How Wide The Gap

[Son]

You see those little squares right before the 950 and before the 700?

That means your cut and paste didn't work out so well.

Too bad you don't understand what you are looking at here. If you did you would realize that this cut and paste from the paper of D. A. Mazurenko et. al. is not an appropriate response to the question.

You said each element has a certain vibratory rate. If so, the answer should be in cycles per second. It should also be a kind of vibration that can apply to every element and in every phase.

But this paper only applies to certain spherical shell configurations of atoms of one type and is about acoustic-optical coupling. This is not something that could ever apply to an element as such (try hydrogen or calcium).

This paper treats something very far from being a fundamental fact about gold as an element.

You said that each element has a certain vibratory rate but in fact this is far from true since there are an infinite number of modes of excitation of any given "isolated" atom of an element. When the atom is subject to a potential is can vibrate at a frequency that also depends on the nature of the potential.

So there is no single unique vibratory rate associated to gold.

Quit trying to BS us.

No smoke and mirrors here, you think I don't know that I cut and pasted this. Do you think I was trying to hide that, do you think that I am at all trying to fool you regarding my knowledge of science.

This is a vibratory rate of Gold. Just what you inquired about. I never said that vibratory rates are constant. We effect elements and people all time with our own vibrations. To deny this is to deny existence.

Pebble in a pond, Moon Gravitational pull on the earth. There is a vibration for every form of creation, in order for it to come into being. That is God knowledge, not until one is a god and can create, will they know what the TRUE rate of vibration is for all things.

I think I made that clear, when pointing out that man only has his charts and graphs, in order to TRY to build a dialogue and vocabulary regarding things that only the Spirit can FULLY reveal.

Seeing as you tie the Spirit behind your back and don't bring it into the discussion, this would be incomprehensible to you, ie. Un belive able............

The wisest scientist is GOD............Your FAther and mine. Because you choose to be dis inherited is your perrogative, but don't try to put people in boxes that deny expansion (heaven)..

[Tarski]

No smoke and mirrors here, you think I don't know that I cut and pasted this. Do you think I was trying to hide that, do you think that I am at all trying to fool you regarding my knowledge of science.

This is a vibratory rate of Gold.

Is it really now?

Well, I guess I can take a piece of gold or wood or the cranium of a stubborn person and gently shake it to get it to vibrate at all sorts of rates. Or I could use sound to vibrate a thing like an ear drum. So what?

This is not the kind thing you had in mind is it now? What you wanted to assert is some basic vibrational rate proper to each element that makes it what it is. You haven't done that and even if you did, it would not necessarily have any connection to a conscious act of creation by some being nor would it be a spiritual thing untouched by science.

Again, you are just parroting the newage movements misappropriation of scientific jargon.

You need to move to a different section of a Barnes and Noble.

"energies"

"vibrations"

"fields"

"forces"

"observers"

"creation and annihilation"

[Tarski]

Truth matters only in as much as it leads to happiness. Without the drive for a better life (i.e. greater happiness) we wouldn't care one wit about "truth."

Agree or disagree? Why?

Sorry. I just want to know whats true. Then I will decide if I like it or not.

[Son]

Is it really now?

Well, I guess I can take a piece of gold or wood or the cranium of a stubborn person and gently shake it to get it to vibrate at all sorts of rates. Or I could use sound to vibrate a thing like an ear drum. So what?

This is not the kind thing you had in mind is it now? What you wanted to assert is some basic vibrational rate proper to each element that makes it what it is. You haven't done that and even if you did, it would not necessarily have any connection to a conscious act of creation by some being nor would it be a spiritual thing untouched by science.

Again, you are just parroting the newage movements misappropriation of scientific jargon.

You need to move to a different section of a Barnes and Noble.

"energies"

"vibrations"

"fields"

"forces"

"observers"

"creation and annihilation"

Parroting is a human past time, unless you are the author of Quantum Physics, and Atheism, then we are no different.

