Satan Transforming Into An Angel Of Light

[TrespassersW]

If Satan does have the power to appear as an angel of light, why does he not do so more often?

I suspect that Satan and his minions find it more useful to try to get people to doubt the existence of spiritual beings at all. Once they start appearing to people, that option kind of goes out the window. In other words, there seems a far greater potential for such a tactic to backfire disastrously.

As for D&C 129, I think most LDS take this section a bit more literally than I would. I don't believe that shaking hands is some kind of magic test that Satan and his minions are not capable of passing. I believe that the key is this:

- A resurrected being will shake hands

- A genuine spiritual messenger of God will refuse to shake hands

- A minion of Satan will offer to shake hands, but you cannot feel it

Notice that genuine messengers of God will not employ deception in any form. Meanwhile, a devil will seek to impress you by surprising you with his intangibility. I think that is what D&C 129 is all about. Messengers from God are straightforward and employ no deception. Those under the influence of Satan will attempt to impress you and dazzle you with cheap theatrics. It is not the specific actions, but the spirit behind them that one should pay attention to.

Just my thoughts.

[Pahoran]

Well Abulafia, the LDS stock answer to that is that other men's wives were only spiritually sealed to Joseph Smith. In other words he did not have sexual relations with them. Thus he was not allegedly committing sin. Do you believe that?

Well William, the stock anti-Mormon retort is that Joseph never did anything except to gratify his ravenous sexual appetites. Thus, he didn't really believe any of the principles he taught, dedicated his life to, and died for. Do you believe that?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Cold Steel]

Excellant question! Probably the best I have ever seen asked on a MB.

Oh come on, you haven't been around much, have you?

Recall, if you will, that Joseph Smith said a force of darkness seized him, then a brilliant white light that instantly dispelled it. Since Jesus told us that people with devils could not cast out devils (a house divided and so forth, as another devil reminded us), it would be impossible for Satan to dispel Satan.

Ways have been revealed to detect deceiving angels or there would be no way of knowing. Besides, the Restoration fulfilled too many other scriptures.

[Cold Steel]

Meanwhile, a devil will seek to impress you by surprising you with his intangibility. I think that is what D&C 129 is all about. Messengers from God are straightforward and employ no deception. Those under the influence of Satan will attempt to impress you and dazzle you with cheap theatrics. It is not the specific actions, but the spirit behind them that one should pay attention to.

I believe that devils are under restraint. If they do appear, they must offer you their hand. They have no choice but are compelled to. I also think that there are other, unkown, restrictions that they're under. For example, I don't think they can kill a person unless they're so far in the power of the Adversary that he has that right.

[_Frost]

Paul writes: "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light." (2 Cor. 11:14) Later, the saints were warned, "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." (Gal 1:

Interesting quote. Last I remembered, Joseph Smith preached a gospel different from that of the Bible. But I'm sure there are old threads dealing with that.

anywho, I think it applies to concepts. We may think that such and such is God's will for our lives, but if indeed it happens to include something contrary to scripture, than it is the deception of sin. I really don't think Satan makes frequent appearances in the world, but wasn't he called the bringer of light, "lux ferre" Lucifer, to begin with? So some sin masquerades as holiness. That's all I can think of, since spirit of any sort really aren't the happenin' thing these days.

[Thinking]

Identifying false angels is so important that we were given an entire section of the D&C on how to ID them:

SECTION 129

...

6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appearâ??

7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.

8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.

If these verses really are true, don't you think we need to come up with a new plan? If a devil wants to deceive you, all he has to do is "not move" when you ask to shake hands. Then you will believe that he is "the spirit of a just man made perfect."

[Neighbor]

Here are a few comments from Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith:There is more about the trying the spirits in the following: And also the following:Sorry for the length but I hope this helps.

I need to go back and digest the complete copied text, but as they say about using the word 'never', I found this statement that contradicts what the prophets before have said about Cheribs (sp?), that they have wings.

An angel of God never has wings.

