Joseph Smith And The Occult

[Freedom in Truth]

That's your problem right there. The occult has no association with the demonic, and you should reanalyze your thoughts on the matter.

Though dictionary definitions link the occult to any supernatural power, our society mostly links the word to the pagan (ungodly) world. Try searching on the word occult - you will get a few links to medieval topics using the word to mean "secret", but you will mostly get books, articles, etc. on witchcraft, pagan activities, satanic stuff, etc. - and such writers as Aleister Crowley. Will you get any Christian links?

As I said in Post #75, in my experience the only people I have met who don't understand the word occult to be non-Christian, non-godly, are Mormons. How do you account for this?

[Dave Ellis]

Though dictionary definitions link the occult to any supernatural power, our society mostly links the word to the pagan (ungodly) world. Try searching on the word occult - you will get a few links to medieval topics using the word to mean "secret", but you will mostly get books, articles, etc. on witchcraft, pagan activities, satanic stuff, etc. - and such writers as Aleister Crowley. Will you get any Christian links?

As I said in Post #75, in my experience the only people I have met who don't understand the word occult to be non-Christian, non-godly, are Mormons. How do you account for this?

Maybe you're talking to the wrong people. Most writers who equate 'occult' with 'satanic' don't have a clue what they're talking about. Historically, most of the major European occultists were either devout Christians or equally committed Jews.

The most overtly 'magical' practices/objects associated with Joseph come from distinctly Christian sources.

[SlackTime]

Though dictionary definitions link the occult to any supernatural power, our society mostly links the word to the pagan (ungodly) world. Try searching on the word occult - you will get a few links to medieval topics using the word to mean "secret", but you will mostly get books, articles, etc. on witchcraft, pagan activities, satanic stuff, etc. - and such writers as Aleister Crowley. Will you get any Christian links?

As I said in Post #75, in my experience the only people I have met who don't understand the word occult to be non-Christian, non-godly, are Mormons. How do you account for this?

Perhaps you should do a little more study. You might look into the legend of Solomon's ring, purported to have been given to him by an angel of God and by which Solomon could control Angels, Djinn, and Demons. Solomon was/is hailed as a great sorceror in some esoteric circles. Look into the esoterics of Kaballah, Hermeticism, and Rosicrucianism, and look into the lives of some very Christian priests, teachers, scholors, and nobility, of that age where reformation and protestantism takes its birth and you will find many who were alchemists, wizards, and sorcerors including some prominent reformers. Enjoy the journey.

-SlackTime

[Doctor Steuss]

Spell - a verbal formula believed to have magical force.

He gave a verbal "formula" because he believed it to have magical force. I don't see what you're trying to get at.

If you consider the above a spell, then the formula would possibly be â??in the name of the Lordâ?. Where is the power from here?

If it was from "the Lord," it would mean he grants someone magical powers to kill children if they make fun of baldness. Sounds like the type of thing an occult pagan god would do.

The occult is a pagan corruption/counterpart of prophecy.

So thatâ??s what â??occultâ? means. Iâ??m assuming you can provide a scholarly consensus that this is the standard definition of â??the occultâ? (preferably at least since the early 1800â??s)

That would mean God wouldnâ??t be the power source.

The fact that there is a "power source" sounds pretty occult and pagan to me.

Was God JSâ??s power source?

Why don't you ask G-d... or better yet, what did Joseph claim to be his "power source"? Did he ever claim it came from "pagan corruption/counterpart of prophecy"?

If so, then does the LDS church embrace JSâ??s â??occultâ? practices, claiming they were God-directed?

You mean like translating an ancient document by the "power source" of G-d? Yes, we do in fact embrace it.

I donâ??t think so, for the treasure-seeking setting of the First Vision account was removed.

Where did Joseph ever claim to have a "power source" while "treasure-seeking" and/or how was "treasure-seeking" a "pagan corruption/counterpart of prophecy"?

[TrashcanMan79]

Deuteronomy 18:10-11 â??Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.â?

"Divination" is listed. JS practiced divination. Would it had been better for you if this thread were called JS and Divination? Maybe you can think of it this way.

