Olivery Cowdery

[Jaybear]

"Fanatic," as used by JB, is hardly merely adjectival. It is, rather, a collective noun by which JB attempts to define a people, a collection of individuals, and a belief system. I ask JB, therefore, to produce references, to the extent JB hath such, or withdraw.

I will refer you the dictionary, where you can look up the descriptive noun "fanatic" or the adjective "fanatical."

If you are offended by my use of the term, why don't you just say so. Calling a CFR on the choice of an adjective or descriptive noun is rather childish. Like I said earlier, if you want to start a thread about whether the Mormons who followed BY to Utah can aptly be described as religious fanatics, please go right ahead.

[ERMD]

JB's "fanatic" label may not be too bad, after all.

By his own admission in this thread, Jesus and the Twelve were "fanatics" as well according to his definition.

Sign me up!

[AeonJ]

Not in the slightest, and, as Goetz of the Iron Fist said to the Archbishop . . ..

C

F

R

Or shut up.

CFR?

[ERMD]

Call For References.

[Daniel Peterson]

I don't see a conundrum.

That, I suspect, is because you don't know much.

Why did he return to Utah, and rejoin the church?

Well isn't that where 30,000 plus religious fanatics lived. People who also believed that Oliver played a role in restoring the one true church. Its not really a stretch to think that Utah would be natural place for Oliver to go, if he were looking to exploit his role in the restoration for business and personal purposes.

Before you consider his return to Utah a conundrum, you have to ask, how was he received by the masses of faithful. Was he tarred, feathered and castrated, or was he welcomed back with open arms and open hearts?

Oliver Cowdery died before he could "return" to Utah. (And, incidentally, David Whitmer says that he died bearing testimony of the Book of Mormon.)

Cowdery actions are a conundrum, to only those who have an agenda to promote.

The irony in that statement is so rich that you could probably buy several small nations with the annual interest on it.

[AeonJ]

That, I suspect, is because you don't know much.

Oliver Cowdery died before he could "return" to Utah. (And, incidentally, David Whitmer says that he died bearing testimony of the Book of Mormon.)

The irony in that statement is so rich that you could probably buy several small nations with the annual interest on it.

Was Oliver ever in Utah?

[Uncle Dale]

Was Oliver ever in Utah?

I'd have to go back and check and see exactly when the organic act for Utah Territory became

effective -- but I think I can safely say that Utah did not even exist during Oliver's lifetime.

And I do not think he ever ventured even a foot west of Kanesville city limits.

Nor should it be thought that Oliver was a Brighamite. He went to Kanesville and was re-baptized

upon the recommendation of his old friend, George W. Harris, Pres. of the High Coucil -- while two

apostles of the Utah Church looked on in approval (one of which was his brother-in-law).

A close study of Oliver's correspondence and reports of his late-life views shows that he felt that

David Whitmer held just as much valid priesthood as did Brigham Young (and probably more).

Oliver seemingly had no great interest in moving west, even though he had relatives there. He was

not a polygamist and probably would have not fit in well in Great Salt Lake City, even if his frail

health would have held up long enough for him to have crossed the plains.

So no --- Oliver went nowhere --- except to Missouri to die. He would have liked to have traveled

to Europe, but that was just a dream for him.

UD

[Calm]

Oliver was challenged once in court in Ohio about his association with the Church after he had left it, in an effort to discredit him to the jury. He defended his beliefs and what he did.

If you will provide me with a set of reliable source citations for that assertion,

I will upload the information to my web-site:

Oliver Cowdery.com

Otherwise, stick to stuff you know for certain is accurate.

UD

Not so far as I can determine.

I've looked through literally scores of thousands of old newspapers, searching for reports on

Oliver Cowdery. The Richmond, Missouri papers may indeed reprint a couple of Mormon allegations,

but without citations back to anything from Oliver's time period. What little original reporting I have so

far discovered, I've placed on the web for all to see.

I could get a letter published in my local newspaper today and in that letter I might cite some

words attributed to Oliver Cowdery. That would not be an original source. It would be "late hearsay."

Let's find some original sources on what Oliver said and did, so that we do not waste our time

repeating unverified hearsay.

UD

I believe the FAIR conference talk about OC dealt with this---no first or even secondhand evidence of the court testimony save reported with quite a gap IIRC (I think three sources were listed for this story)...sounds like a rumour got started and confused some facts into a nice little mormon myth.

[Uncle Dale]

I believe the FAIR conference talk about OC dealt with this---no first or even secondhand evidence of the court testimony save reported with quite a gap IIRC (I think three sources were listed for this story)...sounds like a rumour got started and confused some facts into a nice little mormon myth.

Then again, even rumors oftimes start with a grain of truth.

Somewhere in Tiffin, Ohio there is an 1846 newspaper, lining the bottom of an antique bird-cage,

in somebody's attic, that holds the key to all of this.

Uncle "let's just hope the missing Oliver article is on the bottom side of that hunk of liner" Dale