Deseret,desheret

[asbestosman]

Passages from the bible have the same errors that the KJV has.

(bold mine)

[Connolly]

...This isn't much different than Louis Farraken's rants...

http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?act=Po...qpid=1208066882

Can't argue my point? Have to result to ad hominem attacks?

What a hypocrite.

[The_Monk]

You're forgetting that the BOM was supposedly translated "by the power of God." Why did God not correct that during the translation?

It does not necessarily follow that translating by the gift and power of God either makes God himself the translator (ie., responsible for word choice) or removes all human interference from the translation process.

Joseph Smith does not seem to have treated the English text as if the English came from the mouth of God himself, a la Qur'an, which mitigates that argument somewhat.

[Not quite me]

Offending post deleted. Sorry about that.

[SolarPowered]

I still dont understand why DSRT is a jaredite word when Moroni apparently had no access to Ether's original. Rather he seems to have a copy of King Mosiah's translation.

Her Amun,

How do you figure that Moroni was working from Mosiah's translation? In Ether 1:2, Moroni says that he's taking his account from the 24 plates found by the people of Limhi. Does he say differently somewhere else?

[Olavarria]

You're forgetting that the BOM was supposedly translated "by the power of God." Why did God not correct that during the translation?

Their is a difference between being translated by the power of God, and saying God translated it. Joseph's own mind was very much a part of the process. If he didnt know what a tapir or llama was, or that deer could have been domesticated as pets of a royal court, why should he have assumed so? Joseph translated the BoM.

D&C 9:

7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your dbosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.

It's a moot point anyways since riding around a tapir for warfare, agriculture, or transportation is not practical

I challenge you produce one verse in the Book of Mormon that describes people using animals for agriculture or warfare.Show me one verse were anyone is described as riding any animal.

True, horses are described in relation to chariots in the case of Ammon and Lamoni. But those "horses" are never described as pulling the chariots. Remember, the hebrew rechab can be translated as chariot or throne. Lamoni could very well have been transported on a litter , with the "horses" being used as a tributary gift for his father.

I've seen the discussion here on FAIR. People defending polygamy saying that it was spiritual polygamy and that JS didn't actually have relations with his wives.

OK, fine. As long as we are agreed that not all LDS think that those plural marriages were strictly platonic. I for one believe,as you do, that sex was involved. However, I am not above the possibility that some of them(1,2 or 3) were platonic.

FARMS is not made up of GAs.

But lets us not forget that several General Authorities have written for FARMS. Elder Dallin H. Oaks, Elder Neal A. Maxwell and at least one Seventy, Elder Hugh W. Pinnock have all written for FARMS. Also, can you tell me who brought FARMS to BYU?

"Established as a private research organization in 1979, FARMS became part of BYU in 1997. At the time, Gordon B. Hinckley, president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and chairman of the BYU Board of Trustees, observed that, "FARMS represents the efforts of sincere and dedicated scholars. I wish to express my strong congratulations and appreciation for those who started this effort and who have shepherded it to this point." He concluded by noting that he sees, "a bright future for this effort now through the university." Taken from Farms web page.

If you can throw out everything the leaders have said about the BOM for the last 170 years, what else should be thrown out?

Everything? Surely you jest. You must have been tought that LDS are supposed to surrender al thought to the GA's. Brother Brigham would disagree:

â??I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self security. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not.

( Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe [1954], 135.)

Well, the church leaders have taught that coffee, tea, and red wine are bad for about 100 years or so. Science has now proven them to be beneficial in moderation. Science also has proven illegal drugs to be bad, which the WoW doesn't mention at all. Will the church revise the WoW to only to include tobacco and excessive alcohol use

I believe that the health aspects of WoW are overemphaszed. The following is why I keep it: D&C 89:19, 19 "And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures. "

THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM

TRANSLATED FROM THE PAPYRUS, BY JOSEPH SMITH

A Translation of some ancient Records, that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt.â??The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus. See History of the Church, vol. 2, pp. 235, 236, 348â??351.

