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Predestination And Titus


urroner

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Titus 2:11-14

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

11For the grace of God has (A)appeared, (cool.gifbringing salvation to all men,

12instructing us to deny ungodliness and ©worldly desires and (D)to live sensibly, righteously and godly (E)in the present age,

13looking for the blessed hope and the (F)appearing of the glory of (G)our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

14who (H)gave Himself for us (I)to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to (J)purify for Himself a (K)people for His own possession, (L)zealous for good deeds.

The Message (MSG)

11-14God's readiness to give and forgive is now public. Salvation's available for everyone! We're being shown how to turn our backs on a godless, indulgent life, and how to take on a God-filled, God-honoring life. This new life is starting right now, and is whetting our appetites for the glorious day when our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, appears. He offered himself as a sacrifice to free us from a dark, rebellious life into this good, pure life, making us a people he can be proud of, energetic in goodness.

Amplified Bible (AMP)

11For the grace of God (His unmerited favor and blessing) has come forward (appeared) for the deliverance from sin and the eternal salvation for all mankind.

12It has trained us to reject and renounce all ungodliness (irreligion) and worldly (passionate) desires, to live discreet (temperate, self-controlled), upright, devout (spiritually whole) lives in this present world,

13Awaiting and looking for the [fulfillment, the realization of our] blessed hope, even the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One),

14Who gave Himself on our behalf that He might redeem us (purchase our freedom) from all iniquity and purify for Himself a people [to be peculiarly His own, people who are] eager and enthusiastic about [living a life that is good and filled with] beneficial deeds.(A)

New King James Version (NKJV)

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

The New Jerusalem Bible

You see, God's grace has been revealed to save the whole human race; it has taught us that we should give up everything contrary to true religion and all our worldly passions; we must be self-restrained and live upright and religious lives in this present world, waiting in hope for the blessing which will come with the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Christ Jesus. He offered himself for us in order to ransom us from all our faults and to purify a people to be his very own and eager to do good.

Well, what I see from these Bibles, verse 11 is basically saying that God wants to save the whole human race, like it explicitly says in the New Jerusalem Bible. So, if God wants to save the whole human race and He has the power to do it and only He can do it, and there is nothing we can do to stop Him if He decided to save us, then why, according to those who believe in predestination, are there so many people who aren't saved?

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Titus 2:11-14

Well, what I see from these Bibles, verse 11 is basically saying that God wants to save the whole human race, like it explicitly says in the New Jerusalem Bible. So, if God wants to save the whole human race and He has the power to do it and only He can do it, and there is nothing we can do to stop Him if He decided to save us, then why, according to those who believe in predestination, are there so many people who aren't saved?

I dunno, ask a Calvinist.

All good questions. Its hard for me to see any reasoning when you put it this way it just seems clear.

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Titus 2:11-14

Well, what I see from these Bibles, verse 11 is basically saying that God wants to save the whole human race, like it explicitly says in the New Jerusalem Bible. So, if God wants to save the whole human race and He has the power to do it and only He can do it, and there is nothing we can do to stop Him if He decided to save us, then why, according to those who believe in predestination, are there so many people who aren't saved?

God does will the salvation of all men, and He does give everyone sufficient grace so that they may go to Heaven. When people go to hell it is because of their own sin.

And yet... I still believe in predestination.

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God does will the salvation of all men, and He does give everyone sufficient grace so that they may go to Heaven. When people go to hell it is because of their own sin.

And yet... I still believe in predestination.

This is where I get hung up on it.

If God wills the salvation of all men, and what has been done is sufficient to save all. That He has willed all to be saved, no other way around it. If you go to hell because of your own sin, you have made a choice. But if your choice effects it, then predestination cannot occur. But if someone is predestined to go to hell, then the grace was not for everyone and those who are condemned are condemned unfairly because they had no choice in the matter, that is unjust.

Predestination just does not work for me.

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But if someone is predestined to go to hell, then the grace was not for everyone and those who are condemned are condemned unfairly because they had no choice in the matter, that is unjust.

Predestination just does not work for me.

Whoever said that I believe that God predestines people to go to Hell. God does not will evil in any way; in no way can it be attributed to Him.

