6. The fact we donâ??t believe in a Hellâ?¦at least the way the Evâ??s do.

7. Choice and the doctrine of agency.

8. The idea that God continues to speak to man and give direction to his people.

9. I like being part of a chosen people.

10. I loved the doctrines about America prophetic role and the Zion concept.

11. Iâ??m sure there are many, many, more doctrines I love!

I love a lot about the culture of the Church;

1. The feeling of belonging and community.

2. The love and concern of leaders.

3. The Church values the contribution of everyone including the misfits and nerds.

4. The Church welfare system.

5. The way the Church makes most people better.

6. The can do attitude of the members of the Church.

7. The self-sufficiency of the Church and its membership.

8. The love of knowledge.

9. BYUâ?¦Cougar football!

10. Utah is a great stateâ?¦even though I live in the Northwest I love Utah!

11. Public speaking a big plus.

12. Service projects.

13. Home teaching.

14. The Ward family.

15. The opportunity to serve others in the Church.

16. We learn how to put on @$$ kickâ?? in events.

17. Road shows

18. Boy Scouts

19. The effort to seek for perfectionâ?¦to be all you can be!

20. The emphasis on education.

21. The love of history and specifically family history

22. Word of Wisdom

23. The emphasis on being morally clean

24. The conservative living taught by the leaders of the Church

25. The values, truth, integrity, honesty, kindness, charity, love, compassion etc.

26. My work ethic.

27. Iâ??m sure there is much, much more!

Nowâ?¦this said there are many things I find very damaging about the Church including many of its teachings and doctrines. The Church, its community and my parents made me who I am today.

Best,

Johnny Rotten

[wenglund]

Urgh. Faith is belief in something without evidence. How can disbelief in God be faith based? Am I missing something every time this is stated? Do I have faith that there is no such thing as the Oogey Boogey Man? Is my disbelief faith?

In my mind I view religious-related faith along a spectrum, with disbelief (atheism) on one end and ardent belief on the other, and with unbelief (agnosticism) in the middle. To me, the middle of the spectrum entails a lack of belief and faith (or an absense of convincing evidence), but the more one moves to either end of the spectrum, the greater the faith (and the more convincing the evidence). In other words, the more strongly one disbelieves or believes in the existence of God, the greater one's faith either way.

Others are free to see it differently.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-