Angel Moroni - Declaration Of Independence

[katherine the great]

The "Speech of the Unknown" was written by George Lippard in his 1847 book George Washington and His Generals: Or, Legends of the Revolution. It has been mistakenly attributed to John Hanson, who was not even present at the signing. Ronald Reagan quoted the speech in a 1957 commencement address at Eureka College. This permanently hobbled his political career, and he was never heard from again.

I found the story in an 1891 book (with no source cited.) The part about the guy disappearing was not there. It was either left out of this publication or was a later addition to the story.

[Alf O'Mega]

I found the story in an 1891 book (with no source cited.) The part about the guy disappearing was not there. It was either left out of this publication or was a later addition to the story.

Yes, the version quoted by Manly Hall has been reframed, although much of the language survives from Lippard in all its purple glory. In the original, he tries to give his invention an air of plausibility with this footnote:

* The name of the Orator, who made the last eloquent appeal before the Signing of the Declaration, is not definitely known. In this speech, it is my wish to compress some portion of the fiery eloquence of the time; to embody in abrupt sentences, the very spirit of the Fourth of July, 1776.

The eloquence, such as it is, is very much of his own time, a decade into the reign of Victoria, Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

[charity]

Would an angel "fall exhausted in his seat?"

[katherine the great]

So I do not believe in this Moroni story because 1) Columbus knew where he was going and 2) America is still "owned" by the British crown.

Alan

I don't believe it either, but not for your reasons. America is most definitely not owned by England, but you are our best friends. I think it's ironic that we sacrificed so much to be free of England, but for the past century or more, England has been, by far, our closest ally. Maybe it's another of the numerous manifestations of turning the hearts of the children to their fathers.

[ERMD]

If anyone believes such a thing, it would make Moroni a type of Celestial Forrest Gump, just happening to show up at key points in history.

[ERMD]

I don't buy any of this, I think it is complete nonsense.

Being English I see the war a little differently to you guys. The whole thing was a smokescreen. All that really happend is that the Virginia Company changed it's name to the United States of America and carried on trading. The main stockholder of the Virginia Company? - was and still is to this day the British Crown.

Question: why does the US flag used in American courts of law have gold braiding? Answer, because the proceedings of the court and the ultimate jurisdiction of the court, is the British Admiralty.

As for Columbus, he knew exactly where he was going. The existence of the new world was well known. Roslyn Chapel in Scotland is adorned with carvings of maize (corn) which date many years before Columbus.

So I do not believe in this Moroni story because 1) Columbus knew where he was going and 2) America is still "owned" by the British crown.

Alan

Talk about complete nonsense.

CFR on your claim about the border on the U.S. flag.

Fringes on American flags are there for decoration. That is their only purpose and they have no symbolic meaning. As the Army Institute of Heraldry states on their web site: "Gold fringe is used on the National flag as an honorable enrichment only. It is not regarded as an integral part of the flag and its use does not constitute an unauthorized addition to the design prescribed by statutes." This statement is based on an opinion issued by the Attorney General in 1925, which contained very similar language.

[grego]

Would an angel "fall exhausted in his seat?"

Sure, but not because he was tired.

-=-=-=

Alan does have a point, though he's taken a very lengthy and complicated argument into one short paragraph.

[CQUIRK]

I don't buy any of this, I think it is complete nonsense.

=Your explanation is complete nonsense.

Being English I see the war a little differently to you guys. The whole thing was a smokescreen. All that really happend is that the Virginia Company changed it's name to the United States of America and carried on trading. The main stockholder of the Virginia Company? - was and still is to this day the British Crown.

=The Virginia Company didn't run America.

Question: why does the US flag used in American courts of law have gold braiding? Answer, because the proceedings of the court and the ultimate jurisdiction of the court, is the British Admiralty.

=Another load of.... That was only for decoration and guess what? A LOT of other nations have gold trimming around their flags, and those nations never were owned by Britain.

