Joseph Smith And The Occult

[TrashcanMan79]

In a way He has. The commandment doesn't say "kill", but "murder". A large technical difference.

So, in following God's command to 'not suffer a sorceress to live,' one would be killing, thus not violating God's command to not murder. Got it. Makes perfect sense.

So when did God withdraw the command to 'not suffer a sorceress to live'? Or is the command still valid (as was apparently believed by those who perpetrated the different witch trials throughout history)?

[Tsuzuki]

4. Exodus 22:18 "Do not allow a sorceress to live.” Did the devil influence this verse as well? Wouldn’t that be kind of counter-productive?

It seems to be one of the Bible passages that Joseph Smith claims were corrupted.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/jst/14

"Thou shalt not suffer a

murderer

to live."

- Exodus 22:18 (Joseph Smith Translation)

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

"Wherefore, all things which are good cometh from God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil... take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil... it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night..."

"...for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Chirst, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God."

"But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil..."

"...seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully..."

"...if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ."

"And behold, there were divers ways that he did manifest things unto the children of men, which were good, and all things which are good cometh of Christ..."

"...and they who have faith in him will cleave unto every good thing..."(Moroni 7:12-19, 24, 28)

[Tsuzuki]

"Wherefore, all things which are good cometh from God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil... take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil... it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night..."

"...for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Chirst, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God."

"But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil..."

"...seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully..."

"...if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ."

"And behold, there were divers ways that he did manifest things unto the children of men, which were good, and all things which are good cometh of Christ..."

"...and they who have faith in him will cleave unto every good thing..."(Moroni 7:12-19, 24, 28)

"Everything that is true is beautiful. The only vanity under the sun is error and falsehood. Even pain and death are beautiful, because they are the work which purifies and the transfiguration which delivers. The fleeting forms are true because they are manifestations of the power and beauty of the eternal. Love is true. Woman is holy and her conception is immaculate. True knowledge never deceives; reasonable faith is not an illusion. A cheerful, sympathetic laugh is an act of faith, hope and charity. To go in dread of God is to fail to recognize Him; it is only error which should be dreaded. A man may do anything he wants to do when all he wants to do is justice. He may even, if he so wishes, rush into wrongdoing but he will be dashed to pieces if he does. God reveals Himself to man, in man and by man. His true worship is Charity. Dogmas and rites alter and succeed one another; charity does not change and its power is eternal.

There is only one sole and veritable power on earth as there is in Heaven: it is that of goodness. The righteous are the only masters of the world. The world is in upheaval when they suffer. It is transformed when they die. The oppression of justice is the compression of a force far more terrible than that of high explosives. It is not the masses who raise revolutions, but the kings. The just person is inviolable, woe to him who would touch him! The Caesars have fallen to cinders, burnt by the blood of the martyrs. Whatever a righteous man wishes is approved by God. Whatever a righteous man writes, God signs, and it is an everlasting testament.

The great clue to the riddle of the sphinx is God in man and in nature. Those who separate man from God separate him from nature, because nature is full of God and recoils in horror from atheism. Those who separate man from nature are like sons who would honour their father by cutting off his head. God is the head of nature, so to speak, she would not exist without Him, He would not manifest Himself without her.

God is our Father, but nature is our mother. 'Honour thy father and thy mother,' says the Ten Commandments, 'that thy days may be long in the land.' Emmanuel, God is with you: this is the sacred word of the initiates who go only by the name of Brothers of the Rosy Cross (Rosicrucians). It is in this sense that Jesus Christ could call Himself the Son of God, and God Himself, without blasphemy. It is in this sense that He wants us only to make one with Him as He only makes one with His Father, so that regenerated humanity will realize in this world the great arcanum of the man-God.

Let us love God in one another, for God will never show Himself to us except in one another. Everything lovable about us comes from God in us. God is all there is to be loved, and it is only God whom one loves when one knows how to love truly.

God is light. He does not love darkness. Therefore, if we long to feel God within us, we must let the light into our souls. The tree of Knowledge is not a tree of death except for Satan and his apostles. To the superstitious it is the Manchineel tree, but to us it is the tree of life.

Then we shall no longer say, like stupid slaves, 'This is good because we have been ordered to do it and have been promised a reward and that is bad because we have been told not to do it on pain of chastisement', but we shall say, 'Let us do this because we know that it is good and refrain from doing that because we know that it is evil.'

And thus will be realized the promise of the symbolic serpent:

'You will be as gods, knowing good and evil.'"

- Eliphas Levi,

The Great Secret: or Occultism Unveiled

[Ron Beron]

So, in following God's command to 'not suffer a sorceress to live,' one would be killing, thus not violating God's command to not murder. Got it. Makes perfect sense.

So when did God withdraw the command to 'not suffer a sorceress to live'? Or is the command still valid (as was apparently believed by those who perpetrated the different witch trials throughout history)?

To be fair the term used in the OT is not always rendered correctly. A sorceress or m'khashephah was a person who not only engaged in magical feats, but very destructive ones as has been so aptly detailed by Tsuzuki's adding of "murderer" to the meaning. So the passage advocated death to those sorcerers who engaged in destructive magic not any folk magic practitioner. In context the passage also decries other violent and destructive activities.