Oh, I know what he did. But that doesnt explain How he did it.

I have alaways been consistant in my assertion that I dont know the Prophet's modus operandi. Is the BoA the translation of a missing papyri? Dunno. Is the BoA a "translation" of a loosly related text ala the BoMoses? Dunno. Is the BoA recieved by "pure revelation" ala The Testimony of John in the D&C? Dunno. Maybe it is a combination of all three.

The Anti's however claim to know Joseph's modus operandi via the 1 character=a paragraph theory. The assert that Joseph was bright enough, through a study of hebrew, to guess egyptian wrote right to left but was so ignorant as to assume that 5,6 consecutive characters equal a book. Their basis, the KEP. That doesnt seem very honest to me.

[katherine the great]

I think Hugh Nibley's explanation is ridiculous. "Deseret" was probably just a word that the Jaredites had borrowed from somewhere else, or coined themselves, hence the need for an interpretation. For instance: "Joshua gave Dan a wedgie which by interpretation means pulling his underpants into his crack."

[Scottie]

I think Hugh Nibley's explanation is ridiculous. "Deseret" was probably just a word that the Jaredites had borrowed from somewhere else, or coined themselves, hence the need for an interpretation. For instance: "Joshua gave Dan a wedgie which by interpretation means pulling his underpants into his crack."

Thanks for the laugh! That was great!

Except that Deseret->Honeybee is a noun to noun translation. So, more correct would be, "Jules pulled his peacemaker, which interpreted means big a$$ gun, and shot Marvin in the face."

[SolarPowered]

The question I find myself asking is why Moroni felt it necessary to write the untranslated "deseret', and then interpret it for us? There are thousands of nouns in the BoM; what caused him to do this with this particular word? (And the two or three other places this is done.) You would typically expect that he would just say that they had honeybees, and be done with it.

While I'm not one to read twelve levels of deeper meaning it every turn of phrase in the scriptures, I do wonder what he thought we would get out of this? That he expected that we might find "deseret" somewhere is one thought that comes to mind. (Actually, it's the only thought that comes to mind tonight. I guess I need to work on that "creativity" thing.)

I still dont understand why DSRT is a jaredite word when Moroni apparently had no access to Ether's original. Rather he seems to have a copy of King Mosiah's translation.

Her Amun,

How do you figure that Moroni was working from Mosiah's translation? In Ether 1:2, Moroni says that he's taking his account from the 24 plates found by the people of Limhi. Does he say differently somewhere else?

I'm still interested in your answer to this question. (I'm not trying to be pushy, I just suspect that the position of my original question in the thread is such that you missed it while you were typing the immediately-following post.)

[cinepro]

It does not necessarily follow that translating by the gift and power of God either makes God himself the translator (ie., responsible for word choice) or removes all human interference from the translation process.

Joseph Smith does not seem to have treated the English text as if the English came from the mouth of God himself, a la Qur'an, which mitigates that argument somewhat.

Sorry, but God has to be the translator. Neither Joseph nor Oliver could read or understand Reformed Egyptian, so God had to provide the translation from Reformed Egyptian to English. Especially if the plates weren't physically present for the process. And double especially if you want to argue for a precision that preserves chiasmus and other hebraisms.

[SolarPowered]

I think Hugh Nibley's explanation is ridiculous. "Deseret" was probably just a word that the Jaredites had borrowed from somewhere else, or coined themselves, hence the need for an interpretation. For instance: "Joshua gave Dan a wedgie which by interpretation means pulling his underpants into his crack."

I quite agree. "Deseret" is a word from the language of the Jaredites, which in my understanding is the language that was spoken before the Flood and the Tower of Babel. While I don't know how extensive the corruption of the languages was at Babel, it seems to me that the honeybee probably wouldn't be "deseret" in the changed languages.

More to the point, Nibley's connection in Egyptian just doesn't make sense to me--I see there a connection that was created much later by the traditions relating to the crown of Egypt, not something that has echos of an Adamic "deseret".

