Brigham Quote

[Zeta-Flux]

I seem to recall reading somewhere that someone asked Brigham Young about some people on earth being less valiant in the pre-mortal world, and he answered that it wasn't the case. He said all here exercised faith in Christ, or something to that effect. I'm wondering if anyone knows where to find it.

Thanks,

Zeta-Flux

[kamenraider]

"25 [December 1869] Christmas I Called upon President Young & G. A. Smith in the morning. I attended the school of the prophets. Many Questions were asked. Presidet Young answered them.

Lorenzo Young asked if the Spirits of Negroes were Nutral in Heaven. He said someone said Joseph Smith said they were. Presidet Young said No they were not. There was No Nutral spirits in Heaven at the time of the Rebelion. All took sides. he said if any one said that He Herd the Prophet Joseph Say that the spirits of the Blacks were Nutral in Heaven He would not Believe them for He herd Joseph Say to the Contrary. All spirits are pure that Come from the presence of God. The posterity of Cane are Black Because He Commit Murder. He killed Abel & God set a Mark upon his posterity But the spirits are pure that Enter their tabernacles & there will be a chance for the redemption of all the Children of Adam Except the Sons of perdition."

--Waiting for World's End: The Diaries of Wilford Woodruff, Ed. by Susan Staker, SLC: Signature, 1993, pg. 300.

[Son]

1/3 chose Christ 1/3 chose Satan 1/3 sat on the fence, luke warm, no decision.

[Connolly]

1/3 chose Christ 1/3 chose Satan 1/3 sat on the fence, luke warm, no decision.

Call for source.

[freakin a man]

I think its possible that some people where more "valient" than others. Within any large group, one will see differences among the people in how they work and want they do. One can have a group of hometeachers in a ward and even if one has 100% hometeaching every month, one might see that some hometeachers do a little more for those they hometeach than others might. So though we all accepted Christ's plan, I think some where a little more committed than others. I don't think however that God punished in any meaningful way those that might have been a little less vallient as they passed the larger test of follow the Father and Christ's plan over Satans.

[Thinking]

1/3 chose Christ 1/3 chose Satan 1/3 sat on the fence, luke warm, no decision.

Call for source.

Revelation 12

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

D&C 29

36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

37 And they were thrust down, and thus came the devil and his angels;

Here are some questions to consider when trying to understand these verses.

Does "third part" mean that there were three groups or does it mean 1/3 of the hosts?

If "third part" means three groups, does it necessarily mean that the three groups were of equal size?

If "third part" means 1/3, can the other 2/3 be one group? (which would mean that 2/3 were valient)

[kamenraider]

Call for source.

Just for fun, here's one from Mosiah Hancock's vision of the pre-existence:

"Again it is decreed that those males who have taken no part in this great conflict shall keep their females and a race of servants shall they be."

http://www.2s2.com/chapmanresearch/user/do...ts/hancock.html

I must say though, that from a doctrinal standpoint, I'm kind of suspicious of this vision because it makes polygamy look like a measure of expediency to deal with the unequal male/female ratio after the supposedly males-only rebellion of Lucifer and the 1/3 that were his supporters. Only males? I don't think so. Polygamy just a way to accomodate excess female spirits rather than an eternal, holy principle? Sounds suspicious to me. And of course it has been said that there were no neutrals in the war in heaven, which sounds pretty much like what this describes to me, even though those who took no part in the war may have finally been seen to have sided with the plan of Heavenly Father.

[Calm]

Just for fun, here's one from Mosiah Hancock's vision of the pre-existence:

"Again it is decreed that those males who have taken no part in this great conflict shall keep their females and a race of servants shall they be."

http://www.2s2.com/chapmanresearch/user/do...ts/hancock.html

I must say though, that from a doctrinal standpoint, I'm kind of suspicious of this vision because it makes polygamy look like a measure of expediency to deal with the unequal male/female ratio after the supposedly males-only rebellion of Lucifer and the 1/3 that were his supporters.

There is also the problem that this would mean that those females' eventual celestial status (or lack of it) is dependent on their husbands, not on their own 'merits' (acceptance of Christ as Saviour, etc.). This is contrary to church doctrine.

****Having fully read the quote now, I see that my conclusion was in part wrong--that these are the couples that chose together to be neutral, not just the males.

This does seem to, however, to completely contradict the principles of repentance as well as several others that I can't quite verbalize at this time of night--going to back to bed before I force myself to wake up too much to make sense.

[LifeOnaPlate]

It follows logically that if our station after this life is affected by our choices here, the same can be said about premortality.

As it says in the Book of Abraham, he was shown many of the "noble and great ones," implying their were levels of nobility, or valiancy, in the premortal life from which leaders were selected; not to favor them, but to help leaven the whole. By setting them apart, God was ensuring the best shepherds could help guide his sheep. It has been suggested that this is why Christ said his sheep "hear his voice," because the latent testimonies respond to the familiar as light cleaves to light.

[Zeta-Flux]

I think it wrong to jump from the conclusion that 'some are great and noble' to the idea that others must be 'less valiant'. (For example, it might just be a matter of capacity.) That we were different in the pre-mortal world, it is clear. But we were all *pure* before the Lord (that is, those who did not rebel).

[Calm]

Not only that, but our station in the next life fills a different purpose than our station in this life which is a probation, a school, etc. Therefore to assume that the same protocol is employed is invalid reasoning, imo.

Too easy to start judging people's righteousness by their current status and I think the past is a great example of what happens...wrongly imo when one applies the same reason to the preexistence and our birth 'status'.