How Wide The Gap

[Tarski]

I feel things have changed on this board. It seems that the gap between folks who think like me and the LDS here is somewhat wider than in the past.

I have noticed more far out beliefs being promoted.

Am I imagining it?

Where are the rationalist leaning members these days?

Consider we have people on this board that believe that

1. there might be something to the new age fad called "The Secret" (mind controls physical reality).

2. there may really be people living on the moon (or the sun) but on the astral plane not the physical plane! (Barauk Ale)

3. evolution is false (special creation and garden of eden literal)

4. atoms and molecules have little spirits in them that hold them together

5. there really was a Noah's ark filled with all animal species that might have landed on a mountain in turkey.

6. quantum healing

7. ESP

8. Astral travel !!

9. OBE's are real

10. quantum healing, quantum fields = spirit etc.

11. New world order conspiracy is real

12. divining rods also known as dowsing rods

13. Three Nephites appearing to people as hitchhikers

I would literally bet my life and limb that each one of these things is bunk.

How wide the divide indeed!

[Calm]

I don't see all that many people talking about those subjects. And many of them are talked about by the same person so there may be less people on this board who believe those topics than there are topics in your list.

There is only one on your list (Garden of Eden) that I might agree with, but that would depend on how it was presented as I believe in evolution as well and I am open to it being symbolic.

There are two others I would say "I don't know" on and the rest "highly skeptical".

[LifeOnaPlate]

I feel things have changed on this board. It seems that the gap between folks who think like me and the LDS here is somewhat wider than in the past.

I have noticed more far out beliefs being promoted.

Am I imagining it?

Where are the rationalist leaning members these days?

Consider we have people on this board that believe that

1. there might be something to the new age fad called "The Secret" (mind controls physical reality).

2. there may really be people living on the moon (or the sun) but on the astral plane not the physical plane! (Barauk Ale)

3. evolution is false (special creation and garden of eden literal)

4. atoms and molecules have little spirits in them that hold them together

5. there really was a Noah's ark filled with all animal species that might have landed on a mountain in turkey.

6. quantum healing

7. ESP

8. Astral travel !!

9. OBE's are real

10. quantum healing, quantum fields = spirit etc.

11. New world order conspiracy is real

12. divining rods also known as dowsing rods

13. Three Nephites appearing to people as hitchhikers

I would literally bet my life and limb that each one of these things is bunk.

How wide the divide indeed!

Regarding #3: Can't it be both?

Aren't 2, 7 and 8 all related? At least 2 and 8 are. That brings your list back down to 12. One away from a new set of bizarre articles of faith, if you ask me.

Also, last night on "American Inventor" there was a cute old man who invented "copper healing." He had placed a copper net in his hat, breathed through a copper mask, and wore a woven copper mask on his face as he slept for the past 10 years. He is in his eighties not, and appears to be in good health. He claims it is because of the copper. He even made copper lenses to put in his glasses, and says he has perfect 20/20 sight now. It was great.

That being said, God never damned anyone for believing too much. But that doesn't mean you should.

[Tarski]

I don't see all that many people talking about those subjects. And many of them are talked about by the same person so there may be less people on this board who believe those topics than there are topics in your list.

In my mind there are several that touch something on the list. Barauk Ale, Grego, Son, Ray A. etc.

But I also notice that no LDS step in to contradict any of these statements. So I feel like there is a general sympathy for these things.

[Calm]

That being said, God never damned anyone for believing too much. But that doesn't mean you should.

Wasn't Cain damned for believing Satan? Also quite a few Israelites for believing in a golden calf.

[Calm]

In my mind there are several that touch something on the list. Barauk Ale, Grego, Son, Ray A. etc.

But I also notice that no LDS step in to contradict any of these statements. So I feel like there is a general sympathy for these things.

Son's not LDS.

"Sympathy"? More likely sympathy for the person rather than the idea. If believing it isn't going to affect their salvation, I can imagine quite a few who wouldn't speak up.

There is also the possibility (very likely in my case) that a lot of LDS just don't read the posts on these topics because they aren't interested in it.