I'm not into New Age thinking, the only one's that I have seen classified as new age that I have read is Annalee Skarins collection and I think it is mis categorized as new age, they are way beyond new age channeling, crystals New age takes in alot of concepts that I don't agree with.

All things that are created have a vibrational rate, that attracts what ever is imagined in the mind to itself. Mind is the activator of matter. Mind over Matter.

What an outside force does to an element changes the vibration possibly, but does not alter what makes it what it is. All things are composed of light, light has a vibrational value. Each element has its value or rate, otherwise it could not be, and all matter would be the same.

You have never heard of this?

[Tarski]

Heh-heh... as another critic steps in to say amen Tarski!!! And the rest remain silent...

Of course, you haven't given your opinion on the topic either. (heh heh).

Perhaps you are a fan of something on the list?

[Tarski]

Parroting is a human past time, unless you are the author of Quantum Physics, and Atheism, then we are no different.

I'm not into New Age thinking, the only one's that I have seen classified as new age that I have read is Annalee Skarins collection and I think it is mis categorized as new age, they are way beyond new age channeling, crystals New age takes in alot of concepts that I don't agree with.

All things that are created have a vibrational rate, that attracts what ever is imagined in the mind to itself. Mind is the activator of matter. Mind over Matter.

Nonsense.

I predict that you could not even move a bread crumb with your mind (unless by using your body like us atheists). Yet, you sound like you think you could fly.

[grego]

Tarski,

What a laugh.

IIRC, you have yet to put forth any good argument against any of those points on their respective threads. So why open a new one about the topics--to hope to get others to help you out? To make you feel better about what YOU believe? To try to inhibit others and their *knowledge* of the true things, because your *faith* in science and math makes you feel uncomfortable?

Let's see, it appears on one thread you skipped over my comments twice (or was that three times?) on EFT and QT, never even responding--even though you took the time to look it all up. Then you have the gall, in front of all that evidence and personal experience and the simple ability to see for yourself--to say it's all false, and call for reinforcements (what, getting other LDS to say it's false will make you feel better or make your case stronger?). What a great scientist you would make, eh?

Did you try it? No.

As this thread shows, you must have it proven to you first, before you are even open to anything. Yet you hold yourself to be one of the only people in the world that holds the keys to the universe. Pathetic. (All this reminds me of Sethbag's call for help against the hellion grego on the Nephi thread.)

Then Paul takes you up on your challenge--and you can't take your words back, yet you can't go through with it, either.

I enjoy watching you and Son interact...

On second thought, maybe it's a good idea to have this thread. It's a call to action for everyone! Anyone wanting to talk about many of those topics--I'm open. Many others have been, too--there have been other threads on similar topics.

Now, how about you? IIRC, you nor anyone else responded to Marmonboy's(?) personal experience with his cattle being cut up, after all the laughing and mocking... Suddenly stopped after that, huh?

-=-=-=

Paul Ray,

Good luck negotiating with Tarksi--last time we made a deal (a year ago?--sorry, it's been so long I've forgotten), he still owes a reading I'm sure he hasn't gotten far on...

[Tarski]

Then Paul takes you up on your challenge--and you can't take your words back, yet you can't go through with it, either.

I enjoy watching you and Son interact...

You and Paul both seem to have difficulty understanding English. If I say I am willing to bet life and limb that nothing on that list is real that does not mean I owe Paul Ray my life. It only makes sense in a situation where my life did depend on whether one of those things was true. But it doesn't.

What do you want me to do? Let Paul Ray or Son give some false and silly proof of one of those things and then have to tediously point it out that the proof didn't work while they insist that it did and that I must now kill myself or something dumb like that?

Go ahead and prove any of it if you can. All the stuff on the list has been tested in a controlled way and it fails. if it makes you feel better, let me point out that I know how to astral travel. I just realize it isn't real.

I have tried all sorts of stuff and it either didn't work or only seemed to until futher skeptical tests could be made.

So I have tried many things, skeptics have tested this stuff (they tried it).

People who believe in it have been tested.