If I were going to look for the word "deseret" somewhere, it would be in the New World, in the remains left by the Jaredites, or in the American languages that would have been influenced by the Jaredites.

[Olavarria]

How do you figure that Moroni was working from Mosiah's translation? In Ether 1:2, Moroni says that he's taking his account from the 24 plates found by the people of Limhi. Does he say differently somewhere else?

Remember, no one knew what they said until Mosiah translated them. The account of the Jaredites was written on 24 plates which were then translated by Mosiah. Are you insinuating that Moroni could read "jaredite"(whatever that was).

[Olavarria]

I see there a connection that was created much later by the traditions relating to the crown of Egypt, not something that has echos of an Adamic "deseret".

Who said the jaredites spoke adamic?

Who said Moroni was reading "jaredite", whatever that was. Remember that no one could tell what the 24 plates said until Mosiah traslated them.

I think Mosiah translated the plates into reformed egyptian. Also, I think that it is likly that Moroni spoke a different language or at least a differnt dialect than Mosiah(remember they were seperated by 400 years and they came from different locals). I dont know why a translation for dsrt is translated. But the fact that it is translated does not mean that dsrt is an adamic word.

[It occurs to me . . .]

If we run into something that is contrary to some deeply held belief, we are likely to do all kinds of mental gymnastics to try to maintain the belief. That is why we see often desperate attempts to refute something, such as NHM.

Sorry but this mindset seems to be much more prevalent in the attempts to explain the BOM, BOA, polygamy, and this word Deseret. BTW I hope you don't mind if I make part of this my signature?

The question I find myself asking is why Moroni felt it necessary to write the untranslated "deseret', and then interpret it for us? There are thousands of nouns in the BoM; what caused him to do this with this particular word? (And the two or three other places this is done.) You would typically expect that he would just say that they had honeybees, and be done with it.

While I'm not one to read twelve levels of deeper meaning it every turn of phrase in the scriptures, I do wonder what he thought we would get out of this? That he expected that we might find "deseret" somewhere is one thought that comes to mind. (Actually, it's the only thought that comes to mind tonight. I guess I need to work on that "creativity" thing.)

If this were his purpose, I'm sure there are thousands of words he could have left in the original. Words that Hugh Nibley could have tied back into Egyptian heiroglyphics, and thus strenghthened all of our testimonies of the BOM. Is there a maximum quota of allowable verifiable words?

[SolarPowered]

How do you figure that Moroni was working from Mosiah's translation? In Ether 1:2, Moroni says that he's taking his account from the 24 plates found by the people of Limhi. Does he say differently somewhere else?

Remember, no one knew what they said until Mosiah translated them. The account of the Jaredites was written on 24 plates which were then translated by Mosiah. Are you insinuating that Moroni could read "jaredite"(whatever that was).

I'm not insinuating anything; I'm stating that Moroni stated that he made his account from the 24 plates. And since he did so, he must have been able to read the language of the Jaredites.

Since Moroni and Mosiah were both prophets, and both had access to the Urim and Thummim, I don't see why Moroni should have been any less able to read the plates than Mosiah.

Who said the jaredites spoke adamic?

OK, perhaps not "Adamic." They spoke whatever was the common language that all of mankind spoke before the confounding of the languages at the Tower of Babel. Some have called that "Adamic." I agree that that there are various suppositions built into calling that language "Adamic", so I'll just call it "the language of the Jaredites."

[asbestosman]

Sorry, but God has to be the translator. Neither Joseph nor Oliver could read or understand Reformed Egyptian, so God had to provide the translation from Reformed Egyptian to English. Especially if the plates weren't physically present for the process. And double especially if you want to argue for a precision that preserves chiasmus and other hebraisms.

I think the seer stone functioned like the babel fish. Maybe instead of hearing or seeing it in English, you simply understand what was meant without knowing the precise words. Wouldn't Chiasmus still be preserved because the thoughts would be. Of course the and/if thing wouldn't (and I'm perfectly willing to discard it).

