Nephi And Moses' Parting Of The Waters

[jadams_4242]

Hiw about King Canute's "narrative"???

Bad Sea! Go back home, this very minute!

You're a bad, bad sea!

UD

Thats what i,m talking bout!

[William Schryver]

I don't feel like I'm in a position to confidently state that this, that, or the other from the scriptures actually did occur just as it is recorded. I don't think anyone is. That said, I have a strong conviction that when the "books are opened" and the great DVD in the heavens plays back the record of what did actually happen, that we are going to discover that a lot of things that seemed improbable, implausible, or just plain impossible, did actually occur exactly as the scriptures say they did.

I believe in a God of miracles. Whether or not the Red Sea parted like Cecil B. DeMille shows it in The Ten Commandments or the withered hand of the man in Mark 3 really was healed in the eyes of the onlookers, or the prison walls fell and Alma and Amulek walked out as reported in the Book of Mormon, or Enoch really spoke and rivers were turned out of their courses -- I believe God has the power to do any or all of those things. And if those kinds of things don't happen in our day, it's our own damn fault -- not His. He hasn't lost the power. We've just lost the faith.

[Connolly]

Ooooo--Ron Wyatt! That guy has managed to discover almost every Biblical artifact ever sought!

Please! Send some missionaries to this guys house and give him a BoM. We need him searching over here in the western hemisphere.

[grego]

Connolly,

Loved it!!

-=-=-=

Red Sea discovery of Exodus, talk of Mt. Sinai, etc. (not just the Wyatts):

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=33168

What's happened since then, I don't know.

[structurecop]

Please! Send some missionaries to this guys house and give him a BoM. We need him searching over here in the western hemisphere.

Unfortunately, Mr. Wyatt has passed on. Presumably, he now knows exactly whether or not his claims were correct.

[solomarineris]

Egyptians inserted in the middle.

Just for the record, I don't believe in the historicity of the Exodus account.

Do you believe "first vison", destruction of "sodom&Gomorah", fish swallowing Jonah, etc.?

[consiglieri]

The OP makes an interesting observation about the difference between the Book of Mormon account vis-a-vis the story in Exodus.

I agree that when Moses parted the Red Sea, it indicated at least in part the power God had given him over the waters, which would likely be part of the power exercised by God in the creation over the primal waters of chaos, which he "spoke" to in Genesis 1 and they obeyed.

The story in the Book of Mormon about Moses dividing the waters by speaking to them would tend to make that connection more explicit than the Exodus account.

As for now, that is about all I have to say. I did some preliminary checking and was unable to find an extra-biblical source that says that Moses divided the Red Sea by speaking to it.

I think it would be interesting if there existed such an account, and there may well exist such an account, but apologetically speaking, I would foresee that even should such an account be located, we would then go back into the same old rut of whether Joseph Smith had access to this account, and if he didn't, he just happened to guess it right. That gets so tiresome after a while.

Great insight, though!

--Consiglieri

[grego]

I guess there might be another source.

It's hard for me to imagine something happening by the priesthood, without speaking.

[Strindberg]

I think it would be interesting if there existed such an account, and there may well exist such an account, but apologetically speaking, I would foresee that even should such an account be located, we would then go back into the same old rut of whether Joseph Smith had access to this account, and if he didn't, he just happened to guess it right. That gets so tiresome after a while.

--Consiglieri

[structurecop]

Do you believe "first vison", destruction of "sodom&Gomorah", fish swallowing Jonah, etc.?

The first two, yes but probably not how most do. I highly doubt a fish swallowing Jonah.

[consiglieri]

The first two, yes but probably not how most do. I highly doubt a fish swallowing Jonah.

Quint: Cage goes in the water, you go in the water. Shark's in the water. Our shark.

[sings]

Quint: Farewell and adieu to you, fair Spanish ladies. Farewell and adieu, you ladies of Spain. For we've received orders for to sail back to Boston. And so nevermore shall we see you again.

[consiglieri]

After some more preliminary checking, I return with these results:

1. Josephus Antiquities--recounts the parting of the Red Sea, but although he gives Moses a nice long speech to God prior to the parting, when the parting is done, it is by the smiting of the rod.

2. Septuagint--Does not have Moses speaking to the sea, but variation is found in that Moses spreads his hand out over the sea.