Someone, (Son?) even tried to remote view my basement and failed. That should have ended that.

[BarrelO'Mangoes]

Truth matters only in as much as it leads to happiness. Without the drive for a better life (i.e. greater happiness) we wouldn't care one wit about "truth."

Agree or disagree? Why?

I find this odd.

There are plenty of truths that lead to unhappiness. Should we ignore these truths?

Even on Ectasy btw you can be dehydrated and die. Happy and the truth of being close to death. Woop!

Please don't use taglines to slam other posters by using their name. That is harrassment. Mods

[grego]

You and Paul both seem to have difficulty understanding english. If I say I am willing to be life and limb that nothing on that list is real that does not mean I owe Paul Ray my life. It only makes sense in a situation where my life did depend on wether one of those things was true. But it doesn't.

With spelling like that, who wouldn't have a hard time? Okay, just joking!

Okay, so you were joking? Just say so. If not, deal with it. They're your words.

-=-=-=

I must now kill myself or something dumb like that?

I seriously doubt that. More than anything, I would imagine they would just ask you to be open to considering God and other things--without requiring "absolute proof" first.

-=-=-=

All the stuff on the list has been tested in a controlled way and it fails.

CFR. I hold that all of the stuff hasn't, and hasn't.

Tarski, I expect you to debate the points and answer the questions. For example, did you, or did you not, try EFT (on your own or with a practitioner)? Did you, or did you not, try QT (on your own, or with a practitioner)? And you know, many practitioners have a policy--no change, no pay--you won't even be out the money to prove it false... I challenge you to see.

[amantha]

Sorry. I just want to know whats true. Then I will decide if I like it or not.

Sorry. I don't buy that.

You only seek the truth because you see a benefit in it. Otherwise you wouldn't do it. A benefit is something that you "like."

All organisms gravitate to what is beneficial for their survival. Your wanting is an indication of reaching for a benefit. You already "like" what enhances your survival. In this sense your wanting and liking are the same.

Since I assume you are more or less past survival mode, I have to assume that the benefits for which you reach are of a higher scale...things like a more enjoyable survival which could be called greater comfort or greater happiness.

Science benefits us, that's why we pursue it. Faith also benefits us, that's why we create mythos to answer the unanswerable. Mythos, IMO, will always be that which lies outside of our scientific ability to explain our reality, but it will never go away. Agnosticism toward the things which we do not yet understand is not necessarily better than mythologies which are reassuring and allow us to set aside the existential questions to get on with our lives. Just because agnosticism works for you does not mean that others should (not) believe as you do.

People may yet need their faith. I believe they always will.

[amantha]

I find this odd.

There are plenty of truths that lead to unhappiness. Should we ignore these truths?

Even on Ectasy btw you can be dehydrated and die. Happy and the truth of being close to death. Woop!

Please don't use taglines to slam other posters by using their name. That is harrassment. Mods

We want to know all truths because knowing them will allow us to better adjust our course toward happiness. Someone please tell what we are living and striving for if not happiness.

[BarrelO'Mangoes]

We want to know all truths because knowing them will allow us to better adjust our course toward happiness. Someone please tell what we are living and striving for if not happiness.

I'm living because I don't want to die. What I'm striving for is happiness. But truth does not always bring about happiness.

Finding out your husband cheated on you? Nope, probably not too happy.

Taxes? That's a truth that does NOT make me happy.

Death. Not happy about that.

[Tarski]

Sorry. I don't buy that.

You only seek the truth because you see a benefit in it. Otherwise you wouldn't do it. A benefit is something that you "like."

Consider this. Suppose that a super being came and told you that he/she could make you believe the truth or a comforting lie by effecting a change in your brain. Suppose the being told you that the truth was uncomfortable and unpleasant and would bring you no pleasure and that this fact would be forgotten if you chose to accept the implant of the comforting lie. What would you choose?

(Think blue pill // red pill in the movie The Matrix).

Give me the the red pill.

