Egyptologist Using Hebrew To Explain

[Chris Smith]

Ken,

I didn't say "fabricated." I said "mixed up." It happens, especially in an oral presentation.

I'm not a Nibley-hater. I'm not a Nibley fan either, but I wouldn't accuse the man of fabricating sources unless I had very good reason to believe he had done so. In this case, I do not.

-CK

[Kenngo1969]

Ken,

I didn't say "fabricated." I said "mixed up." It happens, especially in an oral presentation.

I'm not a Nibley-hater. I'm not a Nibley fan either, but I wouldn't accuse the man of fabricating sources unless I had very good reason to believe he had done so. In this case, I do not.

-CK

Fair enough. You're entitled to your opinion (as "not a Nibley fan") and I appreciate your caution for not being too willing to unfairly indict him the way some others have.

[David Bokovoy]

Well, I checked out The Shrines of Tut-Ankh-Amon and have it now in my possession.

I went through the book, including footnotes, trying to find anything, but couldn't.

Perhaps Nibley was referring to an article by Piankoff?

I looked at Nibley's bibliography from the first edition of The Message of The Joseph Smith Papyri to see what he was reading from Piankoff, but the only reference that points to work done on Tut-Ankh-Amon is in fact the book The Shrines of Tut-Ankh-Amon.

If anyone has any questions regarding specific sections of the book, I'm going to hang on to it for while.

[Fortigurn]

[cksalmon]

Do you think it would be fair to suggest that, until the reference can be found, this particular Nibley comment may not be the most useful evidence of BoA's authenticity?

Best.

CKS

[Fortigurn]

I find it quite telling that the Anti-BOA nay sayers are particularly silent on this thread. :BLUSH:

Do you think it would be fair to suggest that, until the reference can be found, this particular Nibley comment may not be the most useful evidence of BoA's authenticity?

[cksalmon]

[pics removed]

Hey Fortigurn--

I'm not suggesting that Nibley was dishonest (although he may indeed have been wrong). And I'm not trying to egg anyone on. I just think that, if our resident scholars can't find the Piankoff reference in the publications we know Nibley was reading at the time, they should keep looking. Also, they should probably not tout the Piankoff-via-Nibley comment as positive evidence for BoA until such time as the reference can be tracked down.

Best.

CKS

[Nevo]

I just browsed an electronic version of Nibley's The Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri. He cites Piankoff's Le livre du jour et de la nuit (Cairo, 1942) in a discussion of the solar ship on pp. 234-35. Although this book discusses Ramesses VI's tomb, not Tutankhamen's, it's possible Nibley was mistaken in that regard (he quotes from a half-dozen or so different works by Piankoff). So I would suggest looking in either Le livre du jour et de la nuit or The Tomb of Ramesses VI.

[Chris Smith]

That's probably it! Anyone have access to either of those works?

[Fortigurn]

Hey Fortigurn--

I'm not suggesting that Nibley was dishonest (although he may indeed have been wrong). And I'm not trying to egg anyone on. I just think that, if our resident scholars can't find the Piankoff reference in the publications we know Nibley was reading at the time, they should keep looking. Also, they should probably not tout the Piankoff-via-Nibley comment as positive evidence for BoA until such time as the reference can be tracked down.

I certainly agree. The late Mr Nibley has been identified as sometimes presenting unreliable citations and notes, even by other Mormon apologists. But I don't believe he was dishonest.

Still, touting non-existed evidence is hardly the best way to convince people of one's position, as you observe.

[Jerubaal]

That's probably it! Anyone have access to either of those works?

I can take a look at Nibley's own copy of Le livre du jour et de la nuit, but my French is very, very rusty.

I can't find a copy of The Tomb of Ramesses VI in BYU's library catalog, however.

[USU78]

Here's a partial bibliography of Piankoff's stuff:

Piankoff, Alexandre. Le livre du jour et de la nuit (= BdE, 13). Cairo, 1942.

Piankoff, Alexandre und Charles Maystre. Le Livre des Portes, 1: Texte (= MIFAO 74, 75, 90). 4 Teile/Bde. Kairo: IFAO, 1939-46.

Piankoff, Alexandre. Le Livre des Portes, 2: Texte (= M

[Nevo]

I can't find a copy of The Tomb of Ramesses VI in BYU's library catalog, however.

It's there. Just search "Piankoff" and it should come up.

[Chris Smith]

It might even have Nibley's notes still scribbled in it.

[David Bokovoy]

That's probably it! Anyone have access to either of those works?

Shoot! I just left campus and would have had access to these works. We have a week off, so I won't be back for quite a while. We're going to have to rely on Jerubaal.

Don't worry about the French. Just look for the Hebrew word raqia and type up the section for us. It could be transliterated a couple of ways, but should be easy enough to spot if it's there.

[Jerubaal]

It might even have Nibley's notes still scribbled in it.

