Book Of Mormon & Archeology?

[charity]

Markk, you cannot compare the circumstances Nephi wrote about with Mosiah. There is some 400 years difference. What has happened to the population of the United States in 400 years, for instance?

[urroner]

Hi uronner,

Thats not what the text says, it reads...' all things, according to the Law of Moses' Your opinion does not compliment the text.

mark

John 1:12

Markk, did I say that the Law of Moses didn't exist or that there were some changes in it? Are you reading things into my text that I didn't put there?

[Markk]

HI charity

Markk, you cannot compare the circumstances Nephi wrote about with Mosiah. There is some 400 years difference. What has happened to the population of the United States in 400 years, for instance?

So are you saying then the temple was enlarged and built larger do to more people? if you read on in the text it says they did some "finish" work inside, and built a tower but there is no text saying they enlarged.

If it was, then we are still in the same boat, just 300 or so years closer. at any rate, you are just compounding the issue, but your correct by this time there would have been thousands if not hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of Jews going to the Temple camping around it with their animals and their families waiting for a tower to be built so the King could speak to them, and when he couldn't be heard he wrote out the "speach" and gave it to the people in written form.

There is nothing said in the text that the temple was enlarged, so I can make a comparison, there are pelnty of 400 plus year old castles and churches in europe that are more or less the same. If it existed was it remolded and added onto or parts taken down and refurbished, sure, you have too maintain anything, but the text stands as written, anything else is just speculation.

Urroner,

Markk, did I say that the Law of Moses didn't exist or that there were some changes in it? Are you reading things into my text that I didn't put there?

Huh...You said or implied, that becasue the temple functions changes in the OW, that Nephi would have built to that standard?

you wrote...

"...Before the time of Josiah, the Law of Moses didn't play such an important part of the temple or in Israel as it did after this time. Lehi and his family left Jerusalem not to long after the Josiah changes started to take effect and so many of the things that occured in the Second Temple Era that didn't occur in the First Temple Era didn't go with them."

That is not in the text and contradicts the text in that the text says that they followed all the law of Moses, including the " judgments, and the statutes, and the commandments". So according to the BoM this would mean the whole law as written in the Torah which is very clear and discriptive.

Take care guys

Mark

John 1:12

[cdowis]

Dan is determined, as he responds:

>You had implied that a Jewish/Nephite city or artifact would be indistinguishable from Mayan.

I asked you how to distinguish the two, since you implied that we could tell the difference. Please tell us how to do it. If I am standing in an authentic Nephite city, holding various artifacts, how would I know that they are Nephite?

BTW, the Nephites are Nephites, the Lamanites are Lamanites, they are not "Jews". Are you so silly that you are looking for menorahs, crucifix, icons of Mary? Please, tell us specifically how we are to tell the difference.

> Now you argue that they might be distinguishable but undiscovered. What do you think about Sorenson's identifications of Zarahemla with San Lorenzo and Nephi with Kaminaljuyu?

Dan, this is a serious discussion, not a silly game. Are you saying that Sorenson was able to identify Nephite artifacts? Is that your claim?

Sorenson identify these sites, not by specific artifacts, but by geographic markers, etc, based on the BOM text.

You constantly amaze me with some of the stuff you come up with.

[charity]

markk, why do you assume that the extent of the population or thepassage of years did not change anything architecurally among the Nephites, and yet the evidence that such change occurs in our modern history is all around you?

And why didn't Nephi mention if he didn't have enough men to build a duplicate of Solomon's temple, or why wouldn't Mosiah say, "this does look like Solomon's temple but it worked the same way?"

Probably the same reason why most cooking recipes don't state, "First, go out an buy a stove." You just take some things for granted.

[Kevin Christensen]

Mark wrote:

That is not in the text and contradicts the text in that the text says that they followed all the law of Moses, including the " judgments, and the statutes, and the commandments". So according to the BoM this would mean the whole law as written in the Torah which is very clear and discriptive.