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This is where I get hung up on it.

If God wills the salvation of all men, and what has been done is sufficient to save all. That He has willed all to be saved, no other way around it. If you go to hell because of your own sin, you have made a choice. But if your choice effects it, then predestination cannot occur. But if someone is predestined to go to hell, then the grace was not for everyone and those who are condemned are condemned unfairly because they had no choice in the matter, that is unjust.

Predestination just does not work for me.

Im not real big on the whole predestined concept....

But what do we do with verses like this?

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

They are in there and we've gotta deal with them on some level, don't we?

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Predestination does not exist from the point of view from God. For God knows that past, the present and the future of all. But from our point of view it can appear to exist. But does not.

We are all called to be saved within the bounds of our Free agency. If we refuse to repent then we cannot be forgiven in this world. And in the next world if we still refuse to repent then we cannot be saved.

There is only one Sin that cannot be forgiven in this world nor in the world to come...and this is a sin against the Holy Ghost...when we do this...we are unable to be renewed unto repentance.

All others shall be saved into one of the many mansions which Jesus said existed added by Paul in one of the three degrees of Glories that Paul spoke of.

So in effect God can say so and so is going to hell because God knows all the thoughts, acts of that person until the end of that person's journey. God is love and just...so none shall be given anything that He has not deserved. For it is written we shall be judged on our works.

Peace be unto you

bert10

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Im not real big on the whole predestined concept....

But what do we do with verses like this?

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

They are in there and we've gotta deal with them on some level, don't we?

That calls into question about how He chooses who is molded into good and who is molded into evil. It still stands to my point, either everything is God's fault, or we do have some control over what we do and where we go.

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That calls into question about how He chooses who is molded into good and who is molded into evil. It still stands to my point, either everything is God's fault, or we do have some control over what we do and where we go.

Of course we exercise our free will. Free will is really free!

How does He choose who goes to Heaven and how much we cooperate with good? That is according to the decision of His will.

Predestination does not exist from the point of view from God. For God knows that past, the present and the future of all. But from our point of view it can appear to exist. But does not.

We are all called to be saved within the bounds of our Free agency. If we refuse to repent then we cannot be forgiven in this world. And in the next world if we still refuse to repent then we cannot be saved.

There is only one Sin that cannot be forgiven in this world nor in the world to come...and this is a sin against the Holy Ghost...when we do this...we are unable to be renewed unto repentance.

All others shall be saved into one of the many mansions which Jesus said existed added by Paul in one of the three degrees of Glories that Paul spoke of.

So in effect God can say so and so is going to hell because God knows all the thoughts, acts of that person until the end of that person's journey. God is love and just...so none shall be given anything that He has not deserved. For it is written we shall be judged on our works.

Peace be unto you

bert10

I assert that one thing or person would not be better than another unless God loved it more. Some would not cooperate more with God's grace unless God loved them more so that they are chosen to cooperate more.

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I am sorry but I don't quite understand what you mean.

Of course we exercise our free will. Free will is really free!

We have free will, but...

How does He choose who goes to Heaven and how much we cooperate with good? That is according to the decision of His will.

...our free will is dictated by God's will? It doesn't make sense to me. It sounds like you are saying that God says, "Here's your free will. It's yours and you can do what you want with it, but only if I tell you it's what you want."

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I am sorry but I don't quite understand what you mean.

We have free will, but...

...our free will is dictated by God's will? It doesn't make sense to me. It sounds like you are saying that God says, "Here's your free will. It's yours and you can do what you want with it, but only if I tell you it's what you want."

Our free will really is free. I can choose to do a thing or not to do it. But if ever I choose to do something good, God is the first cause of that good action, and my will is the secondary cause and based on Him.

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Our free will really is free. I can choose to do a thing or not to do it. But if ever I choose to do something good, God is the first cause of that good action, and my will is the secondary cause and based on Him.

I can agree that anything good comes from God, even our actions, but if you have free will, then at any moment you can decide to do something else. That negates the idea of predestination, every action you make changes the outcome. The innumerable actions we can take every day means that our destination is always changing. God may know the greatest possible outcome, but because we have a choice it is not a surety.