To further cloud the issue, consider, from Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary,

There was divination by dreams (Gen. 20:6; Deut. 13:1, 3; Judg. 7:13, 15; Matt. 1:20; 2:12, 13, 19, 22). This is illustrated in the history of Joseph (Gen. 41:25-32) and of Daniel (2:27; 4:19-28).

By divine appointment there was also divination by the Urim and Thummim (Num. 27:21), and by the ephod.

[T]here are instances of divination on record in the Scriptures by which God was pleased to make known his will. (1.) There was divination by lot, by which, when resorted to in matters of moment, and with solemnity, God intimated his will (Josh. 7:13). The land of Canaan was divided by lot (Num. 26:55, 56); Achan's guilt was detected (Josh. 7:16-19), Saul was elected king (1 Sam. 10:20, 21), and Matthias chosen to the apostleship, by the solem lot (Acts 1:26). It was thus also that the scape-goat was determined (Lev. 16:8-10).

...for what it's worth...

[cdowis]

As far as JSâ??s interest in magic - many accounts of JS finding the golden plates have a treasure-seeking context. Since JS stated he found the plates in 1827 he would have been about 22. Therefore just by this example we see that his interest in magic went beyond his childhood.

Defining miracles and religious experiences as magic, then all religions involve "magic" and all prophets are magicians.

Whatever floats your boat.

[Tsuzuki]

Though dictionary definitions link the occult to any supernatural power, our society mostly links the word to the pagan (ungodly) world. Try searching on the word occult - you will get a few links to medieval topics using the word to mean "secret", but you will mostly get books, articles, etc. on witchcraft, pagan activities, satanic stuff, etc. - and such writers as Aleister Crowley. Will you get any Christian links?

As I said in Post #75, in my experience the only people I have met who don't understand the word occult to be non-Christian, non-godly, are Mormons. How do you account for this?

Read this book before making such a claim again. The grandfather of the current occult renaissance was a devout Christian theologian.

The Great Secret: or Occultism Unveiled, by Eliphas Levi

[structurecop]

As I said in Post #75, in my experience the only people I have met who don't understand the word occult to be non-Christian, non-godly, are Mormons. How do you account for this?

FIT, I do believe you've invented a new logical fallacy. I'll call it "Appeal to the Ignorant Masses." This is truly groundbreaking. From now on, we can win an argument by appealing to the ignorant masses in any situation.

Examples:

"6 dimensions? Everyone I talk to except quantum physicists only believe in 4 dimensions. Truly, you must be incorrect about this 6 dimensions thing."

"Jews not eating babies? Everyone in feudal Europe believes Jews eat babies except for the Jews! How do you account for this?"

"Earth orbits around the sun? All the clergy and peasants believe the entire universe rotates around the earth! Where do you get off inventing this "science"?"

The list can go on and on, as you can imagine.

[Freedom in Truth]

So when we ask God for something the answer can come from any of three sources? Doesn't make personal revelation sound very reliable.

Funny you should ask that - some of us just spent 32 pages discussing this in the thread â??How Can You Know What You Hear . . .â?! You gotta know who youâ??re talking to! Since we can be deceived and we can be wrong we must â??test the spiritsâ?, as Paul says. We must confirm what we hear by â??examining the scripturesâ?.

So even a great prophet like Ezekiel can be misled as to where his prophecies are coming from? I will keep that in mind.

I didnâ??t say that. Ezekiel walked with God - he knew God.

Again, you would be hard pressed to determine what is and isn't condoned by God. What if the writers of Deuteronomy were influenced by the Devil when they wrote that prohibition?

Iâ??m not hard pressed to determine what is and isnâ??t condoned by God. A relationship with the demonic isnâ??t condoned by God.

Was JS influenced by the devil when he wrote?

The devil possibly influenced Deuteronomy 18:10-11? Then you would need to explain several issues -

1. God could not or would not protect His Word?

2. It was really O-K with God for someone to sacrifice his son or daughter in the fire? (a practice associated with the Canaanite god Molech)

3. It was really O-K with God for someone to engage in witchcraft? Has witchcraft ever been associated with God?

4. Exodus 22:18 "Do not allow a sorceress to live.â? Did the devil influence this verse as well? Wouldnâ??t that be kind of counter-productive?

5. The zillions of passages and verses where God commands His people to NOT be like the Canaanites are all false? Yet when the Israelites were like the Canaanites they were punished and ultimately taken away by Assyria and Babylon?