[TrashcanMan79]

To be fair the term used in the OT is not always rendered correctly. A sorceress or m'khashephah was a person who not only engaged in magical feats, but very destructive ones as has been so aptly detailed by Tsuzuki's adding of "murderer" to the meaning. So the passage advocated death to those sorcerers who engaged in destructive magic not any folk magic practitioner. In context the passage also decries other violent and destructive activities.

Very interesting. Am I to understand that the sorceresses condemned in the Exodus passage were, in fact, murderers?

[Dale]

It seems to be one of the Bible passages that Joseph Smith claims were corrupted.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/jst/14

"Thou shalt not suffer a

murderer

to live."

- Exodus 22:18 (Joseph Smith Translation)

I don't see the JST as always right in Joseph Smith's suggested translations. The KJV is quite correct in regards to Exodus 22:18.

[Dave Ellis]

I don't see the JST as always right in Joseph Smith's suggested translations. The KJV is quite correct in regards to Exodus 22:18.

The KJV isn't exactly wrong, it's just lost a little meaning. EnemyAce already pointed out that the word being translated, m'khashepah, refers to a woman using spells/curses to cause harm.

In the vulgate, the word was translated as maleficos, which is closer to the JST in that it means 'evil doer' and was used by early Christian theologians to denote one who murders through sorcery:

...[sorcerers] are they who are usually called malefici because of the greatness of their guilt. They throw the elements into commotion, disorder men's minds, and without any draught of poison they kill by the mere virulance of a charm.

Whence Lucan says [Pharsalia, VI.657]: "Even when polluted by no awful drink of poison, the mind is killed by enchantments." They summon demons, and dare to work juggleries that each one slays his enemies by evil arts. They use blood also, and victims, and often touch dead bodies.

Of course, in King James' day, that was what the word 'witch' unambiguously meant. Today however, it's probably necessary to take it a little further and make it clear that Exodus is referring specifically to evil, murdering sorceresses (I don't know why the masculine m'khaseph isn't mentioned) rather than just anybody who uses magic.

[Freedom in Truth]

I have only read up to about Post #80, but for the sake of communication I would like to ask that we back up a bit and lay some groundwork. I make an assumption when people tell me they hold the Bible as scripture. But through discussion with Mormons I am constantly re-reminded that though they claim the Bible to be scripture (as I do) we have little to no common ground. So I would like to ask us to answer some questions (especially TCM, structure cop, Dr. Steuss, Tsuzuki, and anyone else) -

1. Do you believe in the God revealed in the Bible and/or the additional Mormon scriptures?

2. Do you believe in an un-godly power? If so, what do you call it/him? (the Devil, demonic, demon, Lucifer, Satan, other)

3. Which power are you desiring to be contacting and for what purpose?

4. Considering the dictionary definition of occult to be â??supernatural practices and techniques to gain secret/hidden knowledgeâ?, why do you think the term is NOT generally associated with Christianity?

5. How would you define: divination, casting of spells, sorcery, and witchcraft? What is their power

source(s)? What is the purpose/goal of these activities? Do your definitions line up with the Bible and/or Mormon scriptures?

My thanks to everyone who takes the time to answer these questions.

[SlackTime]

I have only read up to about Post #80, but for the sake of communication I would like to ask that we back up a bit and lay some groundwork. I make an assumption when people tell me they hold the Bible as scripture. But through discussion with Mormons I am constantly re-reminded that though they claim the Bible to be scripture (as I do) we have little to no common ground. So I would like to ask us to answer some questions (especially TCM, structure cop, Dr. Steuss, Tsuzuki, and anyone else) -

1. Do you believe in the God revealed in the Bible and/or the additional Mormon scriptures?

2. Do you believe in an un-godly power? If so, what do you call it/him? (the Devil, demonic, demon, Lucifer, Satan, other)

3. Which power are you desiring to be contacting and for what purpose?

4. Considering the dictionary definition of occult to be â??supernatural practices and techniques to gain secret/hidden knowledgeâ?, why do you think the term is NOT generally associated with Christianity?

5. How would you define: divination, casting of spells, sorcery, and witchcraft? What is their power

source(s)? What is the purpose/goal of these activities? Do your definitions line up with the Bible and/or Mormon scriptures?

My thanks to everyone who takes the time to answer these questions.

AH, groundwork, what a concept!

1. Yes / Yes (There's a difference? Not in my scriptures)

2. Yes, Satan, Lucifer, Devil, Old Scratch

3. God, Christ,Holy Ghost, Godhead/Worship, Praise, Understanding, Knowledge, Forgiveness

4. I think it is associated with Christianity, or at least it was until VERY recent times. Though I admit that some prefer the term esoteric to occult... I think it became disassociated because in our scientifically "enlightened" western culture we no longer like to admit to believing in "supernatural" forces.

