Jaredite Steel?

[John Williams]

Again, Jaredite smelting is not an anachronism. It existed in the Old World they left from, and there is nothing that would have prevented them from bringing it with them the New World.

You can argue that there is no known evidence for it in the New World, but it is not anachronistic.

As I mentioned before, your citations of pre-Jaredite smelting are incidences of accidental by-products of copper smelting. In Ether, you have deliberate mining and smelting of "steel." Are you suggesting that Shule accidentally smelted iron to make the swords?

So, you're right that there is no known evidence for smelting in the New World, but there is no evidence for deliberate iron smelting that early in the Old World, either.

[SolarPowered]

As I mentioned before, your citations of pre-Jaredite smelting are incidences of accidental by-products of copper smelting.

I know of no record contemporaneous with the ancient examples of Old World smelting that states that said smelting was "accidental." In fact, the work you cited explicitly states:

A number of tested objects from the Bronze Age, however, showed no nickel and hence (presumably) were the product of smelting operations, though whether they resulted from deliberate smelting of iron ores or were byproducts of copper or lead smelting is still unknown.

And, in fact, what you quoted earlier is clearly couched in terms of speculation, not of knowledge.

Generally, when someone produces something useful by accident, they then repeat the same process with deliberate intent for the purpose of making more.

I know of no chemical test that can discern between steel that was produced "accidentally," and steel that was produced intentionally using the same procedure.

[Zakuska]

Barney's article somewhat successfully explains Nephi's steel bow, but does not apply to Shule's swords, which are "molten" from the mountain into steel. The problem is still there, and it's still anachronistic.

But I love the Grangely piece.

No its not "anachronistic".

Steele was being moltened in variopus parts of the world. One of your sources even said that in the process of Moltening Copper steele was sometimes a by product, Do you deny they where moltening copper at the time?

Its more correct to say... No evidence of Molten steele at the time in the americas has been found.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

When were these scriptures written?

2 Sam. 22: 35

35 He teacheth my hands to war; so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms.

Job 20: 24

24 He shall flee from the iron weapon, and the bow of steel shall strike him through.

Ps. 18: 34

34 He teacheth my hands to war, so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms.

Were there steel bows then? Or does this disprove the Bible?

[Zakuska]

Most critics look at these verses and the references to borken steele bows in the BOM as JS's week atempt of Plagerism.

[Warship]

Smelting was certainly going on before 1000 ad, unless one wants to wrongly argue that tumbaga, a gold/copper alloy, is naturally occuring.

In Honduras a claw shaped bead of tumbaga was found dating at or before 500 ad. This is close to both the time period and supposed location of the Nephites.

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/168/3927/116

Tumbaga is comparative to bronze and can be hardenedâ?¦the KJV bible would most likely have called it steel in its hardened form. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumbaga

This tumbaga bead most likely came from Panama, which leads me to a different problem. While I do think the date for metallurgy in Central America will most certainly be pressed back as more is discovered and it may even possibly be proven that Guatamala (LGT) did have knowledge of metallurgy during BOM times but that most objects have been melted down and reusedâ?¦the real problem is that this area is notoriously lacking in natural deposits of gold, silver, etc. And the BOM is just as specific that these precious metals were found in their land as it is about their smelting of those metals.

Jacob 2

[12] And now behold, my brethren, this is the word which I declare unto you, that many of you have begun to search for gold, and for silver, and for all manner of precious ores, in the which this land, which is a land of promise unto you and to your seed, doth abound most plentifully.

See also Jacob 1:16, Jarom 1:8

Helaman 6

[9] And it came to pass that they became exceedingly rich, both the Lamanites and the Nephites; and they did have an exceeding plenty of gold, and of silver, and of all manner of precious metals, both in the land south and in the land north.

[11] And behold, there was all manner of gold in both these lands, and of silver, and of precious ore of every kind; and there were also curious workmen, who did work all kinds of ore and did refine it; and thus they did become rich.

The Nephites were obviously somewhere where the land was rich with precious metalsâ?¦the current LGT theory has them located in a land devoid of such.