6. Acts 13:8-10 â??But Elymas the sorcerer (for that is what his name means) opposed them and tried to turn the proconsul from the faith. Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said, â??You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord?â??â?

Paul associated sorcery with the devil - was he wrong? Also see Acts 8:9-11, 21 and Acts 19:19.

7. Revelation 9:20-21 â??The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and woodâ??idols that cannot see or hear or walk. Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.â?

The write of Revelation was mistaken to suggest that magical arts were associated with the worship of demons or idols? Also see Revelation 21:8 and 22:15.

8. See BoM verses the Devil must have influenced as well (under godonthenet reply below)

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

Sorcery definition - the belief in magical spells that harness occult forces or evil spirits to produce unnatural effects in the world

structurecop - So Yahweh is guilty of sorcery?

1 Kings 22: 20 â??The LORD said, â??Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?â?? And one said this while another said that. 21 â??Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD and said, â??I will entice him.â?? 22 â??The LORD said to him, â??How?â?? And he said, â??I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.â?? Then He said, â??You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.â?? 23 â??Now therefore, behold, the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the LORD has proclaimed disaster against you.â?

Did God cast a spell? I missed an â??abracadabraâ? thing.

QUOTE - Freedom in Truth

The use of magic powers derived from evil spirits.

structurecop - I'm sorry but I don't accept the definition of "occult" as cited by an ideologically-driven website like "GodOnThe.net"

It is a definition for â??sorceryâ?, not â??occultâ?. The definition was probably influenced by Paulâ??s writings cited above. Unfortunately, sorcery has never been associated with God as far as I know - try searching on â??Christianâ? and â??sorceryâ? and see. Also -

Alma 1:32 â??For those who did not belong to their church did indulge themselves in sorceries, . . .â?

Mormon 1:19 â??And it came to pass that there were sorceries, and witchcrafts, and magics; and the power of the evil one was wrought upon all the face of the land, . . .â?

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/tg/s/230

If the â??writers of Deuteronomy were influenced by the Devil when they wrote that prohibitionâ?, then the Devil got into the BoM as well.

So if God did not initiate an activity it is therefore evil? How about when you pray? Why do you follow the ancient Near Eastern pattern of invoking deities by calling out and doing things in their name? You initiate prayer.

If God initiates an activity it is not evil. That is different from saying that if God does not initiate an activity it is evil.

We are commanded to pray and we are expected to pray. It is communication with God, which is part of walking with God (relationship). The relationship was initiated by God and prayer is part of the relationship.

You betray your ignorance of Western occult/magic. Most, if not all, rituals are centered on invoking the powers of God. The method of translation of the BoM has been obscured, no doubt, due to the bigotry and intolerance of the religious mainstream.

What God? The Christian/Biblical God (and the Mormons consider this God to be their God as well)? â??Evokeâ? Godâ??s powers? Do we control God?

Are you saying that you agree that the BoM was translated by seer stones but the story was changed because religious people wouldnâ??t accept this? So truth was changed so people wouldnâ??t be bothered?

The occult is not a "pagan corruption of prophecy." It stands alone as its own religious experience that uses all the same methods and philosophy of the biblical prophets. Are you saying God changes? Does he no longer honor the beseeching of his children?

God does not change. He honors people seeking for Him. But He does not honor disobedience.

Your definition of â??occultâ? fights standard usage, as I have shown above. Is this your way of seeing what JS was involved in as O-K? Might it be easier to argue that the activities JS did were God-directed?

The Jews would disagree with your assumption that these are God-directed happenings. So if your dead relatives' rotting bodies show up at your door and claim to be sent by God, what are you going to say?

And just FYI, no one in Mormonism has advocated communicating with the dead, going out of your way to summon them, etc.

Matthew 17:3-4 - Peter, James, and John were Jews. The disciples and first followers of Jesus were Jews.

Matthew 27:52-53 - The gospel according to Matthew is a Jewish gospel. Some Jews would disagree with my assumption - some would not. (By the way, Jesus was Jewish too.) Were these bodies rotted? Are they now dead? They were raised to life.

As far as communicating with the dead (initiated or not) - this gets into the â??baptism of the deadâ? doctrine. We would have to examine the doctrine and the scriptures to decide if Mormon communication with the dead is God-directed.

