Joseph Smith And The Occult

[cdowis]

Do you have a link to that discussion? Thanks!

do a search in this forum with the user name "rabanes"

[No Touch]

Is there anyone besides me who sees Joseph Smith's involvement in occultism as a positive thing?

Here. We should make a big deal about expecting folks to multiply their talents. Here was Joseph's - in divination and treasure seeking. These prepared him for his work, and he was blessed for it.

Occult is a loaded term. If we take it to simply mean searching for hidden truth, then apply it to Joseph, and lets agree that this shouldn't damn him.

If you want to ascribe Satanic connotations to the term, go ahead. But then you cannot apply it to Joseph Smith.

[proofoflife]

Here. We should make a big deal about expecting folks to multiply their talents. Here was Joseph's - in divination and treasure seeking. These prepared him for his work, and he was blessed for it.

Occult is a loaded term. If we take it to simply mean searching for hidden truth, then apply it to Joseph, and lets agree that this shouldn't damn him.

If you want to ascribe Satanic connotations to the term, go ahead. But then you cannot apply it to Joseph Smith.

Well now I would not go that far. JS did some interesting things after falling onto the notion of G-d and continue to take part in some rather interesting actions after.

[Tsuzuki]

A somewhat sanitized definition.

I think for most, especially Christians, "the occult" implies mixing with Satan and his ilk for purposes of worship, knowledge, money, power, or the sorts.

Those implications are false.

[Tsuzuki]

Occult is a loaded term. If we take it to simply mean searching for hidden truth, then apply it to Joseph, and lets agree that this shouldn't damn him.

If you want to ascribe Satanic connotations to the term, go ahead. But then you cannot apply it to Joseph Smith.

Precisely. And I'm all for taking the term back from those who would defame it with their slander.

[SlackTime]

Well, I'm into occult because I'm a very accomplished water witch. I have used willow and bamboo, I have also used the metal wire style.

When I was a kid a neighbor kid brought by a ouija board, and we played with it until my parents banned it from the house... Maybe I was possessed by a devil then and that's what makes me a successful water witch!

-SlackTime

[structurecop]

Have you read "ONE NATION UNDER GODS" by Richard Abanes? He has a lot of references you can look up for yourself to see if they are worthy of consideration.

Scoff.

[proofoflife]

Well, I'm into occult because I'm a very accomplished water witch. I have used willow and bamboo, I have also used the metal wire style.

When I was a kid a neighbor kid brought by a ouija board, and we played with it until my parents banned it from the house... Maybe I was possessed by a devil then and that's what makes me a successful water witch!

-SlackTime

I use to LOVE the ouija board when I was a child. Of course it was well hidden as were all of our actions while interacting with it. The good old days when one could play with something like this and not have to answer for their actions. I miss those times!

[auteur55]

I think sometimes we forget that Joseph was a young kid at this time. Think back to when you were 15 and try to remember how many dumb things you did.

Joseph even apologized for his behavior at this time. Acknowledging that is was unbecoming of one called of God.

[grego]

Still waiting for actual facts and evidence.

[Tsuzuki]

Still waiting for actual facts and evidence.

That depends on which definition of "occult" we are using. If we are using the correct, non-loaded, definition, than the existence of the church is evidence enough.

[It occurs to me . . .]

I think sometimes we forget that Joseph was a young kid at this time. Think back to when you were 15 and try to remember how many dumb things you did.

Joseph even apologized for his behavior at this time. Acknowledging that is was unbecoming of one called of God.

Which would be fine if he stopped when he was 15, but his occult activities continued up into his 20's.

[Tsuzuki]

Which would be fine if he stopped when he was 15, but his occult activities continued up into his 20's.

I'm still waiting for someone to point out why this should be viewed as intrinsically negative.

[No Touch]

I'm still waiting for someone to point out why this should be viewed as intrinsically negative.

It just is, you know?

[Tsuzuki]

It just is, you know?

"Every use of the word 'is' conceals a loss of information and a reinforcement of narrow views and prejudice."

- Peter J. Carroll,

PsyberMagick

[No Touch]

"Every use of the word 'is' conceals a loss of information and a reinforcement of narrow views and prejudice."

- Peter J. Carroll,

PsyberMagick

or sarcasm

[freakin a man]

A somewhat sanitized definition.

I think for most, especially Christians, "the occult" implies mixing with Satan and his ilk for purposes of worship, knowledge, money, power, or the sorts.

I find that many christians in Yahoo Chat have not seem to picked up a dictionary in months or years regarding many words they use. So what many Christians think is not really important other than to show that they have not discovered the dictionary yet.

From Dictionary.com

1. of or pertaining to magic, astrology, or any system claiming use or knowledge of secret or supernatural powers or agencies.

2. beyond the range of ordinary knowledge or understanding; mysterious.

3. secret; disclosed or communicated only to the initiated.

4. hidden from view.

5. (in early science) a. not apparent on mere inspection but discoverable by experimentation.

b. of a nature not understood, as physical qualities.

c. dealing with such qualities; experimental: occult science.

6. Medicine/Medical. present in amounts too small to be visible: a chemical test to detect occult blood in the stool.

â??noun 7. the supernatural or supernatural agencies and affairs considered as a whole (usually prec. by the).