Having had a visitation a long time ago, I can attest that the angel did not have wings and wore a white robe.

Ever wonder why angels like white robes instead of jeans and a t-shirt?:-)

I'm more inclined to think that Rigdon and Pratt came up with the matters in conversation with JS on the topic and that JS gave the speach. It just seems too Prattish in some ways, as he was prone to elaborate in "The Seer".

[Lightbearer]

If these verses really are true, don't you think we need to come up with a new plan? If a devil wants to deceive you, all he has to do is "not move" when you ask to shake hands. Then you will believe that he is "the spirit of a just man made perfect."

Since I quoted so much above maybe it was missed here is what the Prophet said about that possibility:

(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Four 1839-42 Pg.161) "Some will say that they have seen a spirit; that he offered them his hand, but they did not touch it. This is a lie. First, it is contrary to the plan of God; a spirit cannot come but in glory; an angel has flesh and bones; we see not their glory. The devil may appear as an angel of light. Ask God to reveal it; if it be of the devil, he will flee from you; if of God, He will manifest Himself, or make it manifest. We may come to Jesus and ask Him; He will know all about it; if He comes to a little child, he will adapt himself to the language and capacity of a little child.

Not every spirit, or vision, or singing, is of God. The devil is an orator; he is powerful; he took our Savior on to a pinnacle of the Temple, and kept Him in the wilderness for forty days. The gift of discerning spirits will be given to the Presiding Elder. Pray for him that he may have this gift."

[Neighbor]

I would suggest going back and reviewing Abraham meeting the angels. He offered them a meal and ate with them. Off hand I don't remember anything about shaking hands. That is a custom we have here. How could Abraham have known if he didn't first shake hands?

The direct warning was to not be deceived.

If God says something you do it, you believe it, you never deny it.

Satan always gets some kind of inroad to question what God said, deny what God said and then oppose what God said.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I would suggest going back and reviewing Abraham meeting the angels. He offered them a meal and ate with them. Off hand I don't remember anything about shaking hands. That is a custom we have here. How could Abraham have known if he didn't first shake hands?

The direct warning was to not be deceived.

If God says something you do it, you believe it, you never deny it.

Satan always gets some kind of inroad to question what God said, deny what God said and then oppose what God said.

Because it wasn't mentioned it didn't happen? ok.....

[Baurak Ale]

I believe that devils are under restraint. If they do appear, they must offer you their hand. They have no choice but are compelled to. I also think that there are other, unkown, restrictions that they're under. For example, I don't think they can kill a person unless they're so far in the power of the Adversary that he has that right.

This is a good guess/theory deduction but its wrong.

If these verses really are true, don't you think we need to come up with a new plan? If a devil wants to deceive you, all he has to do is "not move" when you ask to shake hands. Then you will believe that he is "the spirit of a just man made perfect."

Correct.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For a long time my best deduction was the same as Cold Steel's but I was never satisfied with it and knew that was not the way it must really work. About 8 months ago, I was watching my favourite movie of all time again for the 100th time Superman Returns II. In the finale scene that wrapps it all up, it suddenly clicked and I understood what Joseph Smith was trying to communicate by these testing and trying procedures in his words to "prevent imposition". In summary supermans final showdown with the three arch villians takes place on his home turf the idyllic 'fortress of solitude' his home made of crystal and ice. Ursla the female villian has Louise lane hostage. At this point and this is the key an interesting dialogue takes place.

Superman whispers to Lex Luther who is also at the Mercy of the three arch villians that he should try and trick them and somehow get them all into a glass molecule chamber located in the room. To which Lex Luther instantly renegs and betrays supermans trust and informs the arch villians to not go in there that it is a molecule chamber that takes away supernatural powers and leaves one only a destitute mortal. Zod the head arch villian informs Lex Luther he has done well, and thanks him, who Zod ironically had almost killed him just previously as he believed he had no further usefulness to him.