5. Definitions:

a. Divination: The art or act of foretelling future events or revealing occult knowledge by means of augury or an alleged supernatural agency. That supernatural entity could be God, and angel, the Devil, a demon, a ghost or spirit.

b. Casting of spells: The use of a formulaic process to create an outcome outside the explanation of natural forces. Such could be as simple as a prayer to influence God to alter conditions in your own or another's life, it could be a complex incantation expected to manipulate some nature spirit or naturalistic process, it could be a black spell to raise the devil himself.

c. Sorcery/Witchcraft: The influencing of events, objects, people and physical phenomena by mystical or paranormal (or supernatural) means.

d. Power sources: Some claim God, some claim Satan, Some claim natural "powers" of one sort or another. Some claim powers related to scripts, numbers, and "true" names.

e. Goals are as widely spread as the practitioners themselves.

f. Neither, I have defined my words in terms of meaning as our society and western culture generally defines them. Hopefully when the scriptures were translated into English, the translators used words accurately to represent what was meant. That isn't always possible, in that case they make the best connection that they can.

-SlackTime

[Tsuzuki]

1. Do you believe in the God revealed in the Bible and/or the additional Mormon scriptures?

Yes, yes, and also as revealed in the scriptures of many other religions.

2. Do you believe in an un-godly power? If so, what do you call it/him? (the Devil, demonic, demon, Lucifer, Satan, other)

Yes. Stupidity. It's the opposite of intelligence, and it's where Satan gets his power.

3. Which power are you desiring to be contacting and for what purpose?

The power associated with the principles of righteousness. Some call this God, others call it Tao. Chaos magicians call it Chaos. It is known by many names. The purpose in contacting it is to increase in righteousness.

4. Considering the dictionary definition of occult to be “supernatural practices and techniques to gain secret/hidden knowledge”, why do you think the term is NOT generally associated with Christianity?

It's been associated with Christianity for a very long time. Only recently have many Christians forgotten their roots.

5a. How would you define: divination, casting of spells, sorcery, and witchcraft?

Divination is the direct perception of the probabilities of events occurring, while spells, sorcery, and witchcraft are subsets of enchantment, which is the direct manipulation of the probabilities of events occurring. Divination and enchantment are two sides of the same coin. Some forms of divination and enchantment are better than others. Personally, I think that spells, sorcery, and witchcraft are sloppy.

5b. What is their power source(s)?

The power of divination and enchantment comes from the interplay between will and perception.

5c. What is the purpose/goal of these activities?

To be successful at anything I put my mind to.

5d. Do your definitions line up with the Bible and/or Mormon scriptures?

Probably not. I'm using definitions based on modern practice, particularly within the discipline of chaos magic.

[TrashcanMan79]

1. Do you believe in the God revealed in the Bible and/or the additional Mormon scriptures?

Very skeptical.

2. Do you believe in an un-godly power? If so, what do you call it/him? (the Devil, demonic, demon, Lucifer, Satan, other)

Very skeptical.

3. Which power are you desiring to be contacting and for what purpose?

N/A

4. Considering the dictionary definition of occult to be â??supernatural practices and techniques to gain secret/hidden knowledgeâ?, why do you think the term is NOT generally associated with Christianity?

A very good question, inasmuch as Christianity is perfectly described by that definition.

5. How would you define: divination, casting of spells, sorcery, and witchcraft? What is their power

source(s)? What is the purpose/goal of these activities? Do your definitions line up with the Bible and/or Mormon scriptures?

I would be happy to accept any reputable dictionary's definitions of these words.

My thanks to everyone who takes the time to answer these questions.

Thank you for asking them. A very good idea.

[Dave Ellis]

1. Do you believe in the God revealed in the Bible and/or the additional Mormon scriptures?

I'm a bit sceptical of some of the commands/actions attributed to God in the Old Testament, but on the whole, I have to say 'yes'.

2. Do you believe in an un-godly power? If so, what do you call it/him? (the Devil, demonic, demon, Lucifer, Satan, other)

As a Mormon, I believe the teaching that 1/3rd of the hosts of heaven rebelled and are cast out here. I believe they do have power, but not as much as some have supposed. Additionally, I believe there are many 'powers' that are natural and don't require supernatural forces to operate (the laws of physics, for instance.)

3. Which power are you desiring to be contacting and for what purpose?

God, obviously. Partly out of curiosity, mostly because if there's anything virtuous, lovely or of good report or praiseworthy, I seek after these things =)

4. Considering the dictionary definition of occult to be “supernatural practices and techniques to gain secret/hidden knowledge”, why do you think the term is NOT generally associated with Christianity?

I don't think that is THE dictionary definition. Occult refers to anything 'hidden' or beyond the natural grasp of man.

"

ecce enim veritatem dilexisti incerta et

occulta sapientiae

tuae manifestasti mihi

" (Psalms 50:

It can mean the things you refer to, but the same word is used here in the Vulgate to refer to the hidden mysteries of God. Part of the reason the word isn't employed often to refer to Christianity nowadays is that the Christian world views it in a negative light, and THEY are the ones who use the term most frequently.

5. How would you define: divination, casting of spells, sorcery, and witchcraft? What is their power source(s)? What is the purpose/goal of these activities? Do your definitions line up with the Bible and/or Mormon scriptures?

Divination is discovery through supernatural insight, from diuinare, "to be inspired by a god." It can refer to anything from dowsing to prophecy.

A spell is usually a set of spoken words, designed to produce some sort of metaphysical effect. It has acquired negative connotations, but the definition is broad enough to include everything from conjurations to the Lord's prayer.