[Freedom in Truth]

So it is a spell. Kind of like the Lord's Prayer, etc. How occultic.

I said â??if you consider the above a spellâ?. I donâ??t consider it a spell.

When you start off with a false premise you will necessarily come to a false conclusion. In this case your false premise is that "the occult is a pagan corruption/counterpart of prophecy." Your false conclusion, then, is that "God wouldn't be the power source." We can get into how your theology grants Satan the powers of a god later, but for now we'll focus on the occult itself.

Try this on for size -- "Prophecy is occult by its very nature." Then perhaps some day you will see the light.

Please show that the word â??occultâ? is commonly associated with the Christian/Biblical God.

Was God JSâ??s power-source of his occult (as defined by you) activities?

"Treasure-seeking setting of the First Vision"? Where do you come up with this stuff? Even if it was, how much less reliable is it than the account of Samuel who was a treasure finder himself?

From the Willard Chase Account - http://www.mormoninformation.com/wchase.htm

â??I became acquainted with the Smith family, known as the authors of the Mormon Bible, in the year 1820. At that time, they were engaged in the money digging business, which they followed until the latter part of the season of 1827.â?

â??In the month of June, 1827, Joseph Smith, Sen., related to me the following story: "That some years ago, a spirit had appeared to Joseph his son, in a vision, and informed him that in a certain place there was a record on plates of gold, and that he was the person that must obtain them, and this he must do in the following manner: On the 22d of September, he must repair to the place where was deposited this manuscript, dressed in black clothes, and riding a black horse with a switch tail, and demand the book in a certain name, and after obtaining it, he must go directly away, and neither lay it down nor look behind him. They accordingly fitted out Joseph with a suit of black clothes and borrowed a black horse. He repaired to the place of deposit and demanded the book, which was in a stone box, unsealed, and so near the top of the ground that he could see one end of it, and raising it up, took out the book of gold; but fearing some one might discover where he got it, he laid it down to place back the top stone, as he found it; and turning round, to his surprise there was no book in sight. He again opened the box, and in it saw the book, and attempted to take it out, but was hindered. He saw in the box something like a toad, which soon assumed the appearance of a man, and struck him on the side of his head. --Not being discouraged at trifles, he again stooped down and strove to take the book, when the spirit struck him again, and knocked him three or four rods, and hurt him prodigiously. After recovering from his fright, he enquired why he could not obtain the plates; to which the spirit made reply, because you have not obeyed your orders. He then enquired when he could have them, and was answered thus: come one year from this day, and bring with you your oldest brother, and you shall have them. This spirit, he said was the spirit of the prophet who wrote this book, and who was sent to Joseph Smith, to make known these things to him. Before the expiration of the year, his oldest brother died; which the old man said was an accidental providence!â?

From Gleanings by the Way (Clark) - http://solomonspalding.com/docs1/1842ClkB.htm#pg216a

p. 225 Before I proceed to Martin's narrative, however, I would remark in passing, that Jo Smith, who has since been the chief prophet of the Mormons, and was one of the most prominent ostensible actors in the first scenes of this drama, belonged to a very shiftless family near Palmyra. They lived a sort of vagrant life, and were principally known as money-diggers. Jo from a boy appeared dull and utterly destitute of genius; but his father claimed for him a sort of second sight, a power to look into the depths of the earth, and discover where its precious treasures were hid. Consequently long before the idea of a GOLDEN BIBLE entered their minds, in their excursions for money-digging, which I believe usually occurred in the night, that they might conceal from others the knowledge of the place where they struck upon treasures, Jo used to be usually their guide, putting into a hat a peculiar stone he had through which he looked to decide where they should begin to dig.

p. 227 (Harrisâ?? account) Accordingly they went forth in the stillness of night with their spades and mattocks to the spot where slumbered this sacred deposit. They had proceeded but a little while in the work of excavation, before the mysterious chest appeared; but lo! instantly it moved and glided along out of their sight. Directed, however, by the clairvoyance of Jo, they again penetrated to the spot where it stood and succeeded in gaining a partial view of its dimensions.

http://olivercowdery.com/smithhome/1880Math.htm - p. 198 to about p. 202. While waiting to be able to retrieve the golden plates JS dug for silver. The silver kept jumping away from him, so JS had a vision -