As for Columbus, he knew exactly where he was going. The existence of the new world was well known. Roslyn Chapel in Scotland is adorned with carvings of maize (corn) which date many years before Columbus.

=It wasn't maize.

So I do not believe in this Moroni story because 1) Columbus knew where he was going and 2) America is still "owned" by the British crown.

=Maybe through the CFR or other pro-British establishment groups, but when our nation was first created, if was a free nation. Go save your hogwash for the next BNP convention!

[charity's child]

I thought Alan was just joking! Guess I thought people were more reasonable than to actually believe that.

[CQUIRK]

FYI, I am a Constitutionalist.

.....And an Irish American

[grego]

Guess I thought people were more reasonable than to actually believe that.

Reasonable?? Or more informed, perhaps?

For some info on the view that Britain owns America:

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/bcolony.htm

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/queen.htm

Or, maybe, someone else:

http://web.archive.org/web/20021208070527/...et/usfraud.html

About the flag:

President, Dwight David Eisenhower, by Executive Order No.10834, signed on August 21, 1959 and printed in the Federal Register at 24 F.R. 6865, pursuant to law, stated that: "A military flag is a flag that resembles the regular flag of the United States, except that it has a yellow fringe border on three sides."

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/flag.htm

www.no-debts.com/anti-federalist/files/fringe.txt

These matters are much deeper and difficult than one assumes. Secret combination...?

[Facsimile 3]

Reasonable?? Or more informed, perhaps?

For some info on the view that Britain owns America:

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/bcolony.htm

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/queen.htm

Or, maybe, someone else:

http://web.archive.org/web/20021208070527/...et/usfraud.html

About the flag:

President, Dwight David Eisenhower, by Executive Order No.10834, signed on August 21, 1959 and printed in the Federal Register at 24 F.R. 6865, pursuant to law, stated that: "A military flag is a flag that resembles the regular flag of the United States, except that it has a yellow fringe border on three sides."

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/flag.htm

www.no-debts.com/anti-federalist/files/fringe.txt

These matters are much deeper and difficult than one assumes. Secret combination...?

This is silly. America is not subject to the Crown. We are wedded together through international banking. That is the only strangle hold that Britain has on us and that we have on Britain. So be as it may, it is not a government controlling a country but more our banks. Hardly a colony in either case.

[Anijen]

Personally I think our founding fathers were inspired men and the Prophets have declared they were I don't know if Moroni was there or not, it doesn't matter much anyway.

Washington was an awesome General and a good man. Out of all the founding fathers only he and Columbus were ordained to the office of High Priests.

Washington lost more of his own men through the weather, sickness and desertion than in combat.

It is a testimony to me to look at the hand of God in this country/s (the Americas)

1 Adam and Eve and Eden here.

2 Brother of Jared comes here.

3 Lehi and his family are led here.

4 Mulek is led here.

5 Columbus is led here

6 The story of Squanto (spelling?) is inspiring.

7 The Pilgrims come here.

8 The founding Fathers, I mean wow...

9 Adam Ondi Ahmen is here

it would make Moroni a type of Celestial Forrest Gump,

Brilliant

[freakin a man]

If anyone believes such a thing, it would make Moroni a type of Celestial Forrest Gump, just happening to show up at key points in history.

Possibly. It could be that Moroni has been given a special assignment to watch over the country. Perhaps he is Americas guardian angel.

[grego]

This is silly. America is not subject to the Crown. We are wedded together through international banking. That is the only strangle hold that Britain has on us and that we have on Britain. So be as it may, it is not a government controlling a country but more our banks. Hardly a colony in either case.

Let me guess--you didn't read much.

[Alan]

I never said America was owned by England.

I said America was owned by the Crown. The Crown owns England, it owns Scotland, it owns my house (a shocking fact to most Englishmen who, like me, spend years paying their mortgage), it owns much of the "free world", and it still owns the Virginia Company/America.