[John Williams]

Smelting was certainly going on before 1000 ad, unless one wants to wrongly argue that tumbaga, a gold/copper alloy, is naturally occuring.

In Honduras a claw shaped bead of tumbaga was found dating at or before 500 ad. This is close to both the time period and supposed location of the Nephites.

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/168/3927/116

Tumbaga is comparative to bronze and can be hardenedâ?¦the KJV bible would most likely have called it steel in its hardened form. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumbaga

This tumbaga bead most likely came from Panama, which leads me to a different problem. While I do think the date for metallurgy in Central America will most certainly be pressed back as more is discovered and it may even possibly be proven that Guatamala (LGT) did have knowledge of metallurgy during BOM times but that most objects have been melted down and reusedâ?¦the real problem is that this area is notoriously lacking in natural deposits of gold, silver, etc. And the BOM is just as specific that these precious metals were found in their land as it is about their smelting of those metals.

See also Jacob 1:16, Jarom 1:8

The Nephites were obviously somewhere where the land was rich with precious metalsâ?¦the current LGT theory has them located in a land devoid of such.

This might be relevant if we were talking about Nephite smelting. We're not.

[Warship]

It was relevant to your incorrect assertion that there was no smelting prior to 1000ad.

[John Williams]

It was relevant to your incorrect assertion that there was no smelting prior to 1000ad.

My assertion was that smelting came into being in the late classic period, sometime around or before 900-1000 AD. Your post moves things back a few hundred years to earlier in the classic period (and I think the evidence you cited is pretty solid), but that's still nowhere near relevant to Jaredite smelting, which is the topic here.

[Warship]

You also spoke directly about the Nephites in your OPâ?¦

John W

But metallurgy was not known among even the later Mayans corresponding to Nephite/Lamanites timelines: "There are certain things about the Maya landscape, about life in the tropics, and about the kind of â??technologyâ? available to the ancient Maya that help people of the twentieth century to understand a little better what their lives were really like. They were, first of all, a stone age people, without metal of any kind until several centuries before the Conquest. All they accomplished was done by means of stone tools, utilizing human beings as their beasts of burden" (Linda Schele, Forest of Kings, 60).

â?¦but I suppose it was irrelevant.

And your assertion did not say anything about â??beforeâ?â?¦

John W

Why would FARMS be laughed at for saying what everyone else has (including me)? Everyone agrees that metallurgy emerges in the Americas around 900-1000 AD. That was my point in the OP, which apparently you now agree with.

[John Williams]

You also spoke directly about the Nephites in your OPâ?¦

â?¦but I suppose it was irrelevant.

And your assertion did not say anything about â??beforeâ?â?¦

OK, I was wrong. Who would have imagined? You win: tumbaga was being smelted approximately 100 years after the Book of Mormon draws to a close.

[Warship]

I was trying to place the metallurgy close to the theorized LGT of the BOM...but contrary to your quick assesment smelting in the Americas must actually date back to at least 2100 BC(more relevant to Jaredite smelting?). In Malposa, Peru a bead made of a silver copper alloy was found dating to 2100BC.

http://books.google.com/books?id=5lGWwZ4tb...ZaLOE#PPA175,M1

page 175

Gilding, soldering, welding, and the making of alloys were all employed before the first century BC. If the LGT theory were focused in the Peruvian highlands instead of the Guatamalan highlands this thread would be quite different.

So smelting has a much earlier history than approximately 100 years after the BOM draws to a close.

[John Williams]

I was trying to place the metallurgy close to the theorized LGT of the BOM...but contrary to your quick assesment smelting in the Americas must actually date back to at least 2100 BC(more relevant to Jaredite smelting?). In Malposa, Peru a bead made of a silver copper alloy was found dating to 2100BC.

http://books.google.com/books?id=5lGWwZ4tb...ZaLOE#PPA175,M1

page 175

Gilding, soldering, welding, and the making of alloys were all employed before the first century BC. If the LGT theory were focused in the Peruvian highlands instead of the Guatamalan highlands this thread would be quite different.

So smelting has a much earlier history than approximately 100 years after the BOM draws to a close.