â??the blood of a black sheep must be shed and sprinkled around the diggings. Black sheep were scarce, and while they waited for one the faithful obtained their needed rest. At length, no sheep appearing, Joe said that a black dog might answer. A dog, therefore, was killed, and the blood was sprinkled on the ground. After that the silver never went far away. Still, it waltzed about the big hole in such a lively manner that frequent tunnelling to effect its capture availed nothing. At last the prophet decided that it was of no use to dig unless one of their number was made a sacrifice. None of the faithful responded to his call, and thus the magnificent scheme was abandoned.â? (p. 200)

This is only an example of the material on this subject.

[Freedom in Truth]

The most overtly 'magical' practices/objects associated with Joseph come from distinctly Christian sources.

Explain please.

[Freedom in Truth]

Perhaps you should do a little more study. You might look into the legend of Solomon's ring, purported to have been given to him by an angel of God and by which Solomon could control Angels, Djinn, and Demons. Solomon was/is hailed as a great sorceror in some esoteric circles. Look into the esoterics of Kaballah, Hermeticism, and Rosicrucianism, and look into the lives of some very Christian priests, teachers, scholors, and nobility, of that age where reformation and protestantism takes its birth and you will find many who were alchemists, wizards, and sorcerors including some prominent reformers. Enjoy the journey.

-SlackTime

Alma 1:32 â??For those who did not belong to their church did indulge themselves in sorceries, . . .â?

Mormon 1:19 â??And it came to pass that there were sorceries, and witchcrafts, and magics; and the power of the evil one was wrought upon all the face of the land, . . .â?

Then Solomon (according to legend) and all those you mentioned would be associated with evil according to JS and the BoM, wouldn't they?

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/tg/s/230

[Freedom in Truth]

QUOTE(Freedom in Truth @ May 11 2007, 07:09 AM)

Though dictionary definitions link the occult to any supernatural power, our society mostly links the word to the pagan (ungodly) world. Try searching on the word occult - you will get a few links to medieval topics using the word to mean "secret", but you will mostly get books, articles, etc. on witchcraft, pagan activities, satanic stuff, etc. - and such writers as Aleister Crowley. Will you get any Christian links?

As I said in Post #75, in my experience the only people I have met who don't understand the word occult to be non-Christian, non-godly, are Mormons. How do you account for this?

Read this book before making such a claim again. The grandfather of the current occult renaissance was a devout Christian theologian.

The Great Secret: or Occultism Unveiled, by Eliphas Levi

I don't think anyone is doing an internet search on the word "occult". Why? I am not responsible for how the word is used - I'm just telling you what I see and find.

[Tsuzuki]

Alma 1:32 â??For those who did not belong to their church did indulge themselves in sorceries, . . .â?

Mormon 1:19 â??And it came to pass that there were sorceries, and witchcrafts, and magics; and the power of the evil one was wrought upon all the face of the land, . . .â?

Then Solomon (according to legend) and all those you mentioned would be associated with evil according to JS and the BoM, wouldn't they?

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/tg/s/230

"Man has a natural power of helping his fellow-men, by an act of will, by the spoken word, by his look and by signs. In order to exercise this power it is necessary to know and to believe in it.

[...]

To act on others without binding oneself, one needs that perfect independence belonging to God alone. Can man become godlike? - Yes, by participation!

To exercise great power without being perfectly free is to consign oneself to a great fatality. This is why it is scarcely possible for a sorcerer to repent and why his damnation is so sure.

The power of the mage and the sorcerer is one and the same; with this difference, the mage clings to the tree when he cuts off the branch while the sorcerer hangs from the very branch he is trying to cut off."

- Eliphas Levi,

The Great Secret

[Freedom in Truth]

FIT, I do believe you've invented a new logical fallacy. I'll call it "Appeal to the Ignorant Masses." This is truly groundbreaking. From now on, we can win an argument by appealing to the ignorant masses in any situation.

Examples:

"6 dimensions? Everyone I talk to except quantum physicists only believe in 4 dimensions. Truly, you must be incorrect about this 6 dimensions thing."

"Jews not eating babies? Everyone in feudal Europe believes Jews eat babies except for the Jews! How do you account for this?"