3. Genesis Apocryphon--doesn't get to Moses at all.

Where to go from here?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Nevo]

There is a bizarre story in Ginzburg's The Legends of the Jews, where Moses not only speaks to the sea but they actually argue back and forth. Maybe someone can track down the original source(s).

God spake to Moses, saying, "Why dost thou stand here praying? My children's prayer has anticipated thine. For thee there is naught to do but lift up thy rod and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it." Moses replied: "Thou commandest me to divide the sea, and lay bare the dry ground in the midst of it, and yet Thou didst Thyself make it a perpetual decree, that the sand shall be placed for the bound of the sea." And again God spake to Moses: "Thou has not read the beginning of the Torah. I, yea, I, did speak, 'Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear,' and at that time I made the condition that the waters shall divide before Israel. [29] Take the rod that I gave unto thee, and go to the sea upon Mine errand, and speak thus: 'I am the messenger sent by the Creator of the world! Uncover thy paths, O sea, for My children, that they may go through the midst of thee on dry ground.'"

Moses spoke to the sea as God had bidden him, but it replied, "I will not do according to thy words, for thou are only a man born of woman, and, besides, I am three days older than thou, O man, for I was brought forth on the third day of creation, and thou on the sixth." Moses lost no time, but carried back to God the words the sea has spoken, and the Lord said" "Moses, what does a master do with an intractable servant?" "He beats him with a rod," said Moses. "Do thus!" ordered God. "Lift up thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea and divide it." [30]

Thereupon Moses raised up his rod - the rod that had been created at the very beginning of the world, on which were graven in plain letters the great and exalted Name, the names of the ten plagues inflicted upon the Egyptians, and the names of the three Fathers, the six Mothers, and the twelve tribes of Jacob. This rod he lifted up, and stretched it out over the sea. [31]

The sea, however, continued in its perverseness, and Moses entreated God to give His command direct to it. But God refused, saying: "Were I to command the sea to divide, it would never again return to its former estate. Therefore, do thou convey My order to it, that it be not drained dry forever. But I will let a semblance of My strength accompany thee, and that will compel its obedience." When the sea saw the Strength of God at the right hand of Moses, it spoke to the earth saying, "Make hollow places for me, that I may hide myself therein before the Lord of all created things, blessed be He." Noticing the terror of the sea, Moses said to it: "For a whole day I spoke to thee at the bidding of the Holy One, who desired thee to divide, but thou didst refuse to pay heed to my words; even when I showed thee my rod, thou didst remain obdurate. What hath happened now that thou skippest hence?" The sea replied, "I am fleeing, not before thee, but before the Lord of all created things, that His Name be magnified in all the earth." [32] And the waters of the Red Sea divided, and not they alone, but all the waters in heaven and on earth, in whatever vessel it was, in cisterns, in wells, in caves, in casks, in pitchers, in drinking cups, and in glasses, and none of these waters returned to their former estate until Israel has passed through the sea on dry land. [ 33]

http://philologos.org/__eb-lotj/vol3/p01.h...20SEA%20DIVIDED

[structurecop]

Quint: Cage goes in the water, you go in the water. Shark's in the water. Our shark.

[sings]

Quint: Farewell and adieu to you, fair Spanish ladies. Farewell and adieu, you ladies of Spain. For we've received orders for to sail back to Boston. And so nevermore shall we see you again.

Are you saying Jonah may have been swallowed by a Great White?

[Strindberg]

There is a bizarre story in Ginzburg's The Legends of the Jews, where Moses not only speaks to the sea but they actually argue back and forth. Maybe someone can track down the original source(s).

Now that is an interesting story. I would love to know the source.

Thanks.

[katherine the great]

There is a bizarre story in Ginzburg's The Legends of the Jews, where Moses not only speaks to the sea but they actually argue back and forth. Maybe someone can track down the original source(s).

Hemingway?

[LifeOnaPlate]

Hemingway?

haha

[structurecop]

Hemingway?

Could be -- Hemingway did in fact write a fictional account of a conversation between the Roman soldiers who crucified Christ.

[katherine the great]

And if those kinds of things don't happen in our day, it's our own damn fault -- not His. He hasn't lost the power. We've just lost the faith.