[Deborah]

Consider this. Suppose that a super being came and told you that he/she could make you believe the truth or a comforting lie by effecting a change in your brain. Suppose the being told you that the truth was uncomfortable and unpleasant and would bring you no pleasure and that this fact would be forgotten if you chose to accept the implant of the comforting lie. What would you choose?

(Think blue pill // red pill in the movie The Matrix).

Give me the the red pill.

I too would elect the red pill. It is funny because when I saw the Matrix I thought of those taking the red pill as those who saw the light of the gospel and were willing to pay the price to have the truth. Shows how different views can adapt a story to fit their philosophy, even though two people may have totally opposite philosophies.

[grego]

(Think blue pill // red pill in the movie The Matrix).

Give me the the red pill.

Really? Ok, here it is--all you have to do is swallow it--but you won't. First, you would, I imagine, have to:

1. ask, "How do I know this will do what it you say it will?"

2. put it under a microscope, do an MRI, fully and completely analyze it in every way possible, etc. If your current understanding of it didn't exactly match with the effects that were specified...

3. ask whether Randi has payed out a $1mill on it yet.

4. etc.

5. Then, you would actually have to put it in your hand, put it in your mouth, swallow it down, and keep it down...

Given all that, and what has just happened (challenges), *I* don't think you *would* take the red pill.

Yes, as hard as it may be to believe, people do have a POV other than your own. In fact, all people--just in differing degrees. It's a *fact* of life.

[Tarski]

Really? Ok, here it is--all you have to do is swallow it--but you won't. First, you would, I imagine, have to:

1. ask, "How do I know this will do what it says it will?"

2. put it under a microscope, do an MRI, fully and completely analyze it in every way possible, etc. If your current understanding of it didn't exactly match with the effects that were specified...

3. ask whether Randi has payed out a $1mill on it yet.

4. etc.

5. Then, you would actually have to put it in your hand, put it in your mouth, swallow it down, and keep it down...

Your right. In real life, I wouldn't be swallowing any pills given to me by a guy in a trench coat at all.

But it was just a metaphor.

[grego]

Go the easier route--try EFT.

[Tarski]

Go the easier route--try EFT.

I wonder if Jesus charged for his wisdom.

Also, why didn't he mention this miracle of tapping on the body's energy points for healing?

[amantha]

I'm living because I don't want to die. What I'm striving for is happiness. But truth does not always bring about happiness.

Finding out your husband cheated on you? Nope, probably not too happy.

Taxes? That's a truth that does NOT make me happy.

Death. Not happy about that.

You're on a whole other topic.

The questioned I posed to Tarski has to do with his "reason" for seeking truth--not that truth always brings happiness.

People who believe in OBEs and Astral Travel and Catholicism and Mormonism and Budhism do so for a reason. I am suggesting that the reason they do this is to survive and further to be happy. I am also suggesting that the reason scientists pursue "scientific truth" is for the same reason.

[amantha]

Consider this. Suppose that a super being came and told you that he/she could make you believe the truth or a comforting lie by effecting a change in your brain. Suppose the being told you that the truth was uncomfortable and unpleasant and would bring you no pleasure and that this fact would be forgotten if you chose to accept the implant of the comforting lie. What would you choose?

(Think blue pill // red pill in the movie The Matrix).

Give me the the red pill.

If I choose the "truth" in whatever form it will be because I believe that I will benefit from (like) it. If I truly believed that there was no benefit in the truth, I would not seek it out. Thankfully, there are apparently no superbeings or Morpheus' out there telling me that the "desert of the real" is the ultimate end. When you set up your "consider this..." scenario, I was reminded of Billy Crystal in City Slickers when his friend asked him what he would do if a space ship with a beautiful babe in it suddenly appeared. Cystal stooped over to ask the horse if it was listening. Your supposition is just as much a fantasy as any mythos.

We ultimately behave based on pleasure pain stimuli. We want to be happy. You would choose the red pill ultimately because you believe knowing the truth gives you more control over your life and thus a better ability to survive and perhaps be happy.