Sorcery is the practice of influencing the natural world through supernatural means. It picked up negative associations quite early on, and most medieval Christian occultists drew a clear distinction between a "Magus" and a "Sorceror"

Witchcraft has no useful definition unless you provide the context for its usage. It can refer to ancient pagan practices, the demonic magic of medieval malefici, or the works of modern Wicca.

The 'power sources' (where they exist at all) are as diverse as the practices themselves. It would be silly to talk about sources without first singling out the specific practice you're referring to. The goals are equally varied and defy simple definition. If you want to get an idea of just how diverse magic can be, try getting ahold of Forbidden Rites by Richard Kieckhefer, and Conjuring Spirits edited by Claire Fanger, both from the excellent Magic in History academic series. This isn't just Mormon word-play, Magic is an incredibly complex field of study and scholars constantly debate the various definitions proposed.

Personally, I don't think the scriptures provide any workable definitions. The popular Christian usages simply don't work for most of the historical forms of magic.

[grego]

QUOTE(Freedom in Truth @ May 9 2007, 01:08 PM)

Deuteronomy 18:10-11 â??Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.â?

I like this definition I found at http://www.messiahtruth.com/messianic.pdf -

Under Occult -

Divination . The art of obtaining secret knowledge, especially of the future; a pagan corruption/counterpart of prophecy. Inspirational divination is by demonic power, and is condemned by Scriptureâ??Devarim 1[Deuteronomy] 8:10-12.

I would say Occult practices in general are attempts to obtain â??secret knowledgeâ? and are the ungodly counterpart of prophecy. One is not receiving from God but from a demonic power. That is why God prohibited these practices.

structurecop wrote:

I challenge you to present any compelling evidence that biblical prophets operated under a power that is anything other than "occult" in nature. Whether the knowledge comes from God or another source is totally subjective. Ezekiel clearly received some revelations that ended up being false, so his knowledge coming from Godly sources should already be debatable.

Let me help you on your way: ...

structurecop,

I fail to see how any of your examples have anything to do with what you link them to.

-=-=-=

Freedom in Truth wrote:

The occult is a pagan corruption/counterpart of prophecy. That would mean God wouldnâ??t be the power source. Was God JSâ??s power source? If so, then does the LDS church embrace JSâ??s â??occultâ? practices, claiming they were God-directed? I donâ??t think so, for the treasure-seeking setting of the First Vision account was removed.

If God wasn't the source for everything that happens, does that necessarily mean that Satan is the source? Or are there degrees and mixes, and natural phenomena to consider also? If Satan were the source, the LDS church doesn't, and wouldn't.

CFR on the "t-s setting of the FV"...

Also,

Deuteronomy 18:10-11 â??Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.â?

So "divination or sorcery" seem to be related; but if you stick with our modern divination (looking for water, etc.), how is that even related to sorcery? I think it's talking about something else.

As I said in Post #75, in my experience the only people I have met who don't understand the word occult to be non-Christian, non-godly, are Mormons. How do you account for this?

Because it can mean more than one thing, and the original meaning was not the current "demonic" most Westerners would give as the definition, but "hidden".

Here's from Webster's 1828 dictionary:

OCCULT', a. [L. occultus, occulo; ob and celo, to conceal.]

*Hidden from the eye or understanding; invisible; secret; unknown; undiscovered; undetected; as the occult qualities of matter.

*The occult sciences are magic, necromancy, &c.

*Occult lines, in geometry, are such as are drawn with the compasses or a pencil, and are scarcely visible.

See how the first and second definition differ? Note that Webster was about as conservative Christian as could be, too.

-=-=-=

structurecop wrote:

So even a great prophet like Ezekiel can be misled as to where his prophecies are coming from? I will keep that in mind.

CFR.

Again, you would be hard pressed to determine what is and isn't condoned by God. What if the writers of Deuteronomy were influenced by the Devil when they wrote that prohibition?

Going out on a small limb here... Why don't we just say how do you know anything in the Bible is from God?

Why do you follow the ancient Near Eastern pattern of invoking deities by calling out and doing things in their name? You initiate prayer.

Because I follow the example of Adam and the teachings of Jesus, not an "ancient NE..."

-=-=-=

Now, on to where this should have all started:

I have only read up to about Post #80, but for the sake of communication I would like to ask that we back up a bit and lay some groundwork...

1. Do you believe in the God revealed in the Bible and/or the additional Mormon scriptures?

2. Do you believe in an un-godly power? If so, what do you call it/him? (the Devil, demonic, demon, Lucifer, Satan, other)

3. Which power are you desiring to be contacting and for what purpose?

4. Considering the dictionary definition of occult to be â??supernatural practices and techniques to gain secret/hidden knowledgeâ?, why do you think the term is NOT generally associated with Christianity?

5. How would you define: divination, casting of spells, sorcery, and witchcraft? What is their power

source(s)? What is the purpose/goal of these activities? Do your definitions line up with the Bible and/or Mormon scriptures?

My thanks to everyone who takes the time to answer these questions.