Superman is then faced with the decision to go into the molecule chamber and be stripped of all his powers and be at the mercy of General Zod or see Louise killed infront of him (neck snapped) by Ursla. Faced with the situation presented he regretfully being trapped enters the molecule chamber. After calling Lex Luther a poisenious snake for his betrayal!

The Molecule Chamber powers up and seemingly zapps supermans strength, he exits the chamber and is called over by General Zod and told to kneel before him in submission to which he painfully obeys. He then kneels down and takes Zod's hand which is extended to him. Then he begins to squeeze General Zods hand to the point of audibley crushing all the bones in his hand.

He then effortlessly picks up Zod and drops him into the icy chasm of desolution a feature of the fortress, he falls to his death. Luther then clicks and says with amazement to superman, 'You Switched it!' to which superman gives a nod of acknowledgement. Luther then explains that superman had switched the power of the molecule chamber to the entire fortress while inside the chamber was the only place protected from its rays. So while superman was safe within the chamber all the arch villians were being stipped of their supernatual powers! Superman then says (and here is the pure diamond key of wisdom), "I knew a lying weasel like you would double cross me Luther!

A simple process of handshakes and tokens practicle yes, and why? Because like Luther when ever the opportunity is given at deception they cannot resist but to take it and that is how it works. As Joseph says one may not always be sucessful in the preliminary tests and if still in doubt to pray to the Father to reveal it. Of course it goes without saying that using the passwords signs and tokens to test spirits is only a very small portion of their function and purpose. And of course tokens are not handshakes, as there is no shaking but tokens = hand clasps.

[Abulafia]

you self-righteously prated:

Hey Pahoran! That sounds delicious...

Yes, and fortunately it's not up to you to judge Joseph's life. (Or even Mother Theresa's.)

Pahoran, believe me, if Joseph Smith hadn't made the claims he made and started off a religious movement then I wouldn't have ever heard of him, let alone be judging him or the veracity of his claims.

But look, I take issue with what you are saying to some extent. Of course I have to weigh up the evidence in terms of Joseph's character. Indeed the scriptures (which suits my argument just fine in this case) tell us that by their fruits shall we know them. Now what that scripture really means is another issue, and even whether it was ever said at all. But I'm just trying to be wise in my consideration of Joseph's claims. What kind of life did he live? Was he always honest? How did he treat his wife? etc etc. I would say that an assessment of his character is imperative. Wouldn't you? Otherwise we would all fall for any old argument from any old (or young!) person...

As for Mother Teresa, are you really suggesting I have no right to believe that she lived an exemplary life in which she committed herself to what Jesus is quoted as saying is true religion and undefiled...ie looking after the orphans and widows?

I doubt that there's any less in that verse that might be interesting to look at in terms of your own life, but fortunately for you, we know a whole lot less about your life than we do about Joseph's.

I'm a sinner. Just like you Pahoran! I make no claim to perfection, but then I'm not starting up my own religion and asking other people to join, believe me, or follow a God of my own devising.

Mary

[jadams_4242]

sin is missing the mark of perfection set by God

Yes I asked the LORD about this

Yes JS sinned in taking more than one wife

And because Iii can answer these---doesn't qualify me to be the right person either

Sin is missing the mark set by God?

NO , sin is doing something that we know we are not supposed to do.

[William the Conqueror]

Well William, the stock anti-Mormon retort is that Joseph never did anything except to gratify his ravenous sexual appetites. Thus, he didn't really believe any of the principles he taught, dedicated his life to, and died for. Do you believe that?

Regards,

Pahoran

I asked Abulafia not you! If I had asked you I'm sure your answer would have been emphatically YES! On second thought you would probably have made a derisive remark as you almost always do!

[Cold Steel]

Interesting quote. Last I remembered, Joseph Smith preached a gospel different from that of the Bible. But I'm sure there are old threads dealing with that.