[It occurs to me . . .]

I have discovered the true origin of the word Deseret. This will greatly impact our understanding of the BOM, and Christianity in general.

The etymology comes from the Japanese characters:

手　"te" or "de" (hand)

巣　"su" (beehive)

列島　"rettou" (archipelego)

This would be rendered

手巣列島　 or "desurettou"

A rough translation would be "The archipelego of the handmade beehives". This is obviously superior to the Nibley Egyptian translation as this actually contains the word "beehive" which is what Deseret was considered to mean. This connects to the symbolism used in temple architecture, and the Great Seal of the State of Utah. There is also the Masonic beehive connection which ties in here.

The Japanese are genetically connected to the Mongols, (the direct ancestors of Native Americans), rather than the Chinese as is widely assumed. I'm sure the Jaredites had contact with Japan during their travels. Perhaps they stopped here on their way to the Americas to grab some fresh sushi, and took on a few extra wives at the same time. This will explain the Lamanite DNA problem.

A further connection with Christianity is the little known fact that the actual tomb of Jesus is in northern Japan. Jesus' brother took his place on the cross, Jesus escaped to Japan and lived out his days here. Please see link. Thus putting his seal of approval on Japan and making "one eternal round" as it were, Alpha and Omega, returning to the place where all things began, to bring an end to his life. The symbolism just kills me! WOW! This all calls for a drastic rethinking of assumptions that have been held for centuries both in and out of the church. I knew I was living in Eden all this time. It's just too beautiful here!

Can I work for FARMS now?

edited to add further evidence from this website

Traditional methods of beekeeping persist along the ancient roads of Japan's mountainous regions. From the 8th century on, honey was a precious battlefield supply, and historians guess that honey-cultivation was encouraged starting around this time. The story of Japanese beekeeping is like a hidden oral history of ancient Japan. Moreover, it is a traditional regional industry that can be put into active use today as a valuable resource for regional economic stimulation as well as for research on nature-based manufacturing methods, something highly desirable today. . . . Ancient beekeeping tradition seems to harbor several suggestions for future directions in nature engineering.

The 8th century bit there is obviously the ideas of men who didn't have a full understanding. These minor inconsistencies should in no way alter the impact of this important find!

[It occurs to me . . .]

And finally this from Kevin Barney's article

This argument is not only very subtle but, quite frankly, brilliant. As I have indicated, it is considered the standard etymology of the word among LDS scholars, and this paper by itself is not going to change that. But I have long felt a certain ambivalence about this suggestion. It is almost too brilliant, by half. The obscurity and cleverness of the connection to some extent interfere with its believability. Had the Book of Mormon word been simply bit, that would be one thing. But for the Jaredites to use a word for the red crown of the king of Lower Egypt with an obscure connection to the bee, in precisely the opposite of the way the Egyptians used the word (the Egyptians would write the red crown symbol in lieu of the bee symbol and pronounce bit â??beeâ?; the Jaredites apparently when thinking of â??beeâ? used the word for the red crown, d

[Hawkmoon]

I think FARMS are probably the most effective "antis." When I had questions, I clearly saw the mental gymnastics and tortured explanations of FARMS and other bad apologetics.

This is just plain silly! Really, you critics need to get a new reason as to why FARMS and FAIR destroy testimonies. Furthermore, if you couldn't see the "mental gymnastics and tortured explanations" of the critics then, really, you couldn't see clearly at all.

[Olavarria]

I'm not insinuating anything; I'm stating that Moroni stated that he made his account from the 24 plates. And since he did so, he must have been able to read the language of the Jaredites.

Mosiah 8: 9

9 And for a testimony that the things that they had said are true they have brought atwenty-four plates which are filled with engravings, and they are of pure gold.