Mark continues to the avoid the question of "Whose Torah?" Jeremiah refers to a falsified Torah, as does 1 Enoch, as does Samaritan tradition. The Brass plates would be pre-exilic. The Masoretic Hebrew, which I gather is what you call the Torah is not only post exilic, but post-Christian in its editing. The differences in the Nephite approach to the Law fit very nicely indeed with a reconstruction of First Temple theology that has been made using texts that pre-date the Masoretic Hebrew, and that have traditional ties to pre-exilic traditions. Try Margaret Barker's The Older Testament. Try my long essay "The Temple, the Monarchy, and Wisdom: Lehi's World and the Scholarship of Margaret Barker," in Glimpses of Lehi's Jerusalem. Try reading some of John W. Welch's essays on the Law in the the Book of Mormon. Try reading Barker's 2005 essay on the Book of Mormon as accurately reflecting pre-exilic thought.

Try bringing a little more context to your reading. (I don't expect that you will, or course.) But I do want to stand up as offering a dissenting opinion who has published 10 essays on the topic.

One thing worth mentioning is that Solomon's Temple itself has almost completely vanished from the archeological record. It has left extensive literary traces, yes. But artifacts, just a couple of tidbits. Richard E. Friedman makes it clear that Solomon's temple was built following the pattern of the wilderness tabernacle, which also has left no archeological traces, but a great many literary ones. I would not be at all troubled if someone said that Solomon built his temple after the manner of the tabernacle, but with a great many more precious things.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[urroner]

Urroner,

Huh...You said or implied, that becasue the temple functions changes in the OW, that Nephi would have built to that standard?

you wrote...

"...Before the time of Josiah, the Law of Moses didn't play such an important part of the temple or in Israel as it did after this time. Lehi and his family left Jerusalem not to long after the Josiah changes started to take effect and so many of the things that occured in the Second Temple Era that didn't occur in the First Temple Era didn't go with them."

That is not in the text and contradicts the text in that the text says that they followed all the law of Moses, including the " judgments, and the statutes, and the commandments". So according to the BoM this would mean the whole law as written in the Torah which is very clear and discriptive.

Take care guys

Mark

John 1:12

You keep using the word "contradicts," but you have failed to clearly state how it contradicts. It has been stated several times in many different threads and books that the law of Moses as practiced by Jerusalem in the time of Lehi was different than the Law of Moses practiced by the Jews of post-exilic times and was even different that that observed by the Jews of the time of Christ, but apparently this doesn't concern you. Why?

[Markk]

Hi charity,

markk, why do you assume that the extent of the population or thepassage of years did not change anything architecurally among the Nephites, and yet the evidence that such change occurs in our modern history is all around you?

And why didn't Nephi mention if he didn't have enough men to build a duplicate of Solomon's temple, or why wouldn't Mosiah say, "this does look like Solomon's temple but it worked the same way?"

Probably the same reason why most cooking recipes don't state, "First, go out an buy a stove." You just take some things for granted.

Has the Salt Lake City changed? it may have minor changes and remodeling as needed, but it is very basically the same building and Temple. What about most of the existing New England Cathedrals, out buildings added? sure, but they are considered Holy and remain basically the same. Wasn't the navoo temple basically built to the same size and standards as the first one?

The text says the interstructure changed, to a unbelievable extent, but it does not say the Temple changed.

And why didn't Nephi mention if he didn't have enough men to build a duplicate of Solomon's temple, or why wouldn't Mosiah say, "this does look like Solomon's temple but it worked the same way?"

I can't speculate on the "why didn't questions", only the "why did's", that is isogesis and does not serve text. I could say why didn't this or why didn't that all day long.

Take care Charity, thanks for your time

mark

john 1:12

[Markk]

Hi Urroner,

Because JS added "statues and commandments" as a quailifer to the context.

Tell me what changes were made and how it would effect the text?

Mark

john 1:12

[urroner]

Hi Urroner,

Because JS added "statues and commandments" as a quailifer to the context.

Tell me what changes were made and how it would effect the text?

Mark

john 1:12

Have you read anything by any scholars about the changes in the Jewish religion that took place during and after the time of Josiah?

[Markk]

Hi Urroner,

I have never read a book on it, so please tell me generally what changes were made that would effect the temple layout and needs?

Thanks

Mark

John 1;12

[USU78]

You are arguing function, and I'm arguing architecture and overall building design. That's why I referenced Nephi's description. Is there anything in Mesoamerica that looks like someone from Jerusalem built it?

