Predestination And Titus

[paulhadik]

steubieU

you won't be able to get anyone to listen to what you are saying cause

anti-calvinists like telling me what i believe and they are positive I believe that God forces people to go to heaven or hell

[urroner]

lynn:

it is officially 30 minutes into christmas eve here in the pacific so thanks and a great holiday season to you

but

you didn't answer my question

I feel I did answer the question you would eventually ask, but yes, God does have influence in our lives. God does manipulate events to further His will, but He will not force somebody into Heaven and predestination, no matter how finely dressed, is God simply forcing somebody into Heaven or forcing somebody into Hell.

For the sake of discussion, can a sinless person be saved without grace?

[urroner]

steubieU

you won't be able to get anyone to listen to what you are saying cause

anti-calvinists like telling me what i believe and they are positive I believe that God forces people to go to heaven or hell

Maybe it's because I don't understand what you believe and I'm trying to state what I believe you believe so you can correct me.

Predestination, to me, means that in the long run the person has no say in where he will end up. He might have some say in how he gets there, but not where there is. Am I wrong here?

[paulhadik]

morning lynn

you still haven't fully answered my question. i am not asking if God influences events but does He rule over them, including our "free will" That is predestination: that God decides beforehand what will happen, not that God hopes beforehand what will happen. Let's start with the sale of Joseph which "you meant for evil but God meant for good" was Joseph free to decide his future and if God meant it for good were the brothers totally free in their actions...remember we are not talking about responsibility but freedom

and don't worry i don't mind your anti-calvinism, i'm not got to start a rival message board decrying the world's purposeful misrepresentation of my beliefs..it comes with the territory.

[urroner]

morning lynn

you still haven't fully answered my question. i am not asking if God influences events but does He rule over them, including our "free will" That is predestination: that God decides beforehand what will happen, not that God hopes beforehand what will happen. Let's start with the sale of Joseph which "you meant for evil but God meant for good" was Joseph free to decide his future and if God meant it for good were the brothers totally free in their actions...remember we are not talking about responsibility but freedom

and don't worry i don't mind your anti-calvinism, i'm not got to start a rival message board decrying the world's purposeful misrepresentation of my beliefs..it comes with the territory.

I don't believe that God always decides before hand what is going to happen, but He does know what is going to happen. He might occasionally intercede to get things moving in a certain direction, but He puts people in places at certain times, but these people will do what He needs done, not because He decides that they will do them, but because He knows that they will do those things on their own free will.

I believe a big obstacle in my accepting predestination is because I believe in a pre-mortal existence of mankind and that God didn't use ex nihilo to create the universe, but that is all for another thread if it hasn't already been discussed to death in a host of previous threads.

[Beowulf]

Thanks Urroner.

I sent the Titus reference to my missionary son (in Fukuoka Japan Mission) in an email today, with explanation of why it is significant...

(It is a tradition with me to send a scripture to my missionary sons (one has just got back a few months ago) every Sunday. Last week it was Revelations chapter 3, explaining that it gives NT evidence of the Temple Endowment.)

Beowulf

[paulhadik]

I don't believe that God always decides before hand what is going to happen, but He does know what is going to happen. He might occasionally intercede to get things moving in a certain direction, but He puts people in places at certain times, but these people will do what He needs done, not because He decides that they will do them, but because He knows that they will do those things on their own free will.

I believe a big obstacle in my accepting predestination is because I believe in a pre-mortal existence of mankind and that God didn't use ex nihilo to create the universe, but that is all for another thread if it hasn't already been discussed to death in a host of previous threads.

ok so i understand (and im interested whether this is LDS doctrine or not) God foreknows everything but He only "occassionally" rules over events, once in a while "interceding" (does He violate "free will" in doing this? like paul on the road to damascus or calling abraham etc..are these ignorable nudges? or what)

so then how can I have hope and faith in His future promises and how does God get all glory if the idea is only that He has peeked at the last few pages of the book but hasn't written the story?

[jadams_4242]

ok so i understand (and im interested whether this is LDS doctrine or not) God foreknows everything but He only "occassionally" rules over events, once in a while "interceding" (does He violate "free will" in doing this? like paul on the road to damascus or calling abraham etc..are these ignorable nudges? or what)

so then how can I have hope and faith in His future promises and how does God get all glory if the idea is only that He has peeked at the last few pages of the book but hasn't written the story?

Maybe a little remembering as to what happened in the garden of eden would help it all make sense? This was why we were put hear.

[SteubieU]

ok so i understand (and im interested whether this is LDS doctrine or not) God foreknows everything but He only "occassionally" rules over events, once in a while "interceding" (does He violate "free will" in doing this? like paul on the road to damascus or calling abraham etc..are these ignorable nudges? or what)

so then how can I have hope and faith in His future promises and how does God get all glory if the idea is only that He has peeked at the last few pages of the book but hasn't written the story?

This is a great point which has not been addressed. Can all glory go to God if He is not 100% responsible for all the good that happens in the world?

[urroner]

This is a great point which has not been addressed. Can all glory go to God if He is not 100% responsible for all the good that happens in the world?