1. Yes.

2. Yes. All you wrote! This is a central LDS belief.

3. Me, personally? God.

4. Because of a few reasons--none of which I'm sure, but you asked for why I think that way... I think because there can be a fine line, for those that practice and those that observe. I am an occultist in Webster's first sense of the word, but definitley not the second. To an observer, however, it might seem like that. Am I operating by God, hidden man/ natural laws, or the devil? If I were in Europe during the MA, and I didn't believe in the RC Church, yet I could do some mysterious things, wouldn't most assume an ungodly man like me got it from Satan?

5. I follow you here. I think it often is a matter of intent, object of worship and power/ knowledge-granter, etc.

So, what evidence do you have that JS practiced occultic ("demonic") arts? Those few quotes, or is there more?

From the Willard Chase Account - http://www.mormoninformation.com/wchase.htm

â??I became acquainted with the Smith family, known as the authors of the Mormon Bible, in the year 1820. At that time, they were engaged in the money digging business, which they followed until the latter part of the season of 1827.â?

Ok, "the Smith family" wasn't "the authors of the MB". Who is "they"? So they were continual business from 1820-1827?

â??In the month of June, 1827, Joseph Smith, Sen., related to me the following story: "That some years ago, a spirit had appeared to Joseph his son, in a vision, and informed him that in a certain place there was a record on plates of gold, and that he was the person that must obtain them, and this he must do in the following manner: On the 22d of September, he must repair to the place where was deposited this manuscript, dressed in black clothes, and riding a black horse with a switch tail, and demand the book in a certain name, and after obtaining it, he must go directly away, and neither lay it down nor look behind him. They accordingly fitted out Joseph with a suit of black clothes and borrowed a black horse. He repaired to the place of deposit and demanded the book, which was in a stone box, unsealed, and so near the top of the ground that he could see one end of it, and raising it up, took out the book of gold; but fearing some one might discover where he got it, he laid it down to place back the top stone, as he found it; and turning round, to his surprise there was no book in sight. He again opened the box, and in it saw the book, and attempted to take it out, but was hindered. He saw in the box something like a toad, which soon assumed the appearance of a man, and struck him on the side of his head. --Not being discouraged at trifles, he again stooped down and strove to take the book, when the spirit struck him again, and knocked him three or four rods, and hurt him prodigiously. After recovering from his fright, he enquired why he could not obtain the plates; to which the spirit made reply, because you have not obeyed your orders. He then enquired when he could have them, and was answered thus: come one year from this day, and bring with you your oldest brother, and you shall have them. This spirit, he said was the spirit of the prophet who wrote this book, and who was sent to Joseph Smith, to make known these things to him. Before the expiration of the year, his oldest brother died; which the old man said was an accidental providence!â?

Ah, the toad story! A man's spirit hides as a toad inside the box, then transforms to a man? Much of the story is on, but there are a few parts I question.

From Gleanings by the Way (Clark) - http://solomonspalding.com/docs1/1842ClkB.htm#pg216a

p. 225 Before I proceed to Martin's narrative, however, I would remark in passing, that Jo Smith, who has since been the chief prophet of the Mormons, and was one of the most prominent ostensible actors in the first scenes of this drama, belonged to a very shiftless family near Palmyra. They lived a sort of vagrant life, and were principally known as money-diggers. Jo from a boy appeared dull and utterly destitute of genius; but his father claimed for him a sort of second sight, a power to look into the depths of the earth, and discover where its precious treasures were hid. Consequently long before the idea of a GOLDEN BIBLE entered their minds, in their excursions for money-digging, which I believe usually occurred in the night, that they might conceal from others the knowledge of the place where they struck upon treasures, Jo used to be usually their guide, putting into a hat a peculiar stone he had through which he looked to decide where they should begin to dig.

A "shiftless family"? What, how? Being a farmer is living a "vagrant life"? They cleared and farmed how much land and supported how many children, yet primarily were money-diggers? (Well, they just MUST have been successful!) Whoops! "Jo is dull and utterly destitute of genius"--throw a wrench in that cog! Yet he pulled off the BoM, a Church, and all that. So, God, Satan, or an unexplained metamorphosis? "In the night"? People couldn't see the lights, here the voices, and see the dug-up earth? And which bank did they take their gold to? And how many bankers attest to that? Or which pirates did they trade for goods with?

...

A chest! Wait--silver! Wait--someone ran off the treasure sight in the middle of the night, found a black dog, brought it back, and killed it? Wait--kill one of you! No dice, ok, nothing... And no one said, "He wanted to kill me!" or anything like that? He wanted to kill his father or brother--stick that with Dan Vogel's "it's so important to keep the family together" and you get some huge cognitive dissonance!

FiT, really, do any of these accounts really make sense, as told?

[redwave]

"Everything that is true is beautiful. The only vanity under the sun is error and falsehood. Even pain and death are beautiful, because they are the work which purifies and the transfiguration which delivers. The fleeting forms are true because they are manifestations of the power and beauty of the eternal. Love is true. Woman is holy and her conception is immaculate. True knowledge never deceives; reasonable faith is not an illusion. A cheerful, sympathetic laugh is an act of faith, hope and charity. To go in dread of God is to fail to recognize Him; it is only error which should be dreaded. A man may do anything he wants to do when all he wants to do is justice. He may even, if he so wishes, rush into wrongdoing but he will be dashed to pieces if he does. God reveals Himself to man, in man and by man. His true worship is Charity. Dogmas and rites alter and succeed one another; charity does not change and its power is eternal.