Yes, but they are likely to be scribbled in shorthand arabic, unfortunately. I'll take a look at 5ish (mountain time) which is when my final class of the day is over. I'll also see if I can still find that other piece on Ramesses Tomb.

[Jerubaal]

I took a look at the books mentioned last night, and after a quick glance at the pages where it was suggested it mught beyond, I did not find raqi'a. I intend to take a more thorough look later, but the books are non-circulating, so I'll let you know next time I go to the library.

[Nevo]

I took a look at the books mentioned last night, and after a quick glance at the pages where it was suggested it mught beyond, I did not find raqi'a. I intend to take a more thorough look later, but the books are non-circulating, so I'll let you know next time I go to the library.

I should clarify that the page numbers I listed in my earlier post refer to The Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri. Nibley's references to Piankoff's Le livre du jour et de la nuit come from pp. 17-35. Thanks for following this up!

[cksalmon]

I should clarify that the page numbers I listed in my earlier post refer to The Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri. Nibley's references to Piankoff's Le livre du jour et de la nuit come from pp. 17-35. Thanks for following this up!

Last bump for Nevo, Jeru, or Kerry.

CKS

[Ron Beron]

I was asked to find Nibley's mention of the Egyptologist Alexander Piankoff saying the Hebrew words explaining the Egyptian meanings. I found it.

It's in the tape recorded lectures from FARMS, 1990, Tape 10, 2nd side, about 2/3 the way through. Here is what Nibley noted.

Figure 4 in the facsimile 2 is the Sokar ship, the sun ship. The 2 outstretched wings were seen as symbolic of the sky. "Piankoff, when he studies this in King Tut's Tomb, he says 'this can best be described by the Hebrew word Raqia, the idea of the expanse of the starry heavens.' The same Hebrew word that Joseph Smith uses to express this." Nibley also noted the comb of King Djed which shows the same figure, and which other Egyptologists have mentioned signifies the starry heavens. The hawk with the outstretched wings is Sokar, the God of the sky, or the starry heavens.

Best,

Kerry

Without having read all the posts I found this interesting article...

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Hugh-Nibley/TrFac.html

I also found a reference to this in

http://www.kronia.com/library/journals/shipart.txt

The author finds the quote from The Tomb of Ramesses VI (New York, 1954), p. 53. Reference is made that the "outstretched wings" were comparable to the ship of heaven mentioned both in Sumerian writing and Egyptian.

Of course, this may add more clutter than light.

[cksalmon]

Without having read all the posts I found this interesting article...

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Hugh-Nibley/TrFac.html

I also found a reference to this in

http://www.kronia.com/library/journals/shipart.txt

The author finds the quote from The Tomb of Ramesses VI (New York, 1954), p. 53. Reference is made that the "outstretched wings" were comparable to the ship of heaven mentioned both in Sumerian writing and Egyptian.

Of course, this may add more clutter than light.

Hey EA--

I appreciate your digging here. I checked out the Tomb of Ramesses VI references in the Talbott article.

The myths deem this band to be a circle of "land" brought forth by Saturn in the creation; and "the Barge of Earth" (the celestial land) is at once a name of the sun god's ship and the kingdom in the sky over which the god rules.37

Thy resting place is the barge of Khepri.47

Prehistoric drawings from Egypt repeatedly associate the ship and a horned

creature, and later Egyptian art continued the theme.92

Thus in the Book of Caverns the sun god "sails over this cavern [the

enclosure] on the arms of the mysterious one."99

While interesting, they don't seem to shed significant light of Nibley's use of Piankoff to demonstrate that Raukeeyang is attested in Egyptian in the relevant spot.

I don't know if anyone has had a chance to go to the source (Tomb of Ramesses VI ) to ascertain whether the reference can be tracked down there.

At any rate, best to you.

CKS

[Jerubaal]

I should clarify that the page numbers I listed in my earlier post refer to The Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri. Nibley's references to Piankoff's Le livre du jour et de la nuit come from pp. 17-35. Thanks for following this up!

I've been away from the forums for a few days. Sorry. I'll look it up on monday.

[e=mc2]

I honestly haven't had the time to look further into this either, darn it. Sorry!

[Ron Beron]

Hey EA--

I appreciate your digging here. I checked out the Tomb of Ramesses VI references in the Talbott article.

While interesting, they don't seem to shed significant light of Nibley's use of Piankoff to demonstrate that Raukeeyang is attested in Egyptian in the relevant spot.

I don't know if anyone has had a chance to go to the source (Tomb of Ramesses VI ) to ascertain whether the reference can be tracked down there.

At any rate, best to you.

CKS

Did you try the page mentioned? I believe it was page 53. Thanks. I was able to check out the other book from the local library, but I haven't had the opportunity to peruse it.

[Ron Beron]

On further looking into this I found a French researcher named Marcel Kahne ("The Book of Abraham

and modern Egyptology" http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=e...1B2GGGL_enUS176

He references both Nibley and Piankoff, in this comment on Fac. 1

â??The furnace bridge of the sacrifices of the priests idol