This is what is so frustrating for me about Book of Mormon apologetics. For the population numbers and landscape features to work, you have to place the action among the Maya (or possibly in the Isthmus of Niagara/Great Lakes area). But for the descriptions of technology, flora, and fauna, you have to spread out to a hemispheric model: barley in Arizona, copper smelting in Peru, and Zak's favorite chickens in Chile.

I think Joseph Smith was thinking of a hemispheric model when he wrote the book. I don't think he gave much thought to the idea that almost two centuries later people would be haggling over the meaning of "steel" or arguing over what a day's journey means.

[Bill Hamblin]

Some of the ideas found here might be helpful

http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/Stee..._of_Mormon.html

[MormonMason]

John W,

There are several problems with the argument you advance.

1. It looks like you are assuming that there should be smelting complexes where iron is smelted modern-fashion and made into swords. The Ancients did not smelt iron to make swords in that sense. They heated the ore until it became a bloom of molten metal about the consistency of play-doh, but harder. Then they hammered it out until it took shape. They did not use Bessemer furnaces or anything like them.

2. There is quite a gap in time between the swords used to kill thousands and the scripture reference you gave. The reference in 14:4 nowhere says that the swords by that time were made of metal.

3. Old World technology has no bearing on New World technology. The one does not connect with the other of necessity. Your quotation of a work dealing with Old World History is not relevant to Book of Mormon history.

4. Just because ironworking and the production of steel impliments can be dated to a certain period in African history does not negate the possibility that there were earlier uses and productions of the alloy. In point of fact, why don't you take a survey of the older books on the subject of ironworking and the making of steel tools and see how the dates have been getting pushed back about every couple decades or so. For all we know, new books a decade from now may detail the finding of a much earlier steel tech.

5. It was not a fairly wide technology. You might be able to say that it the swords at the latter-end of Jaredite civilization were made of steel, but the Book of Mormon is silent as to composition by that time. Once again, no smelting in the modern sense of the word took place with iron, so far as is known, in the ancient world. We cannot expect to find the remnants of the equivalents of Bessemer furnaces in the archaeological remains.

6. You quote from information on a Late Classic Maya site and expect it to debunk the idea of metalworking amongst the Jaredites? How so? From what I understand, there are words for metal in Mixe-Zoquean and the information I have seen to that effect places the date as far back as 1500 BCE. Why would words for metal exist in languages amongst people who never used metals or were not aware of them? That idea that there was no metallurgy amongst them just seems a ridiculous thing to say in light of the linguistic evidence for knowledge of metals in Mesoamerica. I couldn't care less what archaeology says when the words for things said not yet to exist are in the languages at periods predating the earliest archaeological remains of metallurgy.

7. The last mention of any metalworking in Ether is in 10:23, and nothing is said about swords or steel there. Did it become lost tech as it appeared to have done amongst the Nephites because it was impractical? Interesting thing about that passages is its description of diggin up heaps of earth to get the ore. We know that the Olmecs were indeed digging up heaps of earth to get to iron ores in very early times. They used the ores to make very highly polished concave mirrors. There may well have been other uses as well but they were likely decorative rather than utilitarian. Making steel the old fashioned way was a real pain in the rear and made it too expensive to use it on a wide scale like we do in modern times.

Just some observations. We need to make sure we are asking the right questions of the data and are not making assumptions based upon a modern world view.

[Benjamin McGuire]

John W writes:

To me, the steel anachronism is secondary to the smelting anachronism. Are you suggesting that the translator/redactor took editorial license with the text to indicate "moltening" when there was none?

Of course I am. We know that the translator/redactor took editorial licenses liberally in the text (that is, the text of the Book of Ether is a text written by Moroni, not some translation literal or otherwise of an earlier text) which means that for you to make the suggestion that Moroni's comments demonstrate an anachronism in Moroni's sources you have to first demonstrate the necessity of understanding the source of Moroni's comments to be the earlier material which then is included in Moroni's text in such a way as to preclude any modification or interpretation on the part of Moroni.

Personally, I don't think you can do this.

Ben

[Zakuska]

Re: Bessemer Furnaces.

We know they had furnace technology that could produce the temperatures need to do the Job, including fired bricks.