"Earth orbits around the sun? All the clergy and peasants believe the entire universe rotates around the earth! Where do you get off inventing this "science"?"

The list can go on and on, as you can imagine.

We have been discussing what the word "occult" means. Language changes - that is why it is good to check how a word is being used in the present. The internet can show you how a word is being used today.

You obviously DON'T want the word "occult" to be associated with demonic powers. Fine - though good luck fighting the world. But, anyway, what is your word for occult activities that are associated with demonic powers?

[Tsuzuki]

Read this book before making such a claim again. The grandfather of the current occult renaissance was a devout Christian theologian.

The Great Secret: or Occultism Unveiled, by Eliphas Levi

I don't think anyone is doing an internet search on the word "occult". Why? I am not responsible for how the word is used - I'm just telling you what I see and find.

Read the book.

"I have grown old and grey poring over the least known and most formidable books on occultism; my hair has fallen out; my beard has grown as long as those of the desert fathers; I have sought and found the key to the symbols of Zoroaster; I have entered the crypts of the Manes; I have come upon the secret of Hermes unawares while neglecting to keep clear of a corner of the veil which eternally conceals the great work; I know the nature of that colossal sphinx which sinks slowly into the sand as it contemplates the pyramids; I have penetrated the enigmas of the Brahmins; I know what mysteries Simeon Ben Jochai buried with him during twelve years in the desert; the lost clavicules of Solomon have appeared to me resplendent with light and I have read fluently in the books which Mephistopheles himself was unable to translate for Faust.

Nevertheless, nowhere, neither in Persia, nor in India, nor among the palimpsests of ancient Egypt, nor in the forbidden grimoires salvaged from the bonfires of the Middle Ages, have I found a book so profound, more revealing, more luminous in its mysteries, more frightening in its splendid revelations, more sure in its prophecies, more searching into the depths of man and the immense shadow of God, more grand, more true, more simple, more terrible and more sweet than the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

What book has been more read, more admired, more slandered, more travestied, more glorified, more wrested and more ignored than that one! It is like honey in the mouth of the wise and like strong poison in the belly of the world. The Revolution was organized to fight it. Proudhon writhed as he tried to spew it out. It is as invincible as truth and as elusive as error."

- Eliphas Levi,

The Great Secret

But, anyway, what is your word for occult activities that are associated with demonic powers?

"fiction"

[Freedom in Truth]

"Man has a natural power of helping his fellow-men, by an act of will, by the spoken word, by his look and by signs. In order to exercise this power it is necessary to know and to believe in it.

[...]

To act on others without binding oneself, one needs that perfect independence belonging to God alone. Can man become godlike? - Yes, by participation!

To exercise great power without being perfectly free is to consign oneself to a great fatality. This is why it is scarcely possible for a sorcerer to repent and why his damnation is so sure.

The power of the mage and the sorcerer is one and the same; with this difference, the mage clings to the tree when he cuts off the branch while the sorcerer hangs from the very branch he is trying to cut off."

- Eliphas Levi,

The Great Secret

This thread is discussing JS and the Occult. You would like the word "occult" to describe spiritual happenings but you don't want the word to be associated with the demonic. You want to ignore common usage of the word. Fine. Then give a word to describe spiritual happenings associated with the demonic and then let's move on to JS and activities he was involved in.

I do not particularly care what your author says - sorry. I DO care what the Bible says and I assume Mormons care what the BoM and their other scriptures say as well. We have already seen that the Bible and the BoM associate sorcery with the devil.

[Freedom in Truth]

Read the book.

Do you always command people? Just wondering.

QUOTE(Freedom in Truth @ May 11 2007, 04:45 PM)

But, anyway, what is your word for occult activities that are associated with demonic powers?

"fiction"

Fiction? You don't believe the demonic exists?

[Tsuzuki]

This thread is discussing JS and the Occult. You would like the word "occult" to describe spiritual happenings but you don't want the word to be associated with the demonic. You want to ignore common usage of the word. Fine. Then give a word to describe spiritual happenings associated with the demonic and then let's move on to JS and activities he was involved in.

I do not particularly care what your author says - sorry. I DO care what the Bible says and I assume Mormons care what the BoM and their other scriptures say as well. We have already seen that the Bible and the BoM associate sorcery with the devil.