There is only one sole and veritable power on earth as there is in Heaven: it is that of goodness. The righteous are the only masters of the world. The world is in upheaval when they suffer. It is transformed when they die. The oppression of justice is the compression of a force far more terrible than that of high explosives. It is not the masses who raise revolutions, but the kings. The just person is inviolable, woe to him who would touch him! The Caesars have fallen to cinders, burnt by the blood of the martyrs. Whatever a righteous man wishes is approved by God. Whatever a righteous man writes, God signs, and it is an everlasting testament.

The great clue to the riddle of the sphinx is God in man and in nature. Those who separate man from God separate him from nature, because nature is full of God and recoils in horror from atheism. Those who separate man from nature are like sons who would honour their father by cutting off his head. God is the head of nature, so to speak, she would not exist without Him, He would not manifest Himself without her.

God is our Father, but nature is our mother. 'Honour thy father and thy mother,' says the Ten Commandments, 'that thy days may be long in the land.' Emmanuel, God is with you: this is the sacred word of the initiates who go only by the name of Brothers of the Rosy Cross (Rosicrucians). It is in this sense that Jesus Christ could call Himself the Son of God, and God Himself, without blasphemy. It is in this sense that He wants us only to make one with Him as He only makes one with His Father, so that regenerated humanity will realize in this world the great arcanum of the man-God.

Let us love God in one another, for God will never show Himself to us except in one another. Everything lovable about us comes from God in us. God is all there is to be loved, and it is only God whom one loves when one knows how to love truly.

God is light. He does not love darkness. Therefore, if we long to feel God within us, we must let the light into our souls. The tree of Knowledge is not a tree of death except for Satan and his apostles. To the superstitious it is the Manchineel tree, but to us it is the tree of life.

Then we shall no longer say, like stupid slaves, 'This is good because we have been ordered to do it and have been promised a reward and that is bad because we have been told not to do it on pain of chastisement', but we shall say, 'Let us do this because we know that it is good and refrain from doing that because we know that it is evil.'

And thus will be realized the promise of the symbolic serpent:

'You will be as gods, knowing good and evil.'"

- Eliphas Levi,

The Great Secret: or Occultism Unveiled

Eliphas Levi. Ya, there is a great source for knowledge. How do you feel about this quote from him?

Who is the god of masonry?

â??What is more absurd or more impious than to attribute the name of Lucifer to the devil, that is, to personified evil. The intellectual Lucifer is the spirit of intelligence and love; it is the paraclete [ an advocate] ; it is the holy spirit where the physical Lucifer is the great angel of universal magnetism.â?

[ Eliphas Levi, the mysteries of magic, a digest of the writings of Eliphas Levi]

So Lucifer is the Holy Spirit and the advocate. I donâ??t know about you or anyone else but my advocate is Jesus Christ.

Do you also like H.P. Blavatsky?

â??Lucifer represents..life..thought..progress..civilization..liberty..independence..Lucifer is the Logos..the serpent, the saviour.â?

That quote is from secret doctrine by Helena Petrova Blavatsky. Volume 2.

â??It is satan who is the god of our planet and the only god. Volume 6.

How about Albert Pike, 33 degree freemason. Head of the Scottish rite of freemasonry. A quote from morals and dogma, page 321.

â??Lucifer the light bearer! Strange and mysterious name to the spirit of darkness! Lucifer, the son of the morning! Is it he who bears the light, and with itâ??s splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual or selfish souls? Doubt it not!â?

[Tsuzuki]

Eliphas Levi. Ya, there is a great source for knowledge. How do you feel about this quote from him?

Who is the god of masonry?

â??What is more absurd or more impious than to attribute the name of Lucifer to the devil, that is, to personified evil. The intellectual Lucifer is the spirit of intelligence and love; it is the paraclete [ an advocate] ; it is the holy spirit where the physical Lucifer is the great angel of universal magnetism.â?

[ Eliphas Levi, the mysteries of magic, a digest of the writings of Eliphas Levi]

So Lucifer is the Holy Spirit and the advocate. I donâ??t know about you or anyone else but my advocate is Jesus Christ.

"et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem cui bene facitis adtendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat et

lucifer

oriatur in cordibus vestris"

- 2 Peter 1:19 (Latin Vulgate)

"We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the

day star

(latin: "lucifer") arise in your hearts:"

"Lucifer" has been another name for Jesus Christ ever since Christianity came in contact with the Latin language.

Do you also like H.P. Blavatsky?

â??Lucifer represents..life..thought..progress..civilization..liberty..independence..Lucifer is the Logos..the serpent, the saviour.â?

That quote is from secret doctrine by Helena Petrova Blavatsky. Volume 2.

Haven't really read much of Blavatsky, and what I know of her she strikes me as a charlatan, but that seems right on the surface.

â??It is satan who is the god of our planet and the only god. Volume 6.

I would have to read that in context before I make judgment.

