Joseph Smith And The Occult

[Freedom in Truth]

There is strong evidence that many Religions were founded within the Occult line. But one does have to admit, that JS, along with many others, did hold some occult ties prior to their onset. If we were to pull scriptures from the Bible we would find that these types of ties, no matter how we re-evalute what we could consider to be occult like activity would not have been permitted. Putting that behind us what one does have to ask is how much of ones past conditioning follows us into new thoughts and movements. Again I bring up the "fact" on how JS accepted the revelation of the BoM and how its creation came to be.

Are you saying that JS stopped his occult practices at some point? If so, when would that point be? And if so, did he ever denounce them?

[structurecop]

Deuteronomy 18:10-11 â??Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.â?

I like this definition I found at http://www.messiahtruth.com/messianic.pdf -

Under Occult -

Divination . The art of obtaining secret knowledge, especially of the future; a pagan corruption/counterpart of prophecy. Inspirational divination is by demonic power, and is condemned by Scriptureâ??Devarim 1[Deuteronomy] 8:10-12.

I would say Occult practices in general are attempts to obtain â??secret knowledgeâ? and are the ungodly counterpart of prophecy. One is not receiving from God but from a demonic power. That is why God prohibited these practices.

I challenge you to present any compelling evidence that biblical prophets operated under a power that is anything other than "occult" in nature. Whether the knowledge comes from God or another source is totally subjective. Ezekiel clearly received some revelations that ended up being false, so his knowledge coming from Godly sources should already be debatable.

Let me help you on your way:

who practices divination

Genesis 44:4 They had not gone far from the city when Joseph said to his steward, "Go after those men at once, and when you catch up with them, say to them, 'Why have you repaid good with evil? 5 Isn't this the cup my master drinks from and also uses for divination? This is a wicked thing you have done.' "

or sorcery

" 19 The LORD said to Moses, "Tell Aaron, 'Take your staff and stretch out your hand over the waters of Egyptâ??over the streams and canals, over the ponds and all the reservoirs'-and they will turn to blood. Blood will be everywhere in Egypt, even in the wooden buckets and stone jars."

"Raise your staff; stretch your hand over the sea and split it. The Children of Israel will come into the Sea on dry ground. I am even now strengthening the heart of Egypt, and they will come after them..."

2 Kings 2:10: Elijah answered the captain, "If I am a man of God, may fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty men!" Then fire fell from heaven and consumed the captain and his men.

interprets omens

Ezekiel 37:16

Now, son of man, take a single stick, and write on it: Judah and those Israelites who are associated with him. Then take another stick and write on it: Joseph (the stick of Ephraim) and all the house of Israel associated with him.

17 Then join the two sticks together, so that they form one stick in your hand.

18 When your countrymen ask you, "Will you not tell us what you mean by all this?",

19 answer them: Thus says the Lord GOD: (I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and of the tribes of Israel associated with him, and I will join to it the stick of Judah, making them a single stick; they shall be one in my hand.

20 The sticks on which you write you shall hold up before them to see.

or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead

Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

(not only are the communicating with the dead, they are making tabernacles for them!)

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]

Let me help you on your way:

[...]

And one of my favorites:

or casts spells

2 Kings 2:23-24

23

[structurecop]

And one of my favorites:

2 Kings 2:23-24

23

[Jolard]

It really does come down to what you consider the occult. What is the definition. In my mind half the things that occur in the Bible can be consider "Occult" like. The examples above are good ones. So if that is the case, what is bad about the occult?

It seems to me that if Moses or Elijah or half of these ancient prophets were alive today, most Christians would be decrying them as possessed of the devil or just simply crazy.

[Tsuzuki]

And one of my favorites:

2 Kings 2:23-24

23

[Freedom in Truth]

"Joseph Smith eagerly pursued treasure-seeking as a peculiarly tangible way to practice 'experimental religion,' as an opportunity to develop his spiritual gifts through regular exercise in repeated contests with guardian spirits. Because it was the contest itself that interested him, the repeated failure to recover gold did not discourage his efforts. . . .

Joseph was after something more than mere material wealth: by accumulating spiritual understanding he hoped to attain divine power. He began small by grappling with the guardian spirits of treasure troves in nocturnal, ritualistic digging expeditions but, through such experiences, matured his concerns toward his ultimate role as the Mormon prophet. By the time he recovered the treasure he sought, it was no longer the mammon of a few years earlier but instead a book of divine knowledge. Translating and publishing that book accelerated his pursuit of divine knowledge's power as he became a prophet guiding a growing number of devoted seekers.