And the author I'm quoting agrees that sorcery is dangerous, and makes effort toward defining it in relation to the spiritual gifts authorized by God.

[structurecop]

I said â??if you consider the above a spellâ?. I donâ??t consider it a spell.

Whether you consider it or not does not change the fact that this is a clear example of an archetypal ANE cursing.

Please show that the word â??occultâ? is commonly associated with the Christian/Biblical God.

We can't even show you that the word "Mormon" is commonly associated with the Christian/Biblical God so I don't see the use.

Was God JSâ??s power-source of his occult (as defined by you) activities?

Yes, and the artifacts we possess from Joseph Smith's family indicate the same.

From the Willard Chase Account - http://www.mormoninformation.com/wchase.htm

From Gleanings by the Way (Clark) - http://solomonspalding.com/docs1/1842ClkB.htm#pg216a

http://olivercowdery.com/smithhome/1880Math.htm -

This is only an example of the material on this subject.

You must be confused. None of these have anything to do with the First Vision. The First Vision is when Joseph Smith went out to pray in the grove and had a vision of the Father and the Son. All of these are supposedly linked with the finding of the Book of Mormon, which further proves the relationship between JS's occult and the Christian God and Jesus -- the BoM has thousands of references to Jesus Christ and God.

[structurecop]

This thread is discussing JS and the Occult. You would like the word "occult" to describe spiritual happenings but you don't want the word to be associated with the demonic. You want to ignore common usage of the word. Fine. Then give a word to describe spiritual happenings associated with the demonic and then let's move on to JS and activities he was involved in.

The word may or may not be associated with demonic. Just like "Church of Satan" may or may not be associated with the word "religion" and "church." That does not make all "religions" or "churches" the "Church of Satan." Get it?

I do not particularly care what your author says - sorry. I DO care what the Bible says and I assume Mormons care what the BoM and their other scriptures say as well. We have already seen that the Bible and the BoM associate sorcery with the devil.

Amazing. First you insist on using your made-up definitions, demand evidence to the contrary, and when someone shows you evidence you tell us you "do not particularly care."

Clearly, this conversation has outlived its usefulness. You will not come to an understanding of the beautiful, Godly aspects of the occult until you shed your preconceptions. Further, no occultist will be willing to teach you. Something about casting pearls...

[Tsuzuki]

Do you always command people? Just wondering.

No, but if that felt like a command, then maybe you should heed it. It is never a good idea to argue while under the influence of willful ignorance. If you really what an idea of what occultism is really like, it would be in your best interest to hear from the most influential person in modern occultism, who happens to be a devout Christian.

Fiction? You don't believe the demonic exists?

I believe that people can be sufficiently demonic without any help from outside forces. A competently trained occultist is actually more resistant to demonic influence.

[TrashcanMan79]

Exodus 22:18 "Do not allow a sorceress to live.â? Did the devil influence this verse as well?

Since this flies in the face of 'thou shalt not kill,' which, I am told, was written by the finger of God, Himself, it could be tempting to attribute this verse to another source (if, for no other reason, than to protect God from being inconsistent). But if this verse is not of the devil, nor of man, but indeed from God, how does the Bible believer excuse himself for not killing sorceresses?

Or has God withdrawn this command?

[Dave Ellis]

Freedom in Truth -

I think you're quite right about the term 'occult' often having negative connotations in general usage, but the definition is far from universally accepted. I know that in academic circles, for instance, the word generally retains its older usage as an umbrella term for all matters dealing with the unseen world. Given that conservative Christianity traditionally associates the term with dark or demonic practices, it's understandable that people find it shocking when some of us treat the subject as though it were a positive and wholesome thing.

The problem here is that there is no single, correct definition of occultism. The view you espouse has wide currency in some circles, but is out-rightly (and quite reasonably) rejected in many others. If we take the term in its broadest (and most innocuous) sense, then we may reasonably say that Mormonism is fundamentally an occult tradition, because the principle of ongoing revelation is at its very core. The revealing of hidden things, the unfolding of mysteries and the acquisition of spiritual knowledge and power through study and faith is the essence of this sort of occultism.