No. I am talking what the damned thing looked like. The digs in the Levant showing Canaanite debirot show them to be built so much like the one in Schlomo's Temple that you can't tell the difference. If you can't tell the difference between the Canaanite one and the Israelite one (and scholars are pretty much agreed that the Israelite tripartie temple pattern was copied from the pre-existent one used by the Canaanites), why should we be surprised if a Lehite temple differs hardly at all from a pre-Classic Maya one (assuming they occupied the same time and space)?

[Brant Gardner]

A quick note on Nephi's Solominic temple. If we assume that it was built on the same (copied) architecture used for Solomon's temple, and if we assume that it was built of stone - we still might not find the darn thing. Mesoamericans had an interesting habit of building their sacred buildings on top of already "sacred" sites - usually a previous temple. Any number of early temples are buried under older structures.

Of course, there is also the problem of the ritual "killing" of religious/iconic art. Much of what is found has been deliberately broken or "killed" by drilling holes in it. Presumably this released the spirit of the icon so that it was no longer tied to the location.

So where might a 600 B.C. Solomonic be hiding? Probably underneath a much more recent temple mound - or perhaps scavaged for reusable stones, since it wouldn't have been useful to the people who inherited it after 200 B.C. (if it was still standing at that time).

Of course, we never hear of any building being built after any specific manner after that.

[Markk]

Hi Brant,

First there is no internal or external evidence what so ever that it was built in Mesoamerica, only theories, and

it would also contradict the Prophet and other founding fathers of the church, second, the BoM speaks of many types of buildings, or whole cities, telling what kinds of buildings churches, and prisons, and others where constructed with. And taxation of millions, collecting would create a very large government system that convict and prison offenders. And we know this interstructure would have to accommodate millions of people, the dump or trash pits would be enormous and like all digs a gold mine for aging and culture. I believe there is more than enough data to paint a picture of what these supposed people were like and what they would have left behind. If these cities were as they are described and if there were millions of people in these lands there would be just as much evidence for the BoM as there is for the Bible, or at the least a few tangible things.

Mark

John 1;12

[USU78]

First there is no internal or external evidence what so ever that it was built in Mesoamerica, only theories, and it would also contradict the Prophet and other founding fathers of the church, second, the BoM speaks of many types of buildings, or whole cities, telling what kinds of buildings churches, and prisons, and others where constructed with. And taxation of millions, collecting would create a very large government system that convict and prison offenders. And we know this interstructure would have to accommodate millions of people, the dump or trash pits would be enormous and like all digs a gold mine for aging and culture. I believe there is more than enough data to paint a picture of what these supposed people were like and what they would have left behind. If these cities were as they are described and if there were millions of people in these lands there would be just as much evidence for the BoM as there is for the Bible, or at the least a few tangible things.

I'd sure like to see the sources Mark is relying on for the foregoing assertion.

[Bertram]

Just came across this in MERIDIAN!

http://www.ldsmag.com/sci_rel/061212map.html

Does John P. Pratt, or Meridian, carry any authenticity in the Book of Mormon research of likely Locations/Archeology?

[Cold Steel]

While traveling through the Yucat

[Markk]

Hi USU,

I'd sure like to see the sources Mark is relying on for the foregoing assertion.

Fair enough, I

ll quote youthe BOM verses that support my statement when I get a chance.

Take care

Mark

John 1:12

[cdowis]

> And we know this interstructure would have to accommodate millions of people, the dump or trash pits would be enormous and like all digs a gold mine for aging and culture. I believe there is more than enough data to paint a picture of what these supposed people were like and what they would have left behind. If these cities were as they are described and if there were millions of people in these lands there would be just as much evidence for the BoM as there is for the Bible, or at the least a few tangible things.

1. Please name one BOM city that had a million or more inhabitants, and give the source.

2. How many people lived in Mesoamerica? Before answering you might want to read the book "1491:New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus ".

[Dan Vogel]

Dan is determined, as he responds:

>You had implied that a Jewish/Nephite city or artifact would be indistinguishable from Mayan.

I asked you how to distinguish the two, since you implied that we could tell the difference. Please tell us how to do it. If I am standing in an authentic Nephite city, holding various artifacts, how would I know that they are Nephite?

You said that they would be indistinguishable. So I said that's an assumption not necessarily supported by the text, and referred to Nephi's statement about Solomon's temple. The implication is that the Nephites attempted to duplicate their Jewish culture in the New World. But the problem of distinguishing Nephite artifacts is yours, not mine. I say the cities and artifacts are the works of the ancestors who came from Asia, and you got nothing to prove otherwise.