JS hoped to attain divine power? Is this where the doctrine of becoming a god comes in?

If we see Smith's spiritual engagement as a continuum beginning at age fourteen in 1820 and continuing through treasure-seeking and the transitional recovery of the gold plates to his role as the Mormon prophet, then we should not be surprised that he and his followers described what he saw in 1827 differently in 1840 than they did in 1830, that their understanding evolved from talking of guardian spirits to describing angels representing Christ. If we see Smith engaged in a lifelong struggle to master spiritual knowledge, then it is natural that he and his followers continuously reinterpreted earlier episodes" (Alan Taylor, "Rediscovering the Context of Joseph Smith's Treasure Seeking," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 19 [Winter 1986]: 24).

Yet this does not account for JS changing his first vision story from seeing one personage to two, does it?

For a weak apologetic response to this issue, see the FAIR Wiki entry on Joseph Smith and the Occult.

I did not think the article addressed the criticism -

â??Critics claim that Joseph Smith's spiritual experiences began as products of â??magic,â?? the â??occult,â?? or â??treasure seeking.â?? The critics charge that only later did Joseph describe his experiences in Christian, religious terms: speaking of God, angels, and prophethood.â?

Did I miss something? I know at least some unofficial First Vision accounts include â??treasure-seekingâ?, as well as statements from JS Sr., etc. I was looking for the article to explain why the treasure-seeking context was removed. I feel the article didnâ??t respond to the specific criticism stated at all.

[Freedom in Truth]

The only waekness I saw in the FAIR Wiki article was failure to deal with Old Testament pro-hibitions against divination. (Deut. 18:10) I am not sure Joseph Smith was a bad character even if he had struggled with occult issues.

If JS had admitted that he was treasure-seeking and dabbling in the occult, then repented, and then he warned about it I could accept that. But instead the issue is covered-up and rationalized. Paul didn't cover up his sin of persecuting Christians. He called a spade a spade.

[Freedom in Truth]

I'm with you, I think it was a good thing. I don't quite get why people are fine with him studying and worshipping with other Christian sects of the day, but consider his interest in "the occult" to be some sort of fatal character flaw.

I don't know who "people" are . . . if they're traditional Christians then they would have no trouble with JS worshiping with other Christian sects because they believe that is where Truth is. They would believe the occult to be association with the demonic.

If they're Mormons then they might believe that other Christian sects have some Truth, so I guess that isn't exactly association with the demonic. Wait a minute - I just realized that in JS's day other Christian sects were of the Devil . . . I forgot that Mormons have changed on this issue. I'm with you - why would Mormons not have a problem with JS worshiping at the "Devil's" church? Good question.

[Freedom in Truth]

Here is my take on it.

Look at the Book of Mormon. If you are impressed, and see scripture, then it doesn't matter what he was doing. If you see it as a fraud, then his activities prior to the BOM will explain alot.

It all comes down to the BOM.

I'm not impressed with the BoM. I see scripture only when JS quoted the KJV Bible.

[thirdwatch512]

i have read that joseph smith was really interested in magic, and was friends with a magician. but that's typical of kids to be interested in that.

so i don't see how mormonism is occultish.. i know that early violence was common, but the same could be said about sikhism, islam, and Christianity (although hundreds of years later)

[Freedom in Truth]

I think sometimes we forget that Joseph was a young kid at this time. Think back to when you were 15 and try to remember how many dumb things you did.

Joseph even apologized for his behavior at this time. Acknowledging that is was unbecoming of one called of God.

That is quite general. Any specific apology?

[structurecop]

If JS had admitted that he was treasure-seeking and dabbling in the occult, then repented, and then he warned about it I could accept that. But instead the issue is covered-up and rationalized. Paul didn't cover up his sin of persecuting Christians. He called a spade a spade.

There's nothing to repent about. Persecuting and killing Christians = mala in se. Using perfectly biblical methods of communing with the Divine = no foul.

[Freedom in Truth]

One is a word (subject to the implications and meanings of the person saying and the person hearing). The other is a man, a real person who lived and died in the real world. He cannot be redefined, and so previous evaluations hold. There also a question of how this evaluation is made.

But anyway, the term occult is stupid if you're not going to begin the discussion with a clear definition of it. It serves only to rouse unfavorable emotions from people who are told "occult = bad" their whole lives.