8. occult studies or sciences (usually prec. by the).

â??verb (used with object) 9. to block or shut off (an object) from view; hide.

10. Astronomy. to hide (a celestial body) by occultation.

â??verb (used without object) 11. to become hidden or shut off from view.

Nope not Satan but it does say supernatural powers. Can not God's power be considered "supernatural"?

[Tsuzuki]

or sarcasm

But not facetiousness.

[Freedom in Truth]

In another thread, a non-Mormon poster wrote,

I find many if not all Mormons unwilling to really look at what they believe.

When I took exception to this statement, the poster offered as a case in point the following:

[T]here is strong evidence that JS practiced occult activities before and after the writing of the BoM. I have met Mormons who donâ??t know this, who deny this, and who explain it by saying that everyone did it (which somehow makes it O-K I guess). I think I would rather a Mormon say, â??Yeah, JS was involved in occult practices . . . but I donâ??t care. He is still Godâ??s prophet to me.â? That seems more honest to me.

A few more posts on this subject in a very general way followed, but none that actually addressed:

1) What are the facts in re Joseph Smith's occult practices?

2) What is the evidence of Joseph Smith's occult practices?

3) What is the most plausible interpretation of the evidence?

A topic search of this board indicated that this has been discussed before, but alas, many of these threads have been closed. I have started this new thread to find out for myself if the non-Mormon poster is correct in the assertion that 'there is strong evidence that JS practiced occult activities before and after the writing of the BoM,' and, if true, to see what is or should be the appropriate apologetic response. Any links to articles by Mormon authors addressing this issue, as well as any comments or insights by board members, is welcome and much appreciated. Thanks!

As I just got here I realize the first thing I (and we) need to do is define "occult".

[Freedom in Truth]

Well thats actually a interesting spin. But I would add to it the fact that many, if not all, set Religions are Occult like in their activity and roots. However, this is not addressing the question asked to start with. The thought that I come up with when reading this question is not so much about JS occult like ties and movements before the BoM was created, but how in fact the BoM came about.

Could you clarify - "not so much about JS occult like ties and movements before the BoM was created, but how in fact the BoM came about."

I'm not sure what you're thinking here. Thanks.

[Freedom in Truth]

Try reading Mike Quinn's "Mormonism and the Magic World View", BUT check every reference, don't believe any conclusion or opinion without checking it out and evaluating it yourself, first.

There is indeed strong evidence that JSJr. was involved in the occult. It caused me to re-evaluate what 'occult' is, and whether it's good or bad.

What a surprise to find that when I give a priesthood blessing by virtue of the Melchizedek priesthood, it qualifies as 'magic'. Hah. Truly.

It's a can of worms, yes, but the the Holy Spirit guide, and you will profit thereby. IMO.

HiJolly

I find it interesting that you chose to re-evauate what "occult" is and not to re-evaluate JS. Why?

[No Touch]

I find it interesting that you chose to re-evauate what "occult" is and not to re-evaluate JS. Why?

One is a word (subject to the implications and meanings of the person saying and the person hearing). The other is a man, a real person who lived and died in the real world. He cannot be redefined, and so previous evaluations hold. There also a question of how this evaluation is made.

But anyway, the term occult is stupid if you're not going to begin the discussion with a clear definition of it. It serves only to rouse unfavorable emotions from people who are told "occult = bad" their whole lives.

[structurecop]

I find it interesting that you chose to re-evauate what "occult" is and not to re-evaluate JS. Why?

Because the definition and perception of "occult" is a social and cultural construct and Joseph Smith's contributions in the form of the Book of Mormon and the Church is a matter of historical investigation.

[Freedom in Truth]

The law and it's rules which prevented divination are no longer current laws for Christians.(Deut. 18:10) How did Joseph Smith violate an old law that has been abolished? The law and it's outdated rules have passed away.

Who is higher in authority Jesus or the law? If Jesus decided to overlook Joseph Smith's involvement with magical practices why can't I? The Bible isn't my final authority in faith or practice modern revelation is. I don't happen to share Evangelical prejudices towards Joseph Smith's past.

How do you understand Matthew 5:17-19?

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Here is the list from Deuteronomy that is prohibited -

Deuteronomy 18:10-11 â??Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.â?

It looks like the NT is consistent with the OT - here are 2 examples -

Galatians 5:19-21a â??The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like.â?

Revelation 21:8 â??But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liarsâ??their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Do you agree?

Did Jesus decide to overlook JSâ??s involvement with magical practices? How do you know? Do you think itâ??s O-K with Jesus if we are involved with demonic forces? (pease see my next post)

[Freedom in Truth]

Deuteronomy 18:10-11 â??Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.â?

I like this definition I found at http://www.messiahtruth.com/messianic.pdf -

Under Occult -

Divination . The art of obtaining secret knowledge, especially of the future; a pagan corruption/counterpart of prophecy. Inspirational divination is by demonic power, and is condemned by Scriptureâ??Devarim 1[Deuteronomy] 8:10-12.

I would say Occult practices in general are attempts to obtain â??secret knowledgeâ? and are the ungodly counterpart of prophecy. One is not receiving from God but from a demonic power. That is why God prohibited these practices.