[John Williams]

John W,

There are several problems with the argument you advance.

1. It looks like you are assuming that there should be smelting complexes where iron is smelted modern-fashion and made into swords. The Ancients did not smelt iron to make swords in that sense. They heated the ore until it became a bloom of molten metal about the consistency of play-doh, but harder. Then they hammered it out until it took shape. They did not use Bessemer furnaces or anything like them.

Nope, I'm not assuming smelting complexes. I am distinguishing between working of metals and smelting, the latter of which is what seems to be described in the Book of Mormon. Earlier in the thread, we cited some authors who distinguished between annealing, which is the process you describe, and smelting. Annealing doesn't sound much like "moltening" to me, but obviously you disagree. Fair enough.

2. There is quite a gap in time between the swords used to kill thousands and the scripture reference you gave. The reference in 14:4 nowhere says that the swords by that time were made of metal.

Here's my problem here. Some apologists seem to argue that valuable Old World technologies arrived in the New World but then faded out. Why? What on earth would motivate people to abandon useful technology, particularly if it was as simple as you and rcrocket are describing: simply heating up metal and pounding it?

3. Old World technology has no bearing on New World technology. The one does not connect with the other of necessity. Your quotation of a work dealing with Old World History is not relevant to Book of Mormon history.

It's been the apologists on this thread who have been attempting to connect Old World technology with Jaredit/Nephite technology. Not me.

4. Just because ironworking and the production of steel impliments can be dated to a certain period in African history does not negate the possibility that there were earlier uses and productions of the alloy. In point of fact, why don't you take a survey of the older books on the subject of ironworking and the making of steel tools and see how the dates have been getting pushed back about every couple decades or so. For all we know, new books a decade from now may detail the finding of a much earlier steel tech.

Of course I agree that we don't know all the facts, hence my saying repeatedly that, based on what we know today, steel smelting appears to be an anachronism. But I'm certainly open to new information.

5. It was not a fairly wide technology. You might be able to say that it the swords at the latter-end of Jaredite civilization were made of steel, but the Book of Mormon is silent as to composition by that time. Once again, no smelting in the modern sense of the word took place with iron, so far as is known, in the ancient world. We cannot expect to find the remnants of the equivalents of Bessemer furnaces in the archaeological remains.

How do we know it wasn't widely used technology? I agree that no smelting took place in those days. But I'm not seeing anything like what is described in the Book of Mormon either.

6. You quote from information on a Late Classic Maya site and expect it to debunk the idea of metalworking amongst the Jaredites? How so? From what I understand, there are words for metal in Mixe-Zoquean and the information I have seen to that effect places the date as far back as 1500 BCE. Why would words for metal exist in languages amongst people who never used metals or were not aware of them? That idea that there was no metallurgy amongst them just seems a ridiculous thing to say in light of the linguistic evidence for knowledge of metals in Mesoamerica. I couldn't care less what archaeology says when the words for things said not yet to exist are in the languages at periods predating the earliest archaeological remains of metallurgy.

First off, I'm not debunking "metalworking" among the Jaredites. Several posts in this thread discussed how early Mesoamericans worked natural outcroppings of metal and meteorite metal. Why wouldn't there be words for metal among the ancients? I'm not sure what your point is regarding the OP. Maybe you could clarify. I've consistently said there was metalworking, just not metallurgy or smelting, which seems to be what is described in the Book of Mormon.

7. The last mention of any metalworking in Ether is in 10:23, and nothing is said about swords or steel there. Did it become lost tech as it appeared to have done amongst the Nephites because it was impractical? Interesting thing about that passages is its description of diggin up heaps of earth to get the ore. We know that the Olmecs were indeed digging up heaps of earth to get to iron ores in very early times. They used the ores to make very highly polished concave mirrors. There may well have been other uses as well but they were likely decorative rather than utilitarian. Making steel the old fashioned way was a real pain in the rear and made it too expensive to use it on a wide scale like we do in modern times.

That's not what others have told me. The "steel" I'm told is a by-product of copper smelting, which is so easy that it can be done accidentally in a charcoal fire. Yes, your sources have people digging up ore (mostly for ochre), but not for smelting of metals.