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That calls into question about how He chooses who is molded into good and who is molded into evil. It still stands to my point, either everything is God's fault, or we do have some control over what we do and where we go.

I dunno, the verse seems to be implying that he is doing the molding, not just picking out who is good or evil. Its a hard verse for me. I've got sort of a hybrid view of free-will and predestination all mixed up together. But the Bible seems to have both concepts in it. I think maybe there are elements of both that come into play.

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I dunno, the verse seems to be implying that he is doing the molding, not just picking out who is good or evil. Its a hard verse for me. I've got sort of a hybrid view of free-will and predestination all mixed up together. But the Bible seems to have both concepts in it. I think maybe there are elements of both that come into play.

Agreed. But logically one cannot be in play at the same time as the other. Either we have the power to choose or we don't.

He can be molding us, but I don't know if you've ever worked with clay, it doesn't always come out the way we want.

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Agreed. But logically one cannot be in play at the same time as the other. Either we have the power to choose or we don't.

He can be molding us, but I don't know if you've ever worked with clay, it doesn't always come out the way we want.

Unless you've got the perfect Molder... the omnipotent Father whose will can't be thwarted.

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Unless you've got the perfect Molder... the omnipotent Father whose will can't be thwarted.

So then we don't have free will? Either we do or we don't.

It's like the Flood and Noah. Could He not have just willed everyone to be good, or did He find someone who was willing to do His will and worked through them? So many opposing His will that He just flooded them all out except those who chose His will. It was their choice. Why didn't God just will them all to do good?

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God does will the salvation of all men, and He does give everyone sufficient grace so that they may go to Heaven. When people go to hell it is because of their own sin.

And yet... I still believe in predestination.

So what you just said is salvation requires works. :P

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Agreed. But logically one cannot be in play at the same time as the other. Either we have the power to choose or we don't.

Agreed. Both can't be in play at the same time. Arguments could be made that Jonah had a choice, or Paul on the road to Damascus....but I would say circumstances were distinctly difficult to choose much else.

The reason I don't buy into the whole concept of it, is because it implicates God as willfully and intentionaly creating souls to damn as well as souls to exalt and that doesn't sound right.

However, I think Satan spends a good deal of time trying to figure out how to thwart Gods plan and his plan is unthwartable. I think Satan can not thwart it and neither can we.

I don't believe in predestined election. I believe at the very least we are guaranteed a choice to pick which team we are going to play on.

But I do believe there are times when we do what God needs us to do wether we want to or not. I guess choice is implied, but once we give ourselves to the Lord's service, we really are putting ourselves in his hands and direction.

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In one sense, yes. In another, and more perfect sense, salvation is by God's grace alone, and not by works; it is the gift of God, not because of works lest any man should boast.

I would beleive That he has given us all we could possibly need to earn our own, And a big part of that is free agency To do all that has been cammanded, If we do not, I know that the second death will definately have its place during the judgement.

:P

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I would beleive That he has given us all we could possibly need to earn our own, And a big part of that is free agency To do all that has been cammanded, If we do not, I know that the second death will definately have its place during the judgement.

:P

Predestination is simply the teaching that God (who stands apart from our concept of time) brings things about through His working according to His will and His pre-determination. Is it the belief of the LDS church that

a) man always has complete and free will to do what he wants?

cool.gif at no time does God supercede man's will or control the actions of His creation?

paul

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Predestination is simply the teaching that God (who stands apart from our concept of time) brings things about through His working according to His will and His pre-determination. Is it the belief of the LDS church that

a) man always has complete and free will to do what he wants?

cool.gif at no time does God supercede man's will or control the actions of His creation?

paul

We believe that God doesn't force people into Heaven.

BTW, Merry Christmas Paul and may your day in paradise be paradise.

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Here is the major issue... NO ONE says that God "forces anyone" to go to Heaven or hell... He draws them and moves them so that they WANT to go to Heaven.

So, in other words, God is really forcing them into Heaven, but He does it in such a way that they think they have some say in it being done.

If God decides that a particular person is going to Heaven, can that person resist God's will enough to not go to Heaven and if God decides that a person isn't going to Heaven, then, in a sense, God forces that person into Hell since that person was able to do nothing about getting into Heaven.

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