How about Albert Pike, 33 degree freemason. Head of the Scottish rite of freemasonry. A quote from morals and dogma, page 321.

â??Lucifer the light bearer! Strange and mysterious name to the spirit of darkness! Lucifer, the son of the morning! Is it he who bears the light, and with itâ??s splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual or selfish souls? Doubt it not!â?

I know less about Albert Pike than I do about Blavatsky, but on the surface that seems right when you factor in 2 Peter 1:19.

Now, while you're in the market for seemingly scandalous statements, I've got some of my own you may be interested in.

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=15245

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=20573

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]

Yes. Stupidity. It's the opposite of intelligence, and it's where Satan gets his power.

[...]

This reminded me of...

Hugh often stated that "if you take yourself seriously, you won't take the gospel seriously and the other way around." One of my favorite examples of this comes from Curtis Wright, who was a graduate assistant for Hugh. One time Wright came into Hugh's office and found him there absorbed in reading the Book of Mormon and laughing. Wright asked Hugh what was so funny, and Hugh replied that he had found an error in the Book of Mormon. "You did, huh?" Wright responded. "Yes," Hugh stated and handed the scriptures to Wright pointing to Alma 42:10 which says that "man is carnal, sensual and devilish." "What's the matter with that?" demanded Wright. Hugh responded, "They left out stupid." Hugh's delightful sense of humor spared no one, least of all himself. He was the first to laugh at himself. "Nobody takes me seriously," wrote Hugh to his son, "which has been my salvation."

Life, the Church, and the Cosmos

[Tsuzuki]

This reminded me of...

Hugh often stated that "if you take yourself seriously, you won't take the gospel seriously and the other way around." One of my favorite examples of this comes from Curtis Wright, who was a graduate assistant for Hugh. One time Wright came into Hugh's office and found him there absorbed in reading the Book of Mormon and laughing. Wright asked Hugh what was so funny, and Hugh replied that he had found an error in the Book of Mormon. "You did, huh?" Wright responded. "Yes," Hugh stated and handed the scriptures to Wright pointing to Alma 42:10 which says that "man is carnal, sensual and devilish." "What's the matter with that?" demanded Wright. Hugh responded, "They left out stupid." Hugh's delightful sense of humor spared no one, least of all himself. He was the first to laugh at himself. "Nobody takes me seriously," wrote Hugh to his son, "which has been my salvation."

Life, the Church, and the Cosmos

[Dave Ellis]

How about Albert Pike, 33 degree freemason. Head of the Scottish rite of freemasonry. A quote from morals and dogma, page 321.

â??Lucifer the light bearer! Strange and mysterious name to the spirit of darkness! Lucifer, the son of the morning! Is it he who bears the light, and with itâ??s splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual or selfish souls? Doubt it not!â?

I like the paragraph just before the part you quoted:

"Therefore faint not, nor be weary in well-doing! Be not discouraged at men's apathy, nor disgusted with their follies, nor tired of their indifference! Care not for returns and results; but

see only what there is to do, and do it, leaving the results to God!

Soldier of the Cross! Sworn Knight of Justice, Truth, and Toleration! Good Knight and True! be patient and work!"

I don't really see how Albert Pike is relevant to this thread, but the section you quote from is part of his 'Kabalistic' interpretation of Revelations. The line immediately before it gives you a clue to his stance:

"The Apocalypse is ... the Apotheosis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone, and

despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer.

Lucifer, the

Light-bearer

! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness!"

I'm no expert on Pike, but skimming through Morals and Dogma make one thing pretty clear: Pike isn't a diabolist by any stretch of the imagination. He doesn't seem to give much credence to the classical portrayal of Satan, but often refers to him in clearly negative ways, such as his description of hypocrisy as "Satan attempting to clothe himself in the angelic vesture of light."

Also, in this same section, Pike declares that "Jesus is the Word Incarnate" and repeatedly speaks of Christ throughout the book. He also makes some interesting comments on God and the powers of good:

"To every Mason,

the Infinite Justice and Benevolence of God give ample assurance that Evil will ultimately be dethroned

, and the Good, the True, and the Beautiful reign triumphant and eternal. It teaches, as it feels and knows, that Evil, and Pain, and Sorrow exist as part of a wise and beneficent plan, all the parts of which work together under God's eye to a result which shall be perfection."

Pike basically says that he doesn't know if 'Satan' really exists, but whatever the source of evil is, it will ultimately be defeated by good. Just in case you still have doubts, let me quote the same author you cited for Eliphas Levi, Arthur Waite:

"I can find no Mason, of what grade or rite soever, who has ever heard of Pikeâ??s Sepher dâ??Hebarim, his book called Apadno, or lectures in which he imparted extracts unacknowledged from

[SlackTime]

Aside from them both being Masons, I don't really see what bearing he has on Joseph Smith either.

-Dave

Early in this thread was expressed the idea that Christianity was always oppositional to anything occult, or in other words that the occult and Christianity were dynamic opposites. I think it has been fairly well documented that Christianity has always had (at least as early as the 2nd Century CE) an occultic following.

And that Occult is not equivalent to Satan worship.