Just some observations. We need to make sure we are asking the right questions of the data and are not making assumptions based upon a modern world view.

I agree, and I appreciate the civility of your posts.

[Chris Smith]

We know that the translator/redactor took editorial licenses liberally in the text (that is, the text of the Book of Ether is a text written by Moroni, not some translation literal or otherwise of an earlier text)

Is this a common argument? It has always been my understanding that the book of Ether was translated from a Jaredite text. Is there some textual clue that suggests otherwise?

[John Williams]

Is this a common argument? It has always been my understanding that the book of Ether was translated from a Jaredite text. Is there some textual clue that suggests otherwise?

It appears that Ether is giving us a portion of the Book of Ether in edited form:

1 And now I, Moroni, proceed to give an account of those ancient inhabitants who were destroyed by the hand of the Lord upon the face of this north country.

2 And I take mine account from the twenty and four plates which were found by the people of Limhi, which is called the Book of Ether.

3 And as I suppose that the first part of this record, which speaks concerning the creation of the world, and also of Adam, and an account from that time even to the great tower, and whatsoever things transpired among the children of men until that time, is had among the Jewsâ??

4 Therefore I do not write those things which transpired from the days of Adam until that time; but they are had upon the plates; and whoso findeth them, the same will have power that he may get the full account.

5 But behold, I give not the full account, but a part of the account I give, from the tower down until they were destroyed.

[Chris Smith]

It appears that Ether is giving us a portion of the Book of Ether in edited form:

That's what I thought. But Ben says, "the text of the Book of Ether is a text written by Moroni, not some translation literal or otherwise of an earlier text". Am I totally misreading him here? He does refer to "the translator/redactor," so maybe he didn't mean this the way I am reading it.

[Scott Lloyd]

It appears that [Moroni] is giving us a portion of the Book of Ether in edited form:

Did he merely edit? Or did he restate, recount, paraphrase? In other words, is the Book of Ether merely a condensed form of what was in Jeredite record, or does it constitute Moroni's retelling of the same?

[Zakuska]

Some other important questions:

Was the Jaredite record on 24 plates, a phonetic lettered account. Or was it in a pictures cartoon, Jack Chick style recounting of their narative?

[Bill Hamblin]

It should be noted that iron working was introduced to the New World at least six times, in addition to some indigenous development.

Inuit from Bering Straights

Vikings in Vinland (eleventh century, introduced and lost--a cautionary tale for critics)

Anglo-French in NE

Spanish in Mexico

Spanish in Peru

Portuguese in Brazil

(the latter four are contemporaneous, but should be viewed as separate introductions because the regions where iron working was introduced are culturally and geographically discontiguous.)

There are probably others.

So, how many Native American tribal peoples adapted their own indigenous iron working technologies from these introdcutions? As far as I am aware, none did. Indeed, IIRC, some tribes, like the Yanomami of Amazonia still do not have indigenous metal working technology some 500 years after the definitive introduction of metal working by the Europeans in the sixteenth century.

There is far more involved in developing and transmitting metal-working technology than mere existence of such technology. Some clarification of assumptions are in order.

By the way, technically speaking, the BOM never mentions "smelting."

[SolarPowered]

By the way, technically speaking, the BOM never mentions "smelting."

It does, however, say, "he did molten out of the hill." I don't know what that might mean, other than "smelting."

I note also that the brother of Jared "did molten out of a rock sixteen small stones," for whatever that's worth in interpreting the word "molten."

Edit: Also, regarding Nephi making tools with which to make a ship, it says, "And it came to pass that I did make tools of the ore which I did molten out of the rock." I note a couple interesting things here: First, it's not the "ore" that he "molten[ed]", it was the rock. "Molten[ing]" the rock resulted in "ore." I have no idea what to make of that. Second, Nephi describes what seems to be a bellows forge, which I understand won't get hot enough to melt iron. One can, however, use such a forge to refine ore into sponge iron, which can then be worked into tools.

That would appear to suggest that perhaps "molten" doesn't involve producing actual liquid metal.