You guys are not owned by us, you are owned by the same people who own us. You may not believe it but it is true and there are people out there, mostly Americans, who know the truth and have written very authorititive works on the subject.

I challenge you to research this and see if I'm not right. Start with the Federal Reserve.

Alan

[Alan]

Just to clarify further, by "crown" I am not referring to the British monarch. The monarch is also a subject of/owned by the crown.

The Declaration of Independence was a clever slight of hand and most people have fallen for it.

The revolution described in the Book of Mormon (against the "mother gentiles") cannot refer to the events culminating in 1776. This is because if, as is asserted, the BoM story was played out in central or south America, US independence did not extend to those countries. Alternatively, if the throwing off of mother gentiles and their kings referred to an hemispheric event, this too cannot yet have occured given that Canada has retained a foreign monarch as head of state.

I believe the revolution described in the Book of Mormon could well be referring to a yet future event, connected with the establishment of Zion.

Alan

[grego]

Alan,

Interesting comment on the BoM prophecy. When I asked, a long while back, how believing in the LGT affected the "USA prophecy" in the BoM, only one person answered, and the answer was "it didn't"... Huh? I figured just drop it, since it seemed no one really caught the point. Thanks!

-=-=-=

We are wedded together through international banking.

Yes, very much so. They are the ruling despotic husband, and I can't really say what we are...

-=-=-=

That is the only strangle hold that Britain has on us and that we have on Britain.

The stranglehold we have on Britain is when it costs more for the "husband" to support the "wife", than the "wife" can help the "husband" make/ bring in. IOW, when the "wife" becomes a liability, not an asset.

-=-=-=

So be as it may, it is not a government controlling a country but more our banks.

Well, they control the banks, the banks control the country.

[Cold Steel]

You shouldn't be too quick to dismiss stories like this. I did when I first heard it, but on the way home tonight I picked up a hichhiker and he said it was true. I looked back at him and no one was in the back seat! Oh, yeah, and he said to get our food supplies ready. (He looked a lot like Orrin Hatch.)

[CQUIRK]

"I said America was owned by the Crown."

=American was a FREE nation then. And economics and national sovereignty is not the same thing.

"You guys are not owned by us, you are owned by the same people who own us. You may not believe it but it is true and there are people out there, mostly Americans, who know the truth and have written very authorititive works on the subject.

I challenge you to research this and see if I'm not right. Start with the Federal Reserve."

=I might agree with you that these days the British Crown might wield a LOT of influence in the American Establishment, including the Fed. Reserve, but back then we were, a FREE nation!

And the Reserve wasn't created untill the early 20th century.

[katherine the great]

The revolution described in the Book of Mormon (against the "mother gentiles") cannot refer to the events culminating in 1776. This is because if, as is asserted, the BoM story was played out in central or south America,.

I haven't studied this portion of the Book of Mormon in detail, but England was only one of the "Mother Gentiles." Don't forget about all the nations southward that fought against "Mother Spain." Maybe the "Mother Gentiles" referred more to Europe in general than just England.

You shouldn't be too quick to dismiss stories like this. I did when I first heard it, but on the way home tonight I picked up a hichhiker and he said it was true. I looked back at him and no one was in the back seat! Oh, yeah, and he said to get our food supplies ready. (He looked a lot like Orrin Hatch.)

Didn't your parents teach you to NOT pick up hitchhikers?

[Legalbryan]

Reasonable?? Or more informed, perhaps?

For some info on the view that Britain owns America:

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/bcolony.htm

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/queen.htm

Or, maybe, someone else:

http://web.archive.org/web/20021208070527/...et/usfraud.html

About the flag:

President, Dwight David Eisenhower, by Executive Order No.10834, signed on August 21, 1959 and printed in the Federal Register at 24 F.R. 6865, pursuant to law, stated that: "A military flag is a flag that resembles the regular flag of the United States, except that it has a yellow fringe border on three sides."