BTW, the Nephites are Nephites, the Lamanites are Lamanites, they are not "Jews". Are you so silly that you are looking for menorahs, crucifix, icons of Mary? Please, tell us specifically how we are to tell the difference.

By their own word, they were Jews who kept Jewish customs. That's like telling Jewish Americans that they aren't Jewish.

> Now you argue that they might be distinguishable but undiscovered. What do you think about Sorenson's identifications of Zarahemla with San Lorenzo and Nephi with Kaminaljuyu?

Dan, this is a serious discussion, not a silly game. Are you saying that Sorenson was able to identify Nephite artifacts? Is that your claim?

Of course not. You were arguing that Nephite cities with the distinguishable traits were lost in the jungle. So I pointed out that Sorenson has identified the two major cities in the BOM, which seemed to contradict your position.

Sorenson identify these sites, not by specific artifacts, but by geographic markers, etc, based on the BOM text.

Of course I know that having read his book several times.

You constantly amaze me with some of the stuff you come up with.

And you me.

[Dan Vogel]

No. I am talking what the damned thing looked like. The digs in the Levant showing Canaanite debirot show them to be built so much like the one in Schlomo's Temple that you can't tell the difference. If you can't tell the difference between the Canaanite one and the Israelite one (and scholars are pretty much agreed that the Israelite tripartie temple pattern was copied from the pre-existent one used by the Canaanites), why should we be surprised if a Lehite temple differs hardly at all from a pre-Classic Maya one (assuming they occupied the same time and space)?

Nephi said he built his temple after Solomon, not after Maya temples. I understand your arguement, but it doesn't translate very well to the situation we encounter in the BOM, unless you want to question the accuracy of the statement. You have also set up a circular argument.

We have no evidence of Nephite temples because they are indistinguishable from Mayan temples.

How do you know Nephite and Mayan temples are indistinguishable? Have you ever seen a Nephite temple?

We wouldn't know if we did see one.

Why?

Because they we are indistinguishable!

Well, I think you can distinguish a Mayan temple from Solomon's, don't you?

[USU78]

Well, I think you can distinguish a Mayan temple from Solomon's, don't you?

Nope . . . not if the tripartite debir, tzela', 'ulam form/function were discernible in the Mayan temple. I frankly don't know whether this or something like it appears in the extant pre-Classical Mayan temples (of which, if memory serves, there are only a couple of examples to look at). I think we need to get somebody who knows a bit about pre-Classical Mayan temples and their functions before we thunder on about whether they bear any form/function resemblance to the Canaanite ruins or the beasties described in Kings and Nehemiah/Ezra.

[Markk]

Hi USU,

First there is no internal or external evidence what so ever that it was built in Mesoamerica, only theories, and it would also contradict the Prophet and other founding fathers of the church, second, the BoM speaks of many types of buildings, or whole cities, telling what kinds of buildings churches, and prisons, and others where constructed with. And taxation of millions, collecting would create a very large government system that convict and prison offenders. And we know this interstructure would have to accommodate millions of people, the dump or trash pits would be enormous and like all digs a gold mine for aging and culture. I believe there is more than enough data to paint a picture of what these supposed people were like and what they would have left behind. If these cities were as they are described and if there were millions of people in these lands there would be just as much evidence for the BoM as there is for the Bible, or at the least a few tangible things.

I'd sure like to see the sources Mark is relying on for the foregoing assertion.

I will bold key words that back upwhat I wrote above. There are tomanyverse to quote so i will try to select verse that show a broad time line.

2 nep. 5:15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to bwork in all cmanner of wood, and of diron, and of copper, and of ebrass, and of steel, and of fgold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.

mos. 27:6 And there began to be much peace again in the land; and the people began to be very numerous, and began to scatter abroad upon the face of the earth, yea, on the north and on the south, on the east and on the west, building large cities and villages in all quarters of the land.

Mormon 1:7 The whole face of the land had become covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous almost, as it were the sand of the sea.

I believe this paints a picture of millions upon millions of people.

Alma 16:13 And Alma and Amulek went forth preaching repentance to the people in their temples, and in their sanctuaries, and also in their synagogues, which were built after the manner of the Jews.