I would suggest that for the purposes of this discussion, we employ slightly less ambiguous terms so as to avoid confusion. In a recently published collection of academic articles on the subject, Claire Fanger broadly separated medieval ritual magic into 'demonic' and 'angelic' categories based upon the effects and apparatus of the respective texts being studied. Just to give you an idea of the significance of the distinction, I'll quote her descriptions from the introduction to the volume:

Demonic Magic

"If the terminology is imprecise, demonic magic as a textual genre nonetheless has certain discernible common features. The magical effects sought for are often (if not invariably) of a rather spiteful and petty-minded sort - causing disease, harm, or deformity in another person; manipulating the emotions of others to induce love or hatred between two people, or to get a person of the opposite sex to submit to the operator's desires. Demonic magic normally involves a ritual process whereby demons are forced to obey the request of the operator after being summoned and bound, not strictly by the operator's own powers, but by calling upon superior spiritual entities."

Angelic Magic

"The operations of angelic magic are generally far less familiar to the public from literature and folk tale, though they are conceivably of yet greater interest to the historian due to their intermingling of magical, devotional and mystical elements. ...the primary magical effects sought for by the operator involve obtaining visions and being infused with heavenly knowledge... Rather than the magic circles, sacrifices, conjurations and bindings that we find in demonic texts, the angelic operations involve lengthy prayers to God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, the orders of angels and other benign entities, which are petitioned at length and with elaborate biblical metaphors to grant the operator's request for knowledge and/or visions."

The division isn't artificial, if anything the various distinctions within historical occult practices are considerably downplayed in this definition. Unfortunately, in the minds of a large portion of the Christian public, any references to occultism immediately put people in mind of the darker, more notorious practices of the demonic variety and the wholesome flipside goes unacknowledged.

Most of the leading occultists in the middle ages were devout Christians who were trying to gain a deeper understanding of God's creations, believing that the universe was full of divine mysteries that would be revealed to the sincere seeker. Furthermore, they believed that the world was full of unseen forces or virtues, established by God and, if properly understood, able to be used for the benefit of man:

"For God in the first place is the end, and beginning of all virtues, he gives the seal of the Ideas to his servants the intelligences; who as faithful officers sign all things entrusted to them with an ideal virtue, the heavens, and stars, as instruments... and the Giver of Forms distributes them by the ministry of his intelligences, which he hath set as rulers, and controllers over his works, to whom such a power is entrusted in this committed to them, that so all virtue of stones, herbs, metals, and all other things may come from the intelligences, the governors.

There is therefore a wonderful virtue, and operation in every herb, and stone, but greater in a star, beyond which, even from the governing intelligences everything receiveth, and obtains many things for itself, especially from the Supreme Cause, with whom all things do mutually, and exactly correspond, agreeing in an harmonious consent, as it were in hymns, always praising the highest Maker of all things."

That quote was from Heinrich Agrippa, a devout Christian philosopher and magus from the 16th century who designed and explained the operations of the Jupiter Talisman that Joseph Smith allegedly had in his possession. He explained that the heavenly bodies had each been imbued with "a power from God, applied through the Soul of the Universe" that could be called upon via the angels that had been appointed to watch over them. That might sound strange to a lot of us today, but it's hardly demonic!

This brand of occultism usually required the magus to be morally clean, to fast and pray, to repent continually, to care for the poor etc. The ultimate goal was to draw nearer to God and appreciate his power and glory, as well as to recognise how a portion of that power had been imbued into creation itself. Nowadays we might reject a lot of the underlying philosophy as ridiculous, but one can't deny that the intentions were noble.

That Joseph Smith should have been curious enough to experiment with this sort of devotional magic personally strikes me as being completely consistent with his character and calling as a prophet. It only becomes a problem if you get your definitions mixed up. Joseph experimented with a form of angelic magic, but he certainly didn't dabble with the demonic 'dark side' as some would claim.

[Ron Beron]

Since this flies in the face of 'thou shalt not kill,' which, I am told, was written by the finger of God, Himself, it could be tempting to attribute this verse to another source (if, for no other reason, than to protect God from being inconsistent). But if this verse is not of the devil, nor of man, but indeed from God, how does the Bible believer excuse himself for not killing sorceresses?

Or has God withdrawn this command?

In a way He has. The commandment doesn't say "kill", but "murder". A large technical difference.