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/flag.htm

www.no-debts.com/anti-federalist/files/fringe.txt

These matters are much deeper and difficult than one assumes. Secret combination...?

Well, I just read through most of this tripe and I think I smell Birchers in the air. The first two references are barely readable. Its not that they were just poorly written, but the arguments were hardly comprehensible. The central thesis behind all of these links is that there is some central group of people who are running the world (think Robert Ludlam bad guys and you get the picture). While these types of conspiracies are hardly new or original, I think Ocam's razor is applicable. As someone who is a lawyer and the son of a Constitutional law professor I am quite confident that our laws are not controlled by a central governing conspiracy, certainly John Roberts is not taking orders from a bunch of European bankers. Heck, I can write a law and have it put in the books with a few signatures and a majority of the vote in just about every state.

I won't ague that the IMF and the World Bank don't execute a large degree of power, but to argue that we have to throw away all of our laws and go back to some Lockean state of natural laws is insane and frankly dangerous. If you are a Bircher or a FREEPer, or whatever, I would strongly advise that you wake up and look around you. The world has suddenly become very very tiny in the space of about 10 years. If you insist in living in the past, the rest of the world will pass you by. Before you know it we will be driving Chinese and Indian cars and most of the worlds innovations will also come out of those countries. The answer is not in closing our country and burying our heads in the sand, but instead it is to embrace the changes, realize that nationalism and patriotism is soon going to be an anachronism and start encouraging our children to get degrees in math and science or America will be Mexico in 30 years.

[Helmuth]

You think you would have done a better job?

Yes, obviously.

Seems to me that Washington came out ok.

No, Washington lost a lot, and the real Revolutionaries won a lot. Green Mountain Boys, Swamp Fox, all the great guerrilla fighters -- these were the true heroes and victors of the Revolution. Washington was largely a rent-seeker, he became general for the money, he was not a true revolutionary.

Washington was an awesome General and a good man.

Washington was a lousy general, signer of the Alien and Sedition Act, and suppressor of the Whiskey Rebellion. He was a tyrant. I do not admire him. I know more about him than most who do admire him. If you knew more about him, you likely would not admire him either.

[structurecop]

No, Washington lost a lot, and the real Revolutionaries won a lot.

Most responsible historians regard Washington as a very poor military leader. His legacy is mostly indebted to mythology (as most great historical and scriptural figures are).

[Anijen]

Yes, obviously.

No, Washington lost a lot, and the real Revolutionaries won a lot. Green Mountain Boys, Swamp Fox, all the great guerrilla fighters -- these were the true heroes and victors of the Revolution. Washington was largely a rent-seeker, he became general for the money, he was not a true revolutionary.

Washington was a lousy general, signer of the Alien and Sedition Act, and suppressor of the Whiskey Rebellion. He was a tyrant. I do not admire him. I know more about him than most who do admire him. If you knew more about him, you likely would not admire him either.

I agree that there were a lot of true hero's and played important roles in the revolution. But I disagree when you say

"he became general for the money, he was not a true revolutionary. Washington was a lousy general, He was a tyrant."

That is just your opinion and many of the founding fathers would disagree with you.

You also say;

If you knew more about him, you likely would not admire him either.

From reading (copies) of the Washington papers at the University of Virgina I know a little about him. His life his career his military years through his two terms as President. The difficulties he confronted as he worked to keep the emerging country united. His managing his own debts to British merchants that he experienced first hand the imperiousness of the British Empire. I can see the evolution of his attitude toward slavery, which led to the emancipating his own slaves in his will. When Washington died he was eulogized as "first in the hearts of his countrymen." Our republics founders there were many outstanding individuals, and yet each of them Franklin, Hamilton, Adams, Jefferson and Madison acknowledged Washington to be his superior.

He is in our countryside our money but he needs to be in our hearts IMO