If He is 100% responsible for all good, then we are only capable of doing evil unless God steps in, but since He made us only capable of doing evil without His intervention, then isn't He also responsible for all the evil also? If He made us only able to do evil without His intervention and if He chooses not to intervene, then is He not also responsible for the evil that we do since we can do nothing else?

[SteubieU]

If He is 100% responsible for all good, then we are only capable of doing evil unless God steps in, but since He made us only capable of doing evil without His intervention, then isn't He also responsible for all the evil also? If He made us only able to do evil without His intervention and if He chooses not to intervene, then is He not also responsible for the evil that we do since we can do nothing else?

So you admit, then, that according to LDS theology God does not deserve 100% of the glory and honor for the good that is in existence?

[Bernard Gui]

If He is 100% responsible for all good, then we are only capable of doing evil unless God steps in, but since He made us only capable of doing evil without His intervention, then isn't He also responsible for all the evil also? If He made us only able to do evil without His intervention and if He chooses not to intervene, then is He not also responsible for the evil that we do since we can do nothing else?

From my conversations with the Other Paul, the answer would be no, God is not responsible, man is, and it is an affront to God to complain about it. But I may have misunderstood.

Bernard

[urroner]

So you admit, then, that according to LDS theology God does not deserve 100% of the glory and honor for the good that is in existence?

Nah, never said anything about Him deserving or not deserving all glory, but just using your logic to ask if He does deserve it all the glory for the good, does He also deserve all the "glory" for all the bad?

[urroner]

From my conversations with the Other Paul, the answer would be no, God is not responsible, man is, and it is an affront to God to complain about it. But I may have misunderstood.

Bernard

So, who created man incapable of doing good without God's intervention and was it done ex nihilo?

As far as it being an affront to God, first He make me a certain way and when I complain about it and ask Him why, He get's insulted and then He punishes me for asking Him why. And this is a God of love?

[Bernard Gui]

So, who created man incapable of doing good without God's intervention and was it done ex nihilo?

As far as it being an affront to God, first He make me a certain way and when I complain about it and ask Him why, He get's insulted and then He punishes me for asking Him why. And this is a God of love?

No. God is sovereign, and he does as he wills. Can the pot complain to the

potter about how it was made?

Bernard

[paulhadik]

Lynn:

God has really punished you for asking why? Why is something i ask continually. He is under no obligation to answer,and often i don't understand His working, but I have never felt i insulted Him in doing so and am pretty sure i have never been punished for doing so.

or...was this merely hyperbole?

[paulhadik]

Lynn

for those of us who take Genesis literally we don't believe God created man with an inability to do right. Also the idea of " to God alone goes the glory" never dimishes man's responsibility for sin. Again we see this in the Joseph story. When he was sold in slavery this act was sinful, I am sure joseph was miserable and faced tremendous hardship, but at all times God was in control of the situation.

When we quote Romans 8:28 that all things work together for good to those who are called....it doesn't mean that everything has a happy ending all the time. It means that God's plan is furthered and we can find peace in that no matter what our personal situation

[Peg_In_FL]

Which religion believes what, this is where I'm confused. Do the Mormon's believe in Predestination or is it the EVan's that believe that?

[urroner]

Lynn

for those of us who take Genesis literally we don't believe God created man with an inability to do right. Also the idea of " to God alone goes the glory" never dimishes man's responsibility for sin. Again we see this in the Joseph story. When he was sold in slavery this act was sinful, I am sure joseph was miserable and faced tremendous hardship, but at all times God was in control of the situation.

Joseph was sold into slavery, but I'm sure that he complained about it and I'm sure that he talked to God about it quite often. But being in slavery for a long time, even a lifetime is very different from going to Hell for an eternity and suffering unimaginable pain and anguish for the eternities.

I hear people proclaim that God is a God of love, but then in the same breath I hear them tall everybody that disagrees with them are going to Hell. They say that I can't do squat to save myself, no amount of pleading, praying, good works, or desire will even begin to convince God to save me, it is totally up to Him, but because of ex nihilo, God made me this way. Only He can save me, but He put me in the situation that the only thing I can do is to walk the road to Hell.

Yes, I know that God is sovereign and He doesn't have to explain anything nor does He have to justify His decisions, but maybe God's definition of love is so vastly different from ours that sending most of the world's population, or so I have been told by most EVers, and ensuring them an eternity of knives in the eyes, burning of flesh, and acid in the blood are demonstrations of true love undiluted.

I'm sorry, but I can't imagine a God like that, but then again, I'm just a Mormon and have no imagination.

The Bible says that God wants to save all, but in the true spirit of Clintonianism, but I guess that depends upon the definition of "all."

In Ezekiel, it says that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, so I figure that God either has a short memory of the death of the wicked and then their eternal punishment, the old "out of sight, out of mind" routine or God will be be missing out on a lot of pleasure throughout the eternites with all those wicked souls damned and suffering in Hell. BTW, I have heard several EVers proudly state that God takes great pleasure in the pains and tortures of the damned, else why would He do it.