[Tarski]

That being said, God never damned anyone for believing too much. But that doesn't mean you should.

Well, this shows that you think it is better to believe more stuff rather than less --but why?

Would God damn someone for not believing enough? Why? Why is belief so admired?

[amantha]

They may be and probably are bunk, but could some or all of these be considered "working hypotheses?"

And very possibly the only value they may bring to the mortal table is "comfort." I don't think this is necessarily wrong.

Richard Dawkins frequently uses the word "comfort" or some synonym somewhat critically when talking of the "faithful." I always wonder what drives Dawkins in his search for truth...scientifically. I don't know the answer but I personally believe that he seeks truth scientifically because that way is comfortable to him.

[MorningStar]

Son's not LDS.

"Sympathy"? More likely sympathy for the person rather than the idea. If believing it isn't going to affect their salvation, I can imagine quite a few who wouldn't speak up.

There is also the possibility (very likely in my case) that a lot of LDS just don't read the posts on these topics because they aren't interested in it.

Yes, exactly. I think a lack of interest is the reason for the lack of speaking up.

[Tarski]

They may and probably are bunk, but could some or all of these be considered "working hypotheses?"

And very possibly the only value they may bring to the mortal table is "comfort."

Richard Dawkins frequently uses the word "comfort" or some synonym somewhat critically when talking of the "faithful." I always wonder what drives Dawkins in his search for truth...scientifically. I don't know the answer but I personally believe that he seeks truth scientifically because that way is comfortable to him.

He states clearly that he wants to get at the truth regardless of comfort!

[Confidential Informant]

Just curious....who gets to define what "rational" is? And why is that definition controlling?

C.I.

[amantha]

He states clearly that he wants to get at the truth regardless of comfort!

Yes. That is why I brought him up. I can't read his mind but I believe that no one acts for long under great discomfort. Maybe this is a naive point of view, but I see Dawkins being very comfortable with the notion that seeking the truth through scientific means as the "true" way.

I tend to agree, but there is a tautology hidden in there. His way may be the "true" way but what is truth without happiness (comfort)?

In other words, if believing in angels brings comfort, empirical truth or not, is the very comfort that is achieved in believing in angels, a form of rational truth?

[Tarski]

I tend to agree, but there is a tautology hidden in there. His way may be the "true" way but what is truth without happiness (comfort)?

truth without happiness is like truth without doughnuts---- the truth.

Oh and

happiness = comfort????

[Doctor Steuss]

Yes, exactly. I think a lack of interest is the reason for the lack of speaking up.

That's generally how I feel when I read those types of things. That, and the fact that I believe some pretty kooky stuff, so who am I to belittle someone elseâ??s kooky stuff.

Edited to add:

I watched the Secret over the weekend. I think it's a load of poop (hopefully that will help build a bridge to Tarski).

[amantha]

truth without happiness is like truth without doughnuts---- the truth.

Oh and

happiness = comfort????

Do you seek truth? And if so, why?

And my search for truth must always bring me doughnuts at least sometimes or it's totally not worth it.

[MorningStar]

1. there might be something to the new age fad called "The Secret" (mind controls physical reality).

I don't even know what that is.

2. there may really be people living on the moon (or the sun) but on the astral plane not the physical plane! (Barauk Ale)

I don't have any reason to believe that's true and don't know what he means by "astral plane".

3. evolution is false (special creation and garden of eden literal)

Many of us believe in evolution and don't take the Garden of Eden story literally.

4. atoms and molecules have little spirits in them that hold them together

????

5. there really was a Noah's ark filled with all animal species that might have landed on a mountain in turkey.

I believe in Noah's Ark, but believe there's more to the story.

6. quantum healing

What is quantum healing?

7. ESP

I believe in spiritual gifts, but I don't belive in psychics.

8. Astral travel !!

Don't believe in it.

9. OBE's are real

Don't know what that is.

10. quantum healing, quantum fields = spirit etc.

?

11. New world order conspiracy is real

I don't have much interest in conspiracies.