I personally don't believe that ignorance is bliss and that truth is agony. I believe that truth is a guide (not unlike the "intuitive" oracle character (since we're on a Matrix analogy ). We simply don't seek the truth if we expect that it will ultimately be bad for us.

So suppose this...A super genie comes to you with a sadistic choice between ignorance and pain and truth and greater pain, which do you choose? I choose the truth because I don't believe the genie. I believe the truth will point me in the direction of greater survival and greater happiness.

So if my friends (who by the way allow others to believe as they wish) believe in genies or OBEs and that faith truly brings them greater joy than would agnosticism, then I say that for them to try to become Nietzche's ubermensch may not be beneficial.

[BarrelO'Mangoes]

You're on a whole other topic.

The questioned I posed to Tarski has to do with his "reason" for seeking truth--not that truth always brings happiness.

People who believe in OBEs and Astral Travel and Catholicism and Mormonism and Budhism do so for a reason. I am suggesting that the reason they do this is to survive and further to be happy. I am also suggesting that the reason scientists pursue "scientific truth" is for the same reason.

I replied to your statement:

Truth matters only in as much as it leads to happiness.

But I'll answer your seeking question too. Even though you didn't pose it to me.

You can seek truth and still know that there is the potential for unhappiness.

My example of the cheating husband: Why does the wife seek the truth when she hires a private investigator? She wants to know. She knows it could potentially destroy her life, but nonetheless she needs to know.

The reason I seek truth is to know what lies behind Door Number 1. I understand that it could potentially make me unhappy. It doesn't mean I don't seek to know what is there.

I guess I'm not getting your point. I see truth as being something that has nothing to do with happiness. It just is.

[amantha]

I replied to your statement:

But I'll answer your seeking question too. Even though you didn't pose it to me.

You can seek truth and still know that there is the potential for unhappiness.

My example of the cheating husband: Why does the wife seek the truth when she hires a private investigator? She wants to know. She knows it could potentially destroy her life, but nonetheless she needs to know.

The reason I seek truth is to know what lies behind Door Number 1. I understand that it could potentially make me unhappy. It doesn't mean I don't seek to know what is there.

I guess I'm not getting your point. I see truth as being something that has nothing to do with happiness. It just is.

The wife's need to know has to do with considering her short term happiness vs. her long term happiness. Knowing that she has a cheating mate is a truth which could guide her through short term unhappiness into long term happiness. Her goal is nevertheless the same--to survive and to be happy.

[BarrelO'Mangoes]

The wife's need to know has to do with considering her short term happiness vs. her long term happiness. Knowing that she has a cheating mate is a truth which could guide her through short term unhappiness into long term happiness. Her goal is nevertheless the same.

You're a better person than me. I'd just want to hurt him. Any long term goal of happiness wouldn't even be a part of the equation.

Maybe in the long run my truth seeking will bring me happiness. I don't know. I just want to know because I have a desire to. I sometimes wish I could just fall back into the rabbit hole. I'm pretty sure that would make me a lot happier. But then again, maybe the rabbit hole is truth and I just haven't figured it out yet.

[amantha]

You're a better person than me. I'd just want to hurt him. Any long term goal of happiness wouldn't even be a part of the equation.

Maybe in the long run my truth seeking will bring me happiness. I don't know. I just want to know because I have a desire to. I sometimes wish I could just fall back into the rabbit hole. I'm pretty sure that would make me a lot happier. But then again, maybe the rabbit hole is truth and I just haven't figured it out yet.

No, I'd want to kill him to.

Your wanting to know the truth in this case, may go back to the older parts of your brain, which help you and your offspring to survive, and are therefore unconscious. You are simply programmed to work for your own survival and then your happiness--which actually increases your survivability. I believe that happiness is actually biologically programmed into our survival.

And I believe that for many, a working faith in some mythos, enhances survivability and happiness. But only if they really believe it.

I can't believe in certain mythos anymore so they would not benefit me.

There is a rationale for our irrationality.