This verse is loaded with data, in that it also says that the building were built in the manner of of the Jew, meaning the not only built in Jewish fashion but understood and still held to Jewish culture.

Eth.10:5 And it came to pass that Riplakish did not do that which was right in the sight of the Lord, for he did have many wives and aconcubines, and did lay that upon menâ??s shoulders which was grievous to be borne; yea, he did tax them with heavy taxes; and with the taxes he did build many spacious buildings.

Eth. 10:6 And he did erect him an exceedingly beautiful throne; and he did build many prisons, and whoso would not be subject unto taxes he did acast into prison; and whoso was not able to pay taxes he did cast into prison; and he did cause that they should labor continually for their support; and whoso refused to labor he did cause to be put to death.

Hel. 3:9 And the people who were in the land northward did dwell in tents, and in houses of cement, and they did suffer what so ever tree should spring up upon the face of the land that it should grow up, that in time they might have timber to build their houses, yea, their cities, and their temples, and their synagogues, and their sanctuaries, and all manner of their buildings.

Ether 15:2 He saw that there had been slain by the sword already nearly two millions of his people, and he began to sorrow in his heart; yea, there had been slain two millions of mighty men, and also their wives and their children.

3 nep. 3:10 And I write this epistle unto you, Lachoneus, and I hope that ye will deliver up your lands and your possessions, without the shedding of blood, that this my people may recover their rights and government, who have dissented away from you because of your wickedness in retaining from them their rights of government, and except ye do this, I will avenge their wrongs. I am Giddianhi.

A early American theme here that shows a function govermental system where the people were given certain rights

Alam 46:35 And it came to pass that whomsoever of the Amalickiahites that would not enter into a covenant to support the cause of freedom, that they might maintain a free government, he caused to be put to death; and there were but few who denied the covenant of freedom.

36 And it came to pass also, that he caused the atitle of liberty to be hoisted upon every tower which was in all the land, which was possessed by the Nephites; and thus Moroni planted the standard of liberty among the Nephites.

This shows a struggle for a free goverment that would install liberties to the people, again, a early Ameriacn tone. There are many many verses that also speak of "govenors", again showing a sytem that needs room and population to exist.

This is just a random tip of the iceberg, I could give hundreds of verses like this an many subject like shipping, armies..etc.

just think of the interstructure it would take to feed a army of one hundred thousnd men, let alone half a million, how did they feed this army?

Any please read each verse in context and see that the BoM is not about a small group of people in a small area, that is just not realistic according to the text.

Mark

John 1;12

[Markk]

Hi Cdois,

1. Please name one BOM city that had a million or more inhabitants, and give the source.

2. How many people lived in Mesoamerica? Before answering you might want to read the book "1491:New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus ".

I don't know if there was a single city that had a millon people, I would guess that Zarahemla would have to be close if not more, if you like we can discuss the interstructure that existed according to the BoM there. But, read some of the verses I posted above and you certainly get the fact that the BoM taught that millions existed in the cites and they were very lage cites, which built ships ( there would have to be a large port to get all the trees on these ships to build other cites and villages) and they were "building large cities and villages in all quarters of the land".

How many people lived in Mesoamerica? I don't know? Why does it matter, there is no proof thatthe BoM was about mesoamerica, only speculation because it has been excepted that it isn't the area where JS found the plates.

Anyway tell me how many people were in mesoameriac duringthe time lines given in the BoM and we can discuss who they were and where they lived and see if they were indeed jews that meet th econtext of the BoM, that would be a great study, thanks.

Take care

mark

John 1;12

[charity]

Markk, first, you may not use any of the Jaredite history to talk about the Nephites. So don't go to Ether when trying to make your points.

Second, thank you for calling attention to this passage in Helaman. "And the people who were in the land northward did dwell in tents, and in houses of cement, and they did suffer what so ever tree should spring up upon the face of the land that it should grow up, that in time they might have timber to build their houses, yea, their cities, and their temples, and their synagogues, and their sanctuaries, and all manner of their buildings. Helaman 3:9

So, the Nephites used timber to build their buidlings? What did Solomon use? 1 Kings 6:7 And the house, when it was in building, was built of stone made ready before it was brought thither: so that there was neither hammer nor axe nor any tool of iron heard in the house, while it was in building.

So, although we read that there were temples, they obvioulsy weren't built like Solomon's because the Nephites used timber, Solomon used stone.