12. divining rods also known as dowsing rods

?

13. Three Nephites appearing to people as hitchhikers

Urban legend, although I do believe in their existence.

[Jerubaal]

But I also notice that no LDS step in to contradict any of these statements. So I feel like there is a general sympathy for these things.

For me it is due not to sympathy, but to apathy. Let them believe what they want, so long as they do not claim that these things are part and parcel of Mormonism. And I simply don't want to start fights over such insignificant (to me, at least) issues.

[Paul Ray]

I would literally bet my life and limb that each one of these things is bunk.

You mentioned 13 things.

Would you make the same bet on only one of those issues?

Would it matter which one?... out of all of those issues to choose from?

Your life IS in the balance, Tarski.

Right now I'm just haggling over how much it would really take for you to give it.

[Chris Smith]

I find Baurak Ale's astral traveling comments intriguing. I don't think he's actually astral traveling, but unless he's making this stuff up it would seem he's inducing some kind of weird mind-trip, and I'd be fascinated to learn what it is and how it is accomplished. I feel like all these quasi-religious mind-warp experiences (automatic writing, astral travel, Buddhist enlightenment, etc.) are ultimately connected, and if we could understand what they are then we'd be one step closer to understanding the roots and varieties of much religious experience. The truth is, this message board would be much less interesting if it weren't for a bit of religious quackery here or there.

[Tarski]

You mentioned 13 things.

Would you make the same bet on only one of those issues?

Would it matter which one?... out of all of those issues to choose from?

They are all roughly of equal silliness. I am as sure about them as I am that there are no six inch elves under my bed.

[koakaipo]

Alot of times we all have tunnel vision here. I'll beat to death race issues for instance. I'll seek them out. And then I encounter people with different notions that may make me eyes bleed just looking at them.

You may just be attracted to stuff as a science dude so you'll notice more of those topics with ideas that make your eyes bleed too.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Wasn't Cain damned for believing Satan? Also quite a few Israelites for believing in a golden calf.

I was echoing some of the sentiments Joseph Smith advocated. An older elder was brought up for censure by a high council for teaching what they supposed was false doctrine. The old elder was speculating on what the beast signified in the Book of Revelation. Joseph cautioned against speculative docrtine, and said the old man was wrong in his interpretation, but since what the man was teaching didn't really contradict any pronciples of the gospel, he didn't need to be censured.

In a General Conference of the Church at Nauvoo on Saturday, April 8, 1843 he discussed the situation and said:

"I never thought it was right to call up a man and try him because he erred in doctrine, it looks too much like methodism and not like Latter-day Saintism. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be kicked out of their church. I want the liberty of believing as I please, it feels so good not to be trammelled. It don't prove that a man is not a good man, because he errs in doctrine."

In TPJS he says

I believe all that God ever revealed, and I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief.

I believe Joseph is speaking of errors in beliefs regarding science, trivial religious matters, etc. He is also taking into account the fact that everyone gets a fair shake at accepting the gospel.

At any rate, I stand by what I said.

And as for all these odd theories? I don't take notice of them much. I looked up a little of that astral barauk ale stuff out of curiosity; it was interesting. But that's about it.

[Tarski]

I find Baurak Ale's astral traveling comments intriguing. I don't think he's actually astral traveling, but unless he's making this stuff up it would seem he's inducing some kind of weird mind-trip,

Exactly.

It's easier with Ketamine but vastly more unhealthy.

[Paul Ray]

They are all roughly of equal silliness. I am as sure about them as I am that there are no six inch elves under my bed.

Are you trying to up the price on me now???

If someone could prove to you that one of those issues was true, would you then give your life to that person?

Hmm. Where shall we start? Which issue would you like to focus on, specifically?

I think we can actually close up the gap that you are referring to, if you are interested.

[Tarski]

Are you trying to up the price on me now???

If someone could prove to you that one of those issues was true, would you then give your life to that person?

Hmm. Where shall we start? Which issue would you like to focus on, specifically?

I think we can actually close up the gap that you are referring to, if you are interested.

What do you mean?