We do not evaluate JS - the man, the real person. We evaluate who he was, his character, his motivation. If you thought of the occult as association with the demonic you would have to evaluate why JS was involved.

[Freedom in Truth]

Because the definition and perception of "occult" is a social and cultural construct and Joseph Smith's contributions in the form of the Book of Mormon and the Church is a matter of historical investigation.

Maybe it would be good to look at God's definition and perception of "occult". I'm not concerned with people's various opinions, are you? Wouldn't God's opinion be what mattered?

[structurecop]

Maybe it would be good to look at God's definition and perception of "occult". I'm not concerned with people's various opinions, are you? Wouldn't God's opinion be what mattered?

God hasn't said the word "occult" once. Can you find an instance where he did?

[Tsuzuki]

We do not evaluate JS - the man, the real person. We evaluate who he was, his character, his motivation. If you thought of the occult as association with the demonic you would have to evaluate why JS was involved.

That's your problem right there. The occult has no association with the demonic, and you should reanalyze your thoughts on the matter.

"Going back to the question of "ritual murders" and the vast amount of pseudo-history that has proliferated on this subject through the centuries, an important piece of real history needs to be noted.

In the days of Imperial Rome, a great deal of official tolerance was extended toward religions of various kinds that were not Roman. The imperial government, however, had no intention of applying this tolerance to any religion which was felt to be spiritually separatist or politically subversive; and since the principle of tolerance could not be publicly abandoned, those religions that were considered dangerous had to be declared guilty of abhorrent practices.

A list of such practices was in fact drawn up for the purpose, and included such things as ritual murder and cannibalism, sexual perversions at initiations or at secret ceremonies, and crimes of any kind involving children. Anything to alienate public feeling from the people whose religion was to be condemned was used. Among the religions against which parts of this list was used was the Druid religion (against which the accusation of human sacrifice, although still repeated by historians, only comes down to us from hostile Roman sources) and, of course, Christianity itself.

When under Constantine, Imperial Rome became Christian, the whole system of Roman law was taken over by the Church, including this old list of stock accusations. Since then, we encounter the list over and over, in whole or in part, but aimed now against those who in various times and places were considered to be enemies of Christian authority.

This has done untold harm in more ways than one. It has bred persecution and massacre from those times to these. It has created unspeakable fears, not only of spiritual harm but also of physical molestation, among neighbors of differing faiths and practices. Even worse, it has given a terrible code and pointed a hideous way for malcontents of every kind, social or religious rebels or outcasts, should they desire it, to act as was expected of them; and from time to time some of the weakest, or emotionally the most sick, have desired to act as was expected of them.

Besides these few extreme cases, there are always more who seek to give an appearance of such behavior, whether from bravado, or for notoriety, or to disguise an act of vandalism, or from an immature desire to see more vulnerable people suffering from shock and horror. Again, there is nothing whatever "occult" about any of this. In a few pathological cases there could be danger, but it would be physical, not psychic danger; if we feel afraid, it's important to identify the level of what we fear. In these nonoccult cases, the appropriate defense is simply the defense against threatened physical violence."

- Melita Denning and Osborne Phillips,

Practical Guide to Psychic Self-Defense and Well-Being

[Freedom in Truth]

QUOTE(Freedom in Truth @ May 9 2007, 01:08 PM)

Deuteronomy 18:10-11 â??Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.â?

I like this definition I found at http://www.messiahtruth.com/messianic.pdf -

Under Occult -

Divination . The art of obtaining secret knowledge, especially of the future; a pagan corruption/counterpart of prophecy. Inspirational divination is by demonic power, and is condemned by Scriptureâ??Devarim 1[Deuteronomy] 8:10-12.

I would say Occult practices in general are attempts to obtain â??secret knowledgeâ? and are the ungodly counterpart of prophecy. One is not receiving from God but from a demonic power. That is why God prohibited these practices.

structurecop - I challenge you to present any compelling evidence that biblical prophets operated under a power that is anything other than "occult" in nature. Whether the knowledge comes from God or another source is totally subjective. Ezekiel clearly received some revelations that ended up being false, so his knowledge coming from Godly sources should already be debatable.

As to your last statement, that is not clear to me. But, what we believe we hear can come from 3 sources - God, the demonic, or just ourselves - not just 2.

â??A pagan corruption/counterpart of prophecy.â? If this is true then there is something to be â??corruptedâ?.