Mosiah 28:9

17 Now after Mosiah had finished translating these records, behold, it gave an account of the people who were cdestroyed, from the time that they were destroyed back to the building of the dgreat tower, at the time the Lord econfounded the language of the people and they were scattered abroad upon the face of all the earth, yea, and even from that time back until the creation of Adam.

18 Now this account did cause the people of Mosiah to mourn exceedingly, yea, they were filled with sorrow; nevertheless it gave them much knowledge, in the which they did rejoice.

19 And this account shall be awritten hereafter; for behold, it is expedient that all people should know the things which are written in this account.

20 And now, as I said unto you, that after king Mosiah had done these things, he took the plates of abrass, and all the things which he had kept, and conferred them upon Alma, who was the son of Alma; yea, all the records, and also the interpreters, and conferred them upon him, and commanded him that he should keep and preserve them, and also keep a record of the people, handing them down from one generation to another, even as they had been handed down from the time that Lehi left Jerusalem.

Alma27:21-22

21 And now, I will speak unto you concerning those twenty-four plates, that ye keep them, that the mysteries and the works of darkness, and their secret works, or the secret works of those people who have been destroyed, may be made manifest unto this people; yea, all their murders, and robbings, and their plunderings, and all their wickedness and abominations, may be made manifest unto this people; yea, and that ye preserve these interpreters.

22 For behold, the Lord saw that his people began to work in darkness, yea, work secret murders and abominations; therefore the Lord said, if they did not repent they should be destroyed from off the face of the earth.

Ether 1:2-3

2 And I take mine account from the twenty and four plates which were found by the people of Limhi, which is called the Book of Ether.

3 And as I suppose that the first part of this record, which speaks concerning the creation of the world, and also of Adam, and an account from that time even to the great btower, and whatsoever things transpired among the children of men until that time, is had among the Jewsâ??

The Plates of Ether, which present a history of the Jaredites. This record was abridged by Moroni, who inserted comments of his own and incorporated the record with the general history under the title â??Book of Ether.â?

Going straight from the relevant verses, it isnt clear as to whether Moroni was using Mosiah's translation of the plates or was translating the plates himself.

what we do know

1) Mosiah's translation was not mentioned after the BoMosiah.

2) Moroni does not claim to make a new translation.

3)It appears the 24 plates were passed on to Moroni.

The text itself isnt claer as to whether the word deserer is a jaredite word or a nephite word.

what we dont know

3 possibilites exists

1)Moroni was giving the nephite translation of a jaredite word.

2) Moroni was giving a "modern" nephite translation of an "old"nephite word.

3)Joseph Smith translating the reform egyptian, left the egyptian word DSRT(as he did with the untranslated corelom and cummum) and gave the translation himself. The original plates may have read:

"And they did also carry with them honey bee; and thus they did carry with them swarms of bees, and all manner of that which was upon the face of the land, seeds of every kind."

All I am saying is that 1)the BoM claims to be written in R.Egyptian. 2)Their isnt enough evidence for dsrt to be a jaredite word from the text alone.

Since Moroni and Mosiah were both prophets, and both had access to the Urim and Thummim, I don't see why Moroni should have been any less able to read the plates than Mosiah.

I never said he was less capable. However, he wouldn't need to translate them if their was a translation already available. For example, a non-english edition of the BoM comes from a translation of the english translation of the BoM. However, if you read a non-english BoM intro it does not say "the Libro de Mormon, taken from the english translation of Jose Smith, which was taken from the plates of los Nefitas." Unless you can show me a verse that says "I Moroni made another translation of the Jaredite plates, because we lost a copy of Mosiah's", any assertion that he did so is based on what?

OK, perhaps not "Adamic." They spoke whatever was the common language that all of mankind spoke before the confounding of the languages at the Tower of Babel.

Who said all mankind was at the tower? I believe science has shown that people had been in Africa,Australia and even the America's during the time of the tower.

Some have called that "Adamic." I agree that that there are various suppositions built into calling that language "Adamic", so I'll just call it "the language of the Jaredites."

As do I.