When we quote Romans 8:28 that all things work together for good to those who are called....it doesn't mean that everything has a happy ending all the time. It means that God's plan is furthered and we can find peace in that no matter what our personal situation

Tell that to the souls God abandons in Hell, the ones He could have saved but He deliberately choose not to save, the ones that had no choice but to go to Hell, that are suffering for an eternities. No peace there. True they sinned and they deserved to go there, but God made it so they couldn't avoid sin and then He blames in on them and then He punishes them for sinning. I have even heard tale that new born babies who die at birth go to Hell because of their sin and it's their fault. And people call Him a God of love.

So Paul, excuse my little rant, what is God's plan and how is it furthered by creating beings that can't do anything to save themselves, who cannot avoid sin, and then punishing them with violence beyond imagination?

Which religion believes what, this is where I'm confused. Do the Mormon's believe in Predestination or is it the EVan's that believe that?

Mormons don't believe in predestination, it is anathema to the gospel and the love of God. Some EVers believe in it, though not all and I don't know what the ratio is between them.

[SteubieU]

All Catholics believe in predestination... or at least they are supposed to according to Catholic teaching. However, what exactly that means is disagreed upon.

Some Catholics, like myself believe that God saves people based upon nothing but His sovereign and free choice to save them. These respond to God's grace because He has first chosen them.

Other Catholics believe that God predestines people to Heaven based upon seeing how they will respond to His grace.

Either way, we do believe that God predestines people to Heaven.

[captain-jack]

All Catholics believe in predestination... or at least they are supposed to according to Catholic teaching. However, what exactly that means is disagreed upon.

Some Catholics, like myself believe that God saves people based upon nothing but His sovereign and free choice to save them. These respond to God's grace because He has first chosen them.

Other Catholics believe that God predestines people to Heaven based upon seeing how they will respond to His grace.

Either way, we do believe that God predestines people to Heaven.

So God predestined me to be a Mormon and go to hell? Why did I get shafted, what did I do? But if works mean nothing, then what reasoning is there for condemning me on a whim? That sounds like God isn't fair or just, if that is the case.

[SteubieU]

So God predestined me to be a Mormon and go to hell? Why did I get shafted, what did I do? But if works mean nothing, then what reasoning is there for condemning me on a whim? That sounds like God isn't fair or just, if that is the case.

First of all, Captain Jack, I never said that you are going to Hell. I can't make that determination... I don't judge myself or my own salvation, let alone anyone else's. And again, if you do go to hell, it will because you freely chose to sin. You will deserve it. If you go to Heaven, it will be because of God's free and unmerited to gift. In all ways, God will be glorified... through His justice or His mercy!

[captain-jack]

First of all, Captain Jack, I never said that you are going to Hell. I can't make that determination... I don't judge myself or my own salvation, let alone anyone else's. And again, if you do go to hell, it will because you freely chose to sin. You will deserve it. If you go to Heaven, it will be because of God's free and unmerited to gift. In all ways, God will be glorified... through His justice or His mercy!

I can't freely choose anything if I'm predestined to it, I am bound to that choice.

[Zakuska]

Lynn

for those of us who take Genesis literally we don't believe God created man with an inability to do right. Also the idea of " to God alone goes the glory" never dimishes man's responsibility for sin. Again we see this in the Joseph story. When he was sold in slavery this act was sinful, I am sure joseph was miserable and faced tremendous hardship, but at all times God was in control of the situation.

When we quote Romans 8:28 that all things work together for good to those who are called....it doesn't mean that everything has a happy ending all the time. It means that God's plan is furthered and we can find peace in that no matter what our personal situation

AH... but lets throw King David into the mix. "Blessed is the man for whom God will not input sin".

Rom. 4: 8

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Rom. 5: 13

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

2 Sam 12

13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

Why was David so lucky? For God to blind his eyes to his sin?

Which religion believes what, this is where I'm confused. Do the Mormon's believe in Predestination or is it the EVan's that believe that?

Calvanistsic leaning Evans beleive it.

Mormons beleive in "forordination" similar but slightly different.

[paulhadik]

lynn:

sorry wasn't aware that LDS have no imagination...i suppose that proves that Joseph Smith must really have seen God HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

ok just kidding

you and i have danced this several million times now and i don't see that i am getting through. But you are looking nice tonight in your goat-costume so what's one more tango?

Man chooses willfully to sin and rebel against God, you demand equal mercy from God toward all but why should that be? God can not be blamed for man's sin. Your argument of "but He ain't doing nuttin about it" does not erase man's guilt before a holy judge

forgive me for using the story of noah, but i believe the account to be true. Let's assume a population of 1 million souls at the time. God predicted the flood 120 years before it happened (pre-destination or just luck) for those 120 years and scores of years earlier under Enoch, the word was preached and ignored. 8 were saved out of that million. The majority of those drowned heard the preaching and rejected it. Do you blame God for their rejection of His 120 years of mercy? Then you have Him unjustly murdering those people. The issue is not "God should have saved them" the issue is "are they guilty in their sin before God and is death the righteous penalty"

again, sorry it ain't a comfortable teaching, but no religion, including your own, is devoid of difficult and thorny truths