Let me help you on your way:

Genesis 44:4 They had not gone far from the city when Joseph said to his steward, "Go after those men at once, and when you catch up with them, say to them, 'Why have you repaid good with evil? 5 Isn't this the cup my master drinks from and also uses for divination? This is a wicked thing you have done.' "

This sounds like a pagan practice and that Joseph was influenced by the Egyptian culture. Is this condoned by God? Of course, this event happened before the giving of the Law.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

or sorcery

Sorcery definition - the belief in magical spells that harness occult forces or evil spirits to produce unnatural effects in the world

wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

The use of magic powers derived from evil spirits.

www.godonthe.net/dictionary/s.html

structurecop -

" 19 The LORD said to Moses, "Tell Aaron, 'Take your staff and stretch out your hand over the waters of Egyptâ??over the streams and canals, over the ponds and all the reservoirs'-and they will turn to blood. Blood will be everywhere in Egypt, even in the wooden buckets and stone jars."

"Raise your staff; stretch your hand over the sea and split it. The Children of Israel will come into the Sea on dry ground. I am even now strengthening the heart of Egypt, and they will come after them..."

God-initiated activities. So, where did the power come from? Was JS directed by God when he practiced the occult? What was JSâ??s purpose?

2 Kings 2:10: Elijah answered the captain, "If I am a man of God, may fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty men!" Then fire fell from heaven and consumed the captain and his men.

â??If I am a man of Godâ? - where did Elijahâ??s power come from? Did JS claim his occult activities were associated with God? I guess he claimed one was - using seer stones to translate the BoM. But how does the LDS church say the translation took place? Do they mention seer stones? If not, why wouldnâ??t they?

Ezekiel 37:16

Now, son of man, take a single stick, and write on it: Judah and those Israelites who are associated with him. Then take another stick and write on it: Joseph (the stick of Ephraim) and all the house of Israel associated with him.

17 Then join the two sticks together, so that they form one stick in your hand.

18 When your countrymen ask you, "Will you not tell us what you mean by all this?",

19 answer them: Thus says the Lord GOD: (I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and of the tribes of Israel associated with him, and I will join to it the stick of Judah, making them a single stick; they shall be one in my hand.

20 The sticks on which you write you shall hold up before them to see.

God-directed activity. If the occult is a pagan corruption of prophecy, that assumes there are true prophetic activities to be â??corruptedâ?.

Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

(not only are the communicating with the dead, they are making tabernacles for them!)

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

God-directed happenings. No initiation on the part of any person. Who initiates communications with the dead in Mormonism? God? The dead? People?

[Freedom in Truth]

And one of my favorites:

2 Kings 2:23-24

23

[Freedom in Truth]

It really does come down to what you consider the occult. What is the definition. In my mind half the things that occur in the Bible can be consider "Occult" like. The examples above are good ones. So if that is the case, what is bad about the occult?

Occult practices are perversions of True, Godly prophetic practices. It's all about the power-source.

It seems to me that if Moses or Elijah or half of these ancient prophets were alive today, most Christians would be decrying them as possessed of the devil or just simply crazy.

That would depend on your discernment.

[structurecop]

As to your last statement, that is not clear to me. But, what we believe we hear can come from 3 sources - God, the demonic, or just ourselves - not just 2.

So when we ask God for something the answer can come from any of three sources? Doesn't make personal revelation sound very reliable.

â??A pagan corruption/counterpart of prophecy.â? If this is true then there is something to be â??corruptedâ?.

So even a great prophet like Ezekiel can be misled as to where his prophecies are coming from? I will keep that in mind.

This sounds like a pagan practice and that Joseph was influenced by the Egyptian culture. Is this condoned by God? Of course, this event happened before the giving of the Law.

Again, you would be hard pressed to determine what is and isn't condoned by God. What if the writers of Deuteronomy were influenced by the Devil when they wrote that prohibition?

Sorcery definition - the belief in magical spells that harness occult forces or evil spirits to produce unnatural effects in the world

wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

So Yahweh is guilty of sorcery?

1 Kings 22: 20 â??The LORD said, â??Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?â?? And one said this while another said that. 21 â??Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD and said, â??I will entice him.â?? 22 â??The LORD said to him, â??How?â?? And he said, â??I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.â?? Then He said, â??You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.â?? 23 â??Now therefore, behold, the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the LORD has proclaimed disaster against you.â?

The use of magic powers derived from evil spirits.

www.godonthe.net/dictionary/s.html

I'm sorry but I don't accept the definition of "occult" as cited by an ideologically-driven website like "GodOnThe.net"

God-initiated activities. So, where did the power come from? Was JS directed by God when he practiced the occult? What was JSâ??s purpose?