I'm not sure I agree with that. Did the children of Israel during the Exodus have more faith than the saints of today? The narrative sure doesn't indicate so, but I suppose it's possible? (it wouldn't speak very highly of us...) I personally don't feel the need to witness miracles of ancient proportions to believe in God. I'm not expert on our Holy Ghost doctrines, but maybe He/She wasn't around in those times and those people needed gigantic manifestations like that. (although I really don't know.)

Could be -- Hemingway did in fact write a fictional account of a conversation between the Roman soldiers who crucified Christ.

And a conversation between an old man and the sea.

[structurecop]

And a conversation between an old man and the sea.

Argh, of course! It was so obvious. I'm sorry, I resign my post.

[grego]

Are you saying Jonah may have been swallowed by a Great White?

Sure. He was swallowed at the bottom. No whales in that area; sharks are there, though! And, it has happened before.

[rameumptom]

According to the New Oxford Annotated Bible, Ex 14:24-25 indicate an alternate account where the Egyptians are caught in the mud. That is the only alternate account listed for that section.

In my opinion, the staff would indicate an earlier tradition since it shows a reliance on a cultic object. Nephi may had access to a later account that suffered interpolation from Josiah-type reformers.

Also of interest is chapter 15 which seems to be a much older Yahwistic song with a newer account including the destruction of the Egyptians inserted in the middle.

Just for the record, I don't believe in the historicity of the Exodus account.

Actually, Nephi had the Brass Plates, which were ancient and handed down through the line of Joseph. These would possibly have been the source for E, especially since Nephi's version of the waters of Merkabah has Moses in the heroic version. These plates were important enough to be reviewed by the "elders" or "brethren" of the Church in Jerusalem, even in the middle of the night.

Just for the record, I DO believe in the historicity of the account, though it may have gone through some changes over time.

[Maidservant]

D & C 19:15

Isaiah 11:4

Not only that, a quick perusal of the use of 'rod' in the scriptures about half the time means much more than a 'stick' -- it relates to power and direction and correction and perhaps to speech. (Psalm 2:9, Psalm 23:4)

Not least -- the rod of iron

1 Ne 8:19

2 Ne 11:25

Revelations 2:27 ( 12:5; 19:15)

also in Proverbs, where people imagine there is an advocation of beating your child (Prov 13:24), is actually speaking more of teaching and correcting rather than a wooden stick.

Also get a load of 2 Ne 3:17

The English etymology of the word 'rod' gets lost in the Norse (=a club), so perhaps someone with knowledge of that language could point us in a further direction. What is the Hebrew word used in the Exodus version?

[Uncle Dale]

Sure. He was swallowed at the bottom. No whales in that area; sharks are there, though!

And, it has happened before.

It all looks so cozy in the Walt Disney cartoon, "Pinocchio."

But being inside of a giant shark would be nothing like that. No three days' worth of oxygen -- no protection

from the digestive acids -- no chance of survival, without God first breaking the laws of physics.

But, if we allow for the influence of folklore, over many ages, there may well have been a true story,

of a man's escaping the jaws of a shark, that was somehow incorporated into the Jonah story, with

great elaboration.

By the time of Jesus, the story was a symbolical one --- nobody by then was asking who Jonah's descendants

were -- or whether they had preserved a piece of the great goard that sprang up in an instant to shade him

from the hot sun. Nobody was asking for a copy of the history of Nineveh, in which all those people in a day

turned into believers in YHWH.

When Jesus cites the story, it is for its "sign" -- its significance as a symbol for God's power over the

waters of chaois, the monsters of the deep, and over death and sheol itself.

So -- has it happened before? A man three days without air, in the digestive organs of a shark?

No. -- But I'll believe thirty seconds of such stuff, followed by thirty generations of re-telling as folklore.

UD

[grego]

But being inside of a giant shark would be nothing like that. No three days' worth of oxygen -- no protection from the digestive acids -- no chance of survival, without God first breaking the laws of physics.

Actually, Pinocchio was inside a whale.

How long is this "3 days"? Like Jesus'? That's what, 36 hours?

A documented case exists (if I could only find it again) of a man being inside a shark, then coming out. Of course, he was pretty white when he came out. And he was pretty much spit out on shore, too.

Did God have anything to do with Jonah. Perhaps, eh?

It also adds quite a bit of meaning to the "jaws of death", "gates of hell", etc.