-SlackTime

[redwave]

I like the paragraph just before the part you quoted:

"Therefore faint not, nor be weary in well-doing! Be not discouraged at men's apathy, nor disgusted with their follies, nor tired of their indifference! Care not for returns and results; but

see only what there is to do, and do it, leaving the results to God!

Soldier of the Cross! Sworn Knight of Justice, Truth, and Toleration! Good Knight and True! be patient and work!"

I don't really see how Albert Pike is relevant to this thread, but the section you quote from is part of his 'Kabalistic' interpretation of Revelations. The line immediately before it gives you a clue to his stance:

"The Apocalypse is ... the Apotheosis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone, and

despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer.

Lucifer, the

Light-bearer

! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness!"

I'm no expert on Pike, but skimming through Morals and Dogma make one thing pretty clear: Pike isn't a diabolist by any stretch of the imagination. He doesn't seem to give much credence to the classical portrayal of Satan, but often refers to him in clearly negative ways, such as his description of hypocrisy as "Satan attempting to clothe himself in the angelic vesture of light."

Also, in this same section, Pike declares that "Jesus is the Word Incarnate" and repeatedly speaks of Christ throughout the book. He also makes some interesting comments on God and the powers of good:

"To every Mason,

the Infinite Justice and Benevolence of God give ample assurance that Evil will ultimately be dethroned

, and the Good, the True, and the Beautiful reign triumphant and eternal. It teaches, as it feels and knows, that Evil, and Pain, and Sorrow exist as part of a wise and beneficent plan, all the parts of which work together under God's eye to a result which shall be perfection."

Pike basically says that he doesn't know if 'Satan' really exists, but whatever the source of evil is, it will ultimately be defeated by good. Just in case you still have doubts, let me quote the same author you cited for Eliphas Levi, Arthur Waite:

"I can find no Mason, of what grade or rite soever, who has ever heard of Pikeâ??s Sepher dâ??Hebarim, his book called Apadno, or lectures in which he imparted extracts unacknowledged from

[Tsuzuki]

Freemasonry from the outside or to the lower levels of the organization looks like a reputable org. It is when you enter the higher levels it seems to get a little flakey to say the least. Here is another quote from Albert Pike:

â??That which we must say to a crowd is - We worship a god, but it is the god that one adores without superstition. To you Sovereign Grand Inspectors General, we say this, that you may repeat it to the brethren of the 32nd, 31st, and 30th degrees- The Masonic religion should be, by all of us initiates of the high degrees, maintained in the purity of the Luciferean doctrine. If Lucifer were not God, would Adonay {another name for Jesus} whose deeds prove his cruelty, perfidy and hatred of man, barbarism and repulsion for science, would Adonay and his priests calumniate him? Yes Lucifer is God, and unfortunately Adonay is also God. For the eternal law is that there is no light without shade, no beauty without ugliness, no white without black, for the absolute can only exist as two gods: darkness being necessary to the statute, and the brake to the locomotive. Thus, the doctrine of Satanism is a heresy; and the true and pure philosophical religion is the belief in Lucifer, the equal of Adonay; but Lucifer, God of light and God of good is struggling for humanity against Adonay, the God of darkness and evil.â?

Instructions to the 23 Supreme Councils of the World, July 14 1889. Recorded by A. C. De La Rive in La Femme ET Iâ??Enfant dans la Franc Maconnerie Universelle on page 588.

That quote you are using is a from a hoax.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxil_hoax#The_Luciferian_Quote

[Dave Ellis]

Just curious, are you a 33 degree mason/ shriner? How did you obtain the book Morals and Dogma? I know it is only given to 33 degree masons. Sure, you can get one on Amozon .com, or pieces of it off the internet, but it will not be the real deal.

I'm Australian, the lodges here aren't really affiliated with US Masonry, but there are two copies of 'Morals and Dogma' in the reference library. I'm not a Mason at all (considered joining a couple of times, never got around to it) but I do have some very good friends who are Masons, including a former Provincial Grand Master of Lincoln in the UK.

Morals and Dogma isn't exactly a secret text; it was designed for all the levels of Scottish Rite (not just 33rd degree as you claim) and, since it's over a century old and out of print, it can now be found in full on the internet at places like Project Gutenberg. If, when you say these versions are 'not the real deal', you are claiming there is some sort of secret, alternate copy of the text full of dark secrets, I would like to see some evidence for it.

Joseph Smith, to my knowledge, never undertook any of the Scottish Rite degrees. He was raised to the sublime degree in a Blue Lodge, which made him a 3rd degree Mason (3rd degree is the 'highest' level, not 33rd). The chances of Joseph having read Morals and Dogma are extremely low, given that he had been dead for nearly 30 years by the time it was published (death tends to impair one's reading ability). In fact, Pike himself didn't even become a Mason until 1851. Joseph Smith, unless he was an undisclosed owner of his very own TARDIS, certainly wasn't aware of any secret instructions from Pike.

-Dave

[Tsuzuki]

Joseph Smith, unless he was an undisclosed owner of his very own TARDIS, certainly wasn't aware of any secret instructions from Pike.

Although that would certainly explain a lot if he did have one.

[Dave Ellis]

Although that would certainly explain a lot if he did have one.

Can you imagine the congregation singing "Hail to the Time Lord"?