You're quite mistaken. It was the biblical gospel that was restored. This will be covered in another thread, but in the life to come, I don't believe the term "Mormon" will be associated with the gospel when it is taught to the dead. Many of the early LDS authorities argued that the spirits of those refusing to be taught would be as ignorant as anyone else upon the Earth who had not received it. Only on Earth is there that distinction. Many living on the Earth now believe that the gospel that was restored through Joseph Smith was fundamentally different than the gospel taught anciently; however, when all lost knowledge is restored later in this dispensation, it will be seen that both gospels were identical. Remember, we have no idea what the secret Christian "mysteries" (rituals) were all about, as they were never recorded and preserved, no one can say whether they're the same or different that what the early LDS authorities taught.

We may think that such and such is God's will for our lives, but if indeed it happens to include something contrary to scripture, than it is the deception of sin. I really don't think Satan makes frequent appearances in the world, but wasn't he called the bringer of light, "lux ferre" Lucifer, to begin with? So some sin masquerades as holiness.

I agree. But running contrary to the scriptures is subjective. When Moses was told to wipe out the Caananites, or Nephi was told to slay Laben, those commands could be construed as being contrary to scripture, yet they were legitimate.

[Pahoran]

I asked Abulafia not you! If I had asked you I'm sure your answer would have been emphatically YES! On second thought you would probably have made a derisive remark as you almost always do!

If you want to have a private conversation with Abulafia, send her an email or a PM. If you want to find a pulpit where you can hold forth to your heart's content and no-one is allowed to challenge your sophomoric platitudes, look elsewhither. This is a discussion forum, Billy boy. If you don't want believing Latter-day Saints to respond to your tripe, then you could always try Concerned Christians, Inc.

Regards,

Pahoran

[ed2276]

Interesting quote. Last I remembered, Joseph Smith preached a gospel different from that of the Bible. But I'm sure there are old threads dealing with that.

Last I remembered , Joseph restored the Gospel that was the same as that of the Bible , which Gospel was made different by philosophers , kings and unenlightened churchmen over the course of some 1700 years.

[kamenraider]

I once spoke to someone that had said they had a personage appear to them, and I asked how they knew it was of God, and they said that the personage had a body. I seriously doubt that this person had a good personage appear to them, based on how they lived their life. Therefore, either they were lying or a resurrected son of perdition (from another world?) appeared to them. Could it be possible, in light of Genesis Chap. 6?

[Baurak Ale]

Aliester Crowley said it is the nature of almost all spirits without exception to attempt deception.

Most occult secret societies are very guarded about conjuration and innvocation rituals in open lodge meetings.

Appart from the O.T.O.. I am not an expert in this area but I am told by a friend of mine that is a high ranking Magus that different spirits are conjured according to the different alignments and orientations of concentric magic cirlce. ie, astrological and planetary signs.

Depending how the circles are orientated I understand different spirits are conjured according to the near infinite combinations of symbols. Clairvoyant incense is often burnt for example like Myrr and Frankinsense for two reasons one is so the smoke creates a kind of mist or fog inorder to give the spirit better sort of holographic dimensionality and visibility to lodge members, apparently with smoke spirits can appear nigh solid in physicallity. Then a fairly complex testing process ensues and spirits are required to recite passages of kabbalah and magical works before being used as a conduit of occult knowledge. In my opinion the following is called "Messing with the wrong end of the stick".

Eliphas Levi

[KEYS SIGNS AND WORDS OF PRIESTHOOD - DETECTING DEVIL - KNOWING GOD]

I preached in the grove on the keys of the Kingdom, Charity &c The keys are certain signs and words1 by which false spirits and personages may be detected from true, which cannot be revealed to the Elders till the Temple is completed--The rich can only get them in the Temple, the poor may get them on the mountain top as did Moses. The rich cannot be saved without charity, giving to feed the poor when and how God requires, as well as building. There are signs in heaven, earth and hell: the Elders must know them all, to be endowed with power, to finish their work and prevent imposition. The devil knows many signs, but does not know the sign of the Son of Man, or Jesus. No one can truly say he knows God until he has handled something, and this can only be in the Holiest of Holies"

Baurak Ale - What must be handled in the Sanctum Sanctorium before one can say they truly know God? The wounds in the hands feet and side of the Saviour must be handled of course.