So if God did not initiate an activity it is therefore evil? How about when you pray? Why do you follow the ancient Near Eastern pattern of invoking deities by calling out and doing things in their name? You initiate prayer.

â??If I am a man of Godâ? - where did Elijahâ??s power come from? Did JS claim his occult activities were associated with God? I guess he claimed one was - using seer stones to translate the BoM. But how does the LDS church say the translation took place? Do they mention seer stones? If not, why wouldnâ??t they?

You betray your ignorance of Western occult/magic. Most, if not all, rituals are centered on invoking the powers of God. The method of translation of the BoM has been obscured, no doubt, due to the bigotry and intolerance of the religious mainstream.

God-directed activity. If the occult is a pagan corruption of prophecy, that assumes there are true prophetic activities to be â??corruptedâ?.

The occult is not a "pagan corruption of prophecy." It stands alone as its own religious experience that uses all the same methods and philosophy of the biblical prophets. Are you saying God changes? Does he no longer honor the beseeching of his children?

God-directed happenings. No initiation on the part of any person. Who initiates communications with the dead in Mormonism? God? The dead? People?

The Jews would disagree with your assumption that these are God-directed happenings. So if your dead relatives' rotting bodies show up at your door and claim to be sent by God, what are you going to say?

And just FYI, no one in Mormonism has advocated communicating with the dead, going out of your way to summon them, etc.

[structurecop]

Spell - a verbal formula believed to have magical force. If you consider the above a spell, then the formula would possibly be â??in the name of the Lordâ?. Where is the power from here?

So it is a spell. Kind of like the Lord's Prayer, etc. How occultic.

The occult is a pagan corruption/counterpart of prophecy. That would mean God wouldnâ??t be the power source. Was God JSâ??s power source?

When you start off with a false premise you will necessarily come to a false conclusion. In this case your false premise is that "the occult is a pagan corruption/counterpart of prophecy." Your false conclusion, then, is that "God wouldn't be the power source." We can get into how your theology grants Satan the powers of a god later, but for now we'll focus on the occult itself.

Try this on for size -- "Prophecy is occult by its very nature." Then perhaps some day you will see the light.

If so, then does the LDS church embrace JSâ??s â??occultâ? practices, claiming they were God-directed? I donâ??t think so, for the treasure-seeking setting of the First Vision account was removed.

"Treasure-seeking setting of the First Vision"? Where do you come up with this stuff? Even if it was, how much less reliable is it than the account of Samuel who was a treasure finder himself?

[Freedom in Truth]

i have read that joseph smith was really interested in magic, and was friends with a magician. but that's typical of kids to be interested in that.

so i don't see how mormonism is occultish.. i know that early violence was common, but the same could be said about sikhism, islam, and Christianity (although hundreds of years later)

I think we were discussing JSâ??s occult practices and not occultism in Mormonism. Mormonism does have practices that are considered occult by many, but I think it might be good to keep that a separate discussion. (I donâ??t see that violence is connected with the occult per se.)

As far as JSâ??s interest in magic - many accounts of JS finding the golden plates have a treasure-seeking context. Since JS stated he found the plates in 1827 he would have been about 22. Therefore just by this example we see that his interest in magic went beyond his childhood.

[Freedom in Truth]

There's nothing to repent about. Persecuting and killing Christians = mala in se. Using perfectly biblical methods of communing with the Divine = no foul.

Did JS say he was communing with the divine when treasure-seeking?

[Freedom in Truth]

God hasn't said the word "occult" once. Can you find an instance where he did?

Definition of Occult -

1. Of, relating to, or dealing with supernatural influences, agencies, or phenomena.

2. Beyond the realm of human comprehension; inscrutable.

3. Available only to the initiate; secret: occult lore. See Synonyms at mysterious.

4. Hidden from view; concealed. (freedictionary.com)

So the occult deals with a supernatural power of some sort. In our society "occult" is mostly associated with non-godly powers. I personally have only heard Mormons claim the word can be used to describe Godly phenomenon.

Are you claiming that when JS went treasure-seeking in 1827 (and before) that God was his source of power?

True - "occult" isn't a word in the Bible. That is why I went to Deuteronomy 18:10-11 -

Deuteronomy 18:10-11 â??Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.â?

"Divination" is listed. JS practiced divination. Would it had been better for you if this thread were called JS and Divination? Maybe you can think of it this way.