[Loquacious Lurker]

Mohammad also got duped by Satan.

There are some statements made by Mohammad which cannot quite be reconciled with Muslim teachings, and so scholars of the Koran suggested that, in this case, Mohammad, prophet of God, was actually taking dictation from Satan instead.

Maybe he was just "speaking as a man"...

Edit: By the way, any of you who think that Mother Teresa led an exemplary and untouched life might want to temper that rosy view by reading Christopher Hitchens' excellent book on the subeject, "The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice". I'm sorry, but it's well-documented that the woman was a sadist. She believed suffering brought people closer to Christ, therefore, she routinely denied the dying any access to pain-easing medication. The sick went to her to die. Her order recieved charitable donations in the tens of millions, and yet she did not invest that money to provide a proper hospital for her patients. Her order in Calcutta was as primitive on the day she died as the day she started it. With that money that her order recieved, she could have had built a state-of-the-art hospital that was dedicated to curing people of disease, not placidly watching them die from it, so that they could fulfill this obsession she had with "suffering".

[Baurak Ale]

I do not know the first thing about Mother Teresa, all I know is I once saw a short news film clip of the woman and knew something was seriously wrong with her. She was going around some poverty stricken third world hospital. She went up to a bed with a young indian or african boy that was emaciated half starved to death. She picked up his limbs and just dropped them like a dead weight, it was I think in an effort to show what was already obvious the kid was dying, it was thoroughly disturbing and disrespectful. All I know about her is what I saw she didn't pay much attention to the camera and you could tell this was how she always conducted herself. Freaky. I was surprised at what I saw as I had only ever heard the antithesis.

[consiglieri]

When Paul declares that Satan himself appears as an angel of light, I think that he was either using hyperbole, speaking from personal experience, or more likely, is referring to a scriptural incident which would be recognized by his audience and which is not found in the Old Testament as we have it today.

Does anyone know if such an incident is recorded in the Old Testament?

In any of the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha?

Might this be from the Assumption of Moses, where Satan disputed with Michael over the body of Moses, as referenced in the epistle of Jude?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Cold Steel]

Nothing I know of, but there are plenty of stories about people going to Joseph Smith with stories of angels, only to be told they were not of God. One fellow rode all the way to Salt Lake from miles away to deliver a message to Brigham Young. It was cold and the weather was ice and snow. When Brigham heard that an angel had appeared to this fellow, he told the guy to get back on his horse and to return home. "And," he said, "if that angel comes to you again with a message for me, you tell him to go to hell."

Many non-LDS (especially Catholics) find this story distasteful and non-respectful of the angel's message. Mormons, though, understand it completely. Catholics struggle endlessly over miracles not knowing what to make of them. In a heirarchy, the word of God would come to the Pope, then filter down to the masses. This is the way it's always worked in the LDS church. But popes seem absolutely confounded by them, sometimes reading the given messages over and over.

Since the adoration of Mary is a Catholic innovation, most LDS assume appearances by Mary are Satanic and intended to deceive. Statues crying blood, images appearing on walls; they make no sense to Latter-day Saints.

[consiglieri]

You are right that those types of miracles make little sense to Latter-day Saints. I think this is primarily because Joseph Smith gave another key, as I remember it, to detect a vision from God, saying that a true vision of God would have the purpose of communicating information.

It would not simply be a vision for the sake of having a vision.

Obviously, however, a Catholic might consider it perfectly reasonable to have a vision where no information is communicated. If no information is communicated, it can't very well challenge the status quo, as in your story about Brigham Young, which I had not heard before and liked very much, by the way.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Loquacious Lurker]

Statues crying blood, images appearing on walls; they make no sense to Latter-day Saints.

Quite rightly they shouldn't make sense to Latter Day saints, as these "manifestations" are documented hoaxes or coincidence. Who here thinks that the Creator of the Universe wants to have his penultimate miracles center around an